Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:14 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Queequeg wrote:There is a problem with "inherent"... Beyond the problems of translation, but ultimately at the level of conventions - the problem with words like "inherent" is ultimately the problem inherent in language
Is the Chinese character that is being rendered as the word "inherent" equivalent to svabhāva, as in, svabhāvadhātu?

Edit: Apparently one way of translating inherency, svabhāva, in Chinese, is 自性. Is that what the text has in it?
might be. but that's not the point. Minobu was picking up on the use of the word and reading more into it than intended.

We're talking about Buddhanature and how that is inherent. If you're familiar with the assertion of universal Buddhanature, then you understand what is meant by "inherent" in this context.
Well what Minobu seemed to be suggesting was inherency of being, svabhāva-dhātu, which is considered, by some, a heresy of the Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma. However just because some identify the concept as a heresy, does not mean it necessarily is one. If it appeared in the writings of Nichiren, or in the Lotus Sutra, that would be an interesting development in forming a correct conception of inherent/original/primordial buddha-nature, but I digress. I apologize if my inquiry was unwelcome and detracted from the discussion, that wasn't my intent. My Chinese is poor, so I lack the ability to investigate it myself. My apologies for off-topic chatter.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:18 pm

Coëmgenu wrote: I apologize if my inquiry was unwelcome and detracted from the discussion, that wasn't my intent. My Chinese is poor, so I lack the ability to investigate it myself. My apologies for off-topic chatter.
There is nothing to apologize for. You were seeking a more definite discussion.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

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Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:18 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Queequeg wrote:There is a problem with "inherent"... Beyond the problems of translation, but ultimately at the level of conventions - the problem with words like "inherent" is ultimately the problem inherent in language
Is the Chinese character that is being rendered as the word "inherent" equivalent to svabhāva, as in, svabhāvadhātu?

Edit: Apparently one way of translating inherency, svabhāva, in Chinese, is 自性. Is that what the text has in it?
might be. but that's not the point. Minobu was picking up on the use of the word and reading more into it than intended.

We're talking about Buddhanature and how that is inherent. If you're familiar with the assertion of universal Buddhanature, then you understand what is meant by "inherent" in this context.
Ok so yes i agree. but then again especially if we are going to talk of Buddha Nature then we are using a Buddhist term.
There has to be an explicit reason for us to arrive at this point in OUR history with two things from Bodhisatva Nagarjuna.
His rescuing and bring us the Lotus sutra in writing for the first time.
And the first time the concept of emptiness is revealed , under the words Sunyata.

I don;t get the big whoop whoop.

Emptiness is not nothingness. it is a reference to that nature that everything is empty of inherent existence or non existence.
the whole point is to arrive at the middle way between looking at things as really here and not here. the illusion.
Why..cause nothing exists on it's own.

everything is made up from different things ..and those things are made up of different things and so on...

He must have wanted us to keep this in mind in our practice and our realizations.

I could do this whole thing to get you to see emptiness ..sort of...glimpse of ...an idea ...pointed to..

because thats what it is anyway.. a way of looking at things from the middle way.

it's not a tolerance issue or a moderation issue...it's realizing everything is an illusion and yet there is the conventional aspect to it .

i get what queequeg is saying here...and it is important , for people to to sort of understand that there is a Buddha Nature...But today I thought .."Man this whole inherent thing goes against the grain of what Bodhisatva Nagarjuna left us..and there has to be a reason.


It's not that Nichiren Shonin left it out or something..He had His own Mission..and what a Mission that was...how much time and energy did He want to spend teaching Sunyata.. to Him it wasn't really necessary. MAYBE>>>

Maybe the peasants would blow their noodle...the Monks and priests knew about it anyway...and He had so much more to focus on....Look at Zhi yi ..

He spent His life focused solely on His thing...Did He need to give lectures on Sunyata... Bodhisatva Nagarjuna did that already.

these people were guided and in a way forced to focus on certain things at certain times ..

But now we have it all in our laps...or laptops...lol...


d

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:26 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:what Minobu seemed to be suggesting was inherency of being, svabhāva-dhātu, which is considered, by some, a heresy of the Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma. However just because some identify the concept as a heresy, does not mean it necessarily is one. If it appeared in the writings of Nichiren, or in the Lotus Sutra, that would be an interesting development in forming a correct conception of inherent/original/primordial buddha-nature, but I digress. I apologize if my inquiry was unwelcome and detracted from the discussion, that wasn't my intent. My Chinese is poor, so I lack the ability to investigate it myself. My apologies for off-topic chatter.
i don't know what svabhāva-dhātu is.
All i was talking about is Bodhisattva Nagarjuna's teaching on emptiness. the whole Madhyamika thing i believe.
How can that be heresy?
thats nuts.
lol.. or is it?
explain please .

i'm sort of ticked no one howled with laughter for my insertion of nose hair into the picture...very modernesque of me..and so avant garde BBuddhista

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:41 pm

Minobu wrote:svabhāva
Selfness. Own Nature.

The inherency you pointed out is not acceptable.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

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Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:48 pm

Minobu wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:what Minobu seemed to be suggesting was inherency of being, svabhāva-dhātu, which is considered, by some, a heresy of the Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma. However just because some identify the concept as a heresy, does not mean it necessarily is one. If it appeared in the writings of Nichiren, or in the Lotus Sutra, that would be an interesting development in forming a correct conception of inherent/original/primordial buddha-nature, but I digress. I apologize if my inquiry was unwelcome and detracted from the discussion, that wasn't my intent. My Chinese is poor, so I lack the ability to investigate it myself. My apologies for off-topic chatter.
i don't know what svabhāva-dhātu is.
All i was talking about is Bodhisattva Nagarjuna's teaching on emptiness. the whole Madhyamika thing i believe.
How can that be heresy?
thats nuts.
lol.. or is it?
explain please .

i'm sort of ticked no one howled with laughter for my insertion of nose hair into the picture...very modernesque of me..and so avant garde BBuddhista
Svabhāva, or inherent, literally means "own-being". Svabhāvadhātu is a fundamental nature that has the quality of "own-being". You statement here
Minobu wrote:nothing exists in its own
is a rejection of svabhāvadhātu. Svabhāvadhātu is generally considered a clasical heresy of the Hīnayāna (not the Theravāda) against which some believe Nāgārjuna was reacting when he formulated his Mūlamadhyamakakārikā. However, Dharmakāya is often, paradoxically, considered to exhibit svabhāvadhātu, so the catagorization of svabhāvadhātu as a heresy outright may be hasty. My post above was due to a misunderstanding of what you were saying.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:53 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Minobu wrote:svabhāva
Selfness. Own Nature.

The inherency you pointed out is not acceptable.
ok so i'm slow..
madhyamika does not imply own nature.. even the ten worlds are contained in each other which are contained in each other.

and how is the concept of nothing is inherent not acceptable... It's the life work Of Bodhisatva Nagarjuna who also gave us The Lotus Sutra, in a sense.

so you are saying things can sometimes be inherent outside of the confines of literal conventional means of a talking point.

but when it comes to the nature of reality nothing is inherent as far as i can see from what the teaching of madhyamika tells us.

although life work is kinda of loosely based for He lived for nine hundred years and i believe had to be killed to eradicate a karma from a killing He did of an ant in the distant past.

that ant part could be another Bodhisattva.

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:55 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Minobu wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:what Minobu seemed to be suggesting was inherency of being, svabhāva-dhātu, which is considered, by some, a heresy of the Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma. However just because some identify the concept as a heresy, does not mean it necessarily is one. If it appeared in the writings of Nichiren, or in the Lotus Sutra, that would be an interesting development in forming a correct conception of inherent/original/primordial buddha-nature, but I digress. I apologize if my inquiry was unwelcome and detracted from the discussion, that wasn't my intent. My Chinese is poor, so I lack the ability to investigate it myself. My apologies for off-topic chatter.
i don't know what svabhāva-dhātu is.
All i was talking about is Bodhisattva Nagarjuna's teaching on emptiness. the whole Madhyamika thing i believe.
How can that be heresy?
thats nuts.
lol.. or is it?
explain please .

i'm sort of ticked no one howled with laughter for my insertion of nose hair into the picture...very modernesque of me..and so avant garde BBuddhista
Svabhāva, or inherent, literally means "own-being". Svabhāvadhātu is a fundamental nature that has the quality of "own-being". You statement here
Minobu wrote:nothing exists in its own
is a rejection of svabhāvadhātu. Svabhāvadhātu is generally considered a clasical heresy of the Hīnayāna (not the Theravāda) against which some believe Nāgārjuna was reacting when he formulated his Mūlamadhyamakakārikā. However, Dharmakāya is often, paradoxically, considered to exhibit svabhāvadhātu, so the catagorization of svabhāvadhātu as a heresy outright may be hasty. My post above was due to a misunderstanding of what you were saying.
totally cool i learn a lot from you and dig you the most( said in my best pulp fiction Vincent Vega voice )... and hope you stay and don't run away from my meanderings.

lol...

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:07 am

Minobu wrote:
Queequeg wrote:
Minobu wrote:svabhāva
Selfness. Own Nature.

The inherency you pointed out is not acceptable.
ok so i'm slow..
madhyamika does not imply own nature.. even the ten worlds are contained in each other which are contained in each other.

and how is the concept of nothing is inherent not acceptable... It's the life work Of Bodhisatva Nagarjuna who also gave us The Lotus Sutra, in a sense

The inherency you pointed out that is not acceptable.

I left out a word.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:07 pm

I am a bit of a novice when it comes to ancient Indic cosmology, but I found this quote on page 367 a bit odd:
The sahā world Shakyamuni Buddha revealed in the “Life Span” chapter is the eternal pure land, impervious to the three calamities and to the cycle of the four kalpas.
Its only impervious to four kalpas? I thought his Pure Land is not destroyed at all, by any number of kalpas or calamities. I take it these special 'four' kalpas are in reference to something I am not getting, probably something to do with Indic cosmology.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:57 pm

Maha kalpa has four phases. These cycle indefinitely.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:04 pm

Queequeg wrote:Maha kalpa has four phases. These cycle indefinitely.
I am not posting this because I accuse you of falsehoods. Nor do I am posting this because I doubt your knowledge, but rather, I post this because I love to read. Where did you get this knowledge of mahākalpa? Is it from a sūtra or from the writings of Nichiren? Or from a familiarity with general Indic cosmology?
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:01 pm

Oh, don't take my brevity as anything other than the practical limitations of the device I communicate with. Now I'm on a keyboard and can be my more verbose self.

The four kalpas of the Mahakalpa is, as far as I know, standard Mahayana Buddhist cosmology.

One of the Indian sources is in Abhidharmakosa. If you are looking for a concise contemporary explanation of Buddhist cosmology as understood in Japanese Buddhism (which may differ in some respects from Indian sources, but I don't know) check out Buddhist Cosmology

https://www.amazon.com/Buddhist-Cosmolo ... 4333016827
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
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Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:49 pm

Question 20 – The questioner asserts again that Nichiren has not yet provided proof of the realm of Buddha in our minds.

The point of the question is whether Buddhahood is something acquired or whether it is something already an intrinsic aspect of our selves. If it is acquired, then the Buddha is separate from us. If it is intrinsic, on the other hand, then out thoughts, words and actions are already the path of Buddhahood.

Nichiren first quotes from the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra. The following is the full context of the quote, with the actual passage quoted in bold:
“Good men, the seventh inconceivable benefit and power of this sutra is this: If good men or good women, while the Buddha is in the world or after he has passed into extinction, are able to hear this sutra and rejoice and put faith and hope in it, greeting it as something rare; if they accept, uphold, read, recite, copy, explain, preach, and practice it as it directs, conceiving a desire for enlightenment, cultivating good roots, nurturing minds of great compassion, and desiring to save all living beings from their sufferings, then although they have not yet been able to practice the six paramitas, the six paramitas will of themselves appear before them. In their present bodies they will be able to gain the truth of birthlessness, their earthly desires and their sufferings of birth and death will in one moment be cast off and destroyed, and they will ascend to the seventh stage of the bodhisattva.

“Suppose, for example, there is a stalwart hero who wipes out the king’s enemies. Once these enemies have been destroyed, the king rejoices greatly and takes half of his kingdom and presents it all to the hero as a fief. The good men and good women who uphold this sutra will be similar to this. They will be the bravest and most heroic of all practitioners. And though they do not seek for them, the six paramitas, those treasures of the Dharma, will come to them naturally. Their enemies, birth and death, will of themselves be scattered and destroyed, and they will be enlightened to the truth of birthlessness, which is like receiving half the buddha land in fief and its treasures as a gift to enjoy in tranquillity.

“Good men, this is called the seventh benefit and inconceivable power of this sutra.
Next he quotes the Lotus Sutra:
all press their palms and with reverent minds
wish to hear the teaching of perfect endowment.
The full context of this line is the discourse between Shariputra and the Buddha in the Second Chapter. The Buddha has just praised his awakening and told the assembly they can’t understand his wisdom. The assembly is perplexed, and Shariputra speaking on their behalf explains this unease,asking the Buddha to teach this “perfect endowment”. The Buddha responds that he can’t because no one will understand and will instead fall into doubt. Shariputra persists, asking three times, the Buddha agrees, but before he can start, 5000 people in the assembly get up and leave. The Buddha lets them go, and then begins to explain that all the Buddhas teach with the same purpose – even though their teachings may be various and different according to circumstances and conditions.

Next he quotes the Nirvana Sutra, a commentary on the Mahaprajnaparamita Sutra by Nagarjuna, and several other works, including Zhiyi Tiantai’s Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra, on the meaning of the word “sad” as in the Sanskrit title of the Lotus Sutra – Saddharma Pundarika Sutra. Sad is said to connote the number six which implies Perfection. Nichiren explains the significance, “in essence they mean that Shakyamuni’s practices and the virtues he consequently attained are all contained within the five characters of Myoho-Renge-Kyo. If we believe in these five characters, we will naturally be granted the same benefits as he was.” The point here is that the Lotus Sutra, according to its title, expounds the complete and perfect teaching of the Buddha.

If one thinks that the Lotus Sutra is just a book, that is not incorrect, but it also is not a complete understanding. The Lotus Sutra is a particular discourse in which the Buddha directly expresses his awakening without expedients. It is not communicated in terms that can be intellectually understood, but since the Buddha’s awakening is beyond words, so is its transmission. The book is one of the media by which we are exposed to awakening. The Lotus Sutra is a book, but itis not just this particular book we call the Lotus Sutra. In other places this sutra is expounded in millions upon millions of volumes. Even in India, Nichiren suggested that it had been recorded in several versions, some longer and some shorter than the work Kumarajiva translated. There are also several Chinese translations. Nichiren even surmised that it might be the same as the Vairocana Sutra – which is a very different discourse in literal terms. In other places, the Lotus may only be a few lines long – like the Heart Sutra (The Heart Sutra is one text in a genre of Sutras called Prajna Paramita. Some of these are very long, some not so long. They all are considered, however, to expound on the same wisdom. The difference is in their manner of expression.) The Lotus Sutra that Nichiren received and transmitted as Bodhisattva Visistacaritra was five characters – 妙法蓮華経 Myoho Renge Kyo.

In the Lotus Schools, the words of the Sutra themselves are understood to be Buddhas. There are copies of the Lotus Sutra in Japan in which each character is rendered within an image of a stupa, or next to pictures of Buddhas, or on Lotus thrones.
Image

Along these lines, Zhiyi taught a repentance ritual based on the Lotus Sutra, and instead of enshrining a Buddha statue, advised simply enshrining a copy of the sutra since the sutra itself is the body of the Buddha.
“In a suitably quiet and secluded place, one prepares and adorns a special room to be the place for the Bodhimandala. In a special place one is seated at a proper distance from the Bodhimandala. In the Bodhimandala, placed well like a high throne, one places a single copy of the Lotus Sutra. It is not necessary to place any other images, sarira [relics], or other Sutras with it. One only enshrines the Lotus Sutra. One may place banners, canopies, and various other offerings around it.”
The Lotus Sutra states,
“Medicine King, in any place whatsoever where this sutra is preached, where it is read, where it is recited, where it is copied, or where a roll of it exists, in all such places there should be erected stupas made of the seven kinds of gems, and they should be made very high and broad and well adorned. There is no need to enshrine the relics of the Buddha there. Why? Because in these stupas the entire body of the thus come one will already be present. All kinds of flowers, incense, necklaces, silken canopies, streamers and banners, music and hymns should be offered as alms to these stupas and they should be accorded reverence, honor, and praise. If when people see these stupas they bow in obeisance and offer alms, then you should know that these people have all drawn near to supreme perfect enlightenment.”
Ch. 10.

The point is, the Lotus Sutra is the Buddha. When you read its words, you are directly encountering the Buddha.

This passage from Nichiren’s work called The Doctrine of Three Thousand Realms is long, but relevant here:
[W]hen, through the Lotus Sutra, we meditate moment by moment on the meaning of threefold contemplation in a single mind and the principle of three thousand realms in a single moment of life, then we come to realize that we ourselves are Thus Come Ones of original enlightenment. Then the clouds of ignorance part and the moon of the essential nature of phenomena shines forth. We wake from dreams of delusion and the round moon of original enlightenment is seen in all its brilliance. We see that this fleshly form received in birth from our parents, this body bound by earthly desires, is none other than the Thus Come One who has existed always and is ever-abiding.

This is what is called the attainment of Buddhahood in one’s present form, the realization that earthly desires are none other than enlightenment and that the sufferings of birth and death are none other than nirvana.

At this time when we gaze at the phenomenal world, we see that all things conform to the single principle of the Middle Way, and that the Buddha and living beings are one. This is what T’ien-t’ai means when he writes in his commentary, “There is not one color or one fragrance that is not the Middle Way.”

At this time we see that all the worlds of the ten directions are the Pure Land of Tranquil Light. Where, then, can one find the pure lands of Amida Buddha or the Buddha Medicine Master? This is what the Lotus Sutra means when it says, “These phenomena are part of an abiding Dharma, [and] the characteristics of the world are constantly abiding.”

We may wonder whether, without reciting the sutra, it is possible simply through the meditation of the mind-ground alone to attain Buddhahood. The fact is that the meditation on three thousand realms in a single moment of life and the method of meditation known as threefold contemplation in a single mind are contained within the five characters Myoho-renge-kyo. And these five characters, Myoho-renge-kyo, are also contained within the single life of each of us. Thus T’ien-t’ai’s commentary states: “This Myoho-renge-kyo represents the depths of the secret storehouse of the original state, the enlightenment attained by the Thus Come Ones of the three existences.”

When we chant this Myoho-renge-kyo, the Buddha of original enlightenment present in our lives becomes manifest. Our bodies and minds are comparable to the storehouse of the teachings, and the word myō is comparable to the seal [that permits the opening of the storehouse]. Thus the commentary of T’ien-t’ai states: “To reveal the depths of the secret storehouse—this is called myō, or wonderful. To define the proper relationship between the provisional and the true—this is termed hō, or the Dharma. To point to the original enlightenment attained by the Buddha in the far distant past—this is compared to ren, or lotus. To clarify the perfect way of the non-duality of provisional and true—this is compared to ge, or blossom. The voice carries out the work of the Buddha, and this is called kyō, or sutra.”

And the commentary also states: “Myō is a term used to praise the Dharma that is beyond ordinary comprehension. Myō is also the Dharma of the Ten Worlds and the ten factors, the Dharma that is both provisional and true.”

Chanting the daimoku, or title, of the Lotus Sutra is the same as carrying out meditation. Ignorant persons may find this difficult to believe. But the second volume of Great Concentration and Insight by T’ien-t’ai has a passage “regarding recitation and silence” in which the word “recitation” refers to recitation of the Lotus Sutra and “silence” to the practice of meditation or contemplation. And again, in the first volume of his Meaning of the Four Teachings, T’ien-t’ai states: “Not only [are such practices as recitation] not a needless waste of effort, they are essential in enabling one to grasp the principle involved.”

The Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai was a reincarnation of the bodhisattva Medicine King, and in his commentaries he discussed the merits of reciting the sutra and those of meditation. To begin with, in his commentaries he defined four guidelines for interpreting the words and phrases of the Lotus Sutra, namely, causes and conditions, correlated teachings, theoretical and essential teachings, and observation of the mind. But persons who do not understand the importance of these four types of interpretation are likely to apply only one type of interpretation, turning all their attention to the way in which the passage relates to the theoretical and essential teachings, or turning all their attention to how it relates to observation of the mind.
In the Lotus Sutra, we find the doctrine directly stated, we find it taught through similes, and we find it taught through an explanation of causes and conditions in the past. In passages where the doctrine is directly stated, the original purpose for which the Buddhas appear in the world is set forth, the direct path by which all living beings can attain Buddhahood. And daimoku represents the cause and condition that permits not only us but all living beings to proceed directly to the place of enlightenment.

Therefore T’ien-t’ai in the first volume of his Profound Meaning states: “All the little practices of goodness are gathered together, and one finds one’s destination in the breadth and magnitude of the one vehicle.” By “breadth and magnitude” he means that all living beings without exception shall be guided to this goal.

Although this goal may be set forth as the original purpose for which one person, Shakyamuni, made his appearance in the world, yet all beings in the stage of near-perfect enlightenment and below should look up to it and should have faith in this sutra, the Lotus. For this sutra itself is the original purpose for which the Buddhas appear in the world…

Those who are knowledgeable may practice both sutra recitation and meditation. Those uninformed may simply chant the daimoku, for in doing so they will be abiding by the principle of the sutra.

This Myoho-renge-kyo is a term designating the essential nature of our minds, or, more generally speaking, the essential nature of the minds of all living beings, the eight-petaled white lotus blossom. The words of the Buddha himself teach us this. From time without beginning until the present, these bodies of ours have transmigrated through the realm of birth and death, in a state of delusion as to the essential nature of the mind that is within these bodies. But now that we have encountered the Lotus Sutra and chant the daimoku that represents the Thus Come Oneof original enlightenment, who possesses the three bodies in a single body, the Thus Come One becomes manifest. In our present existence we achieve the inner realization and attainment of Buddhahood that is known as the attainment of Buddhahood in our present form.

And when we die, our bodies will emit a glow. This is what is known as the outward-directed activity associated with the attainment of Buddhahood. This is what the Lotus Sutra means when it says, “Then in a future existence they will be able to become Buddhas.”

“When for the sake of brevity one mentions only the daimoku, or title, the entire sutra is by implication included therein.” This means that one recitation of the daimoku is equivalent to one recitation of the whole sutra.

When we chant Myoho-renge-kyo, the Thus Come One of the essential nature of our minds becomes manifest, and the sounds that reach the ears of others wipe out their offenses accumulated over countless asamkhya kalpas. When they respond with joy even for a moment, they attain Buddhahood in their present form. Even though they may not believe this, the seed has been planted, it is maturing, and through it they will invariably attain Buddhahood.

The Great Teacher Miao-lo states: “Whether one accepts or rejects the teachings, they have entered one’s ear and one has thus established a bond with them. And then, though one may comply with them or go against them, in the end one will because of this bond be able to achieve liberation.”
And I, Nichiren, declare that these words, “whether one accepts or rejects,” “though one may comply with them or go against them,” constitute a passage worthy to be engraved on the heart. This is what the Lotus Sutra means when it says, “If there are those who hear the Dharma, [then not a one will fail to attain Buddhahood].” Here it speaks of those “who hear the Dharma.” But if it were referring to those who attain Buddhahood through meditation, it would say, “If there are those who meditate on the Dharma.”
Nichiren continues to explain this mutual inclusion of the ten worlds, particularly the world of Buddhahood in us. He demonstrates this teaching, quoting the sutra. Particularly, he quotes the second chapter:
Shariputra, you should know
that at the start I took a vow,
hoping to make all persons
equal to me, without any distinction between us,
and what I long ago hoped for
has now been fulfilled.
I have converted all living beings
and caused them all to enter the buddha way.
Commenting on this, Nichiren wrote, “Shakyamuni Buddha, who has attained perfect enlightenment, is our own flesh and blood. His practices and the resulting virtues are our bones and marrow.”

Concluding the discussion, Nichiren quotes Zhanran, the Great Teacher Miao-lo:
“You should understand that one’s life and its environment at a single moment encompass the three thousand realms. Therefore, when one attains the Buddha way, one puts oneself in accord with this fundamental principle, and one’s body and mind at a single moment pervade the entire realm of phenomena.”
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

narhwal90
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by narhwal90 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:38 pm

Nichiren's mutual possession of the 10 worlds argument, along with his basis for explaining it has always made a lot more sense to me than the 3000 realms proposition, if for no other reason than simply multiplying the lengths of some lists together and stating it as a principle doesn't tell me much. If I recall the lists, its the 10 worlds, 10 factors, mutual possession of the 10 worlds (making 100), 3 realms, the product being 3000. I assume the idea is that each element of each list partakes equally of the others which makes sense, but doesn't the Nichiren make the equality and uniformity argument already in his treatment of the 10 worlds, not to mention the 10 factors from the end of Hoben; particularly the consistency of all phenomena?

Which isn't to say I think its somehow wrong or inappropriate, only that it seems to me the proposition has already been well made and (to me) the ichinen sanzen principle seems superfluous or at least brings complexity without (to me) a payoff. Nichiren stresses the point, how it was not known, known but not taught, till he finally taught it. IIRC Dolce makes an argument that Nichiren needed to distinguish his teaching from others, so I am prone to wondering if he pressed the ichinen sanzen argument in an effort to do so. I wouldn't go as far as she to call such efforts "legitimizing" but (please correct me if I'm wrong) it is an argument that distinguishes him from contemporary voices.

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:28 pm

narhwal90 wrote:Nichiren's mutual possession of the 10 worlds argument, along with his basis for explaining it has always made a lot more sense to me than the 3000 realms proposition, if for no other reason than simply multiplying the lengths of some lists together and stating it as a principle doesn't tell me much. If I recall the lists, its the 10 worlds, 10 factors, mutual possession of the 10 worlds (making 100), 3 realms, the product being 3000. I assume the idea is that each element of each list partakes equally of the others which makes sense, but doesn't the Nichiren make the equality and uniformity argument already in his treatment of the 10 worlds, not to mention the 10 factors from the end of Hoben; particularly the consistency of all phenomena?

Which isn't to say I think its somehow wrong or inappropriate, only that it seems to me the proposition has already been well made and (to me) the ichinen sanzen principle seems superfluous or at least brings complexity without (to me) a payoff. Nichiren stresses the point, how it was not known, known but not taught, till he finally taught it. IIRC Dolce makes an argument that Nichiren needed to distinguish his teaching from others, so I am prone to wondering if he pressed the ichinen sanzen argument in an effort to do so. I wouldn't go as far as she to call such efforts "legitimizing" but (please correct me if I'm wrong) it is an argument that distinguishes him from contemporary voices.
I'm not quite sure how to respond to this.

Ichinen Sanzen is a Tiantai's teaching. Same with the mutual possesion of the ten worlds, the thousand factors, the threefold inclusive truth. The rest here is too much speculation based on misunderstandings.

You might find it useful to deepen understanding of ichinen sanzen, as well as mutual possession, 1000 factors. Its actually very advanced theory.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

narhwal90
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by narhwal90 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:40 pm

Lol well thats probably why it slips past me. I read thru these topics from time to time, the "worlds" arguments and mutual posession etc work for me, but ichinen sanzen keeps not. Perhaps i am looking for something different from what it is intended to convey.

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:35 am

Yeah guys I blew it up there on my previous comment. I got carried away with my own argument out of ignorance. Perhaps there is some kind of critique to be made along those lines but I think I need to study the ichinen sanzen proposition before I could say anything useful- and I think my posting above is not. So as an amends I'll be going thru this topic in a lot more detail, hopefully so as to make a useful contribution later on.

Thanks and I offer my apologies to all...

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Queequeg » Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:10 am

Hey, man, I'm sorry if I came across too abrupt.
This is a heavy gosho. It's one of those writings Nichiren was putting g down his legacy. It's not surprising that we don't understand what he's teaching.
I've been doing a weekly study with some newbies and trying to find a succinct explanation of the ten worlds that has a little more substance without going all out. I can't find anything so far.
I remember being told that this stuff was too complicated, but it didn't seem anyone actually knew enough to authoritative say this. It was just conventional wisdom.
Seems like a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
Please don't apologize. I'm sorry for my manner.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:35 pm

narhwal90 wrote:Lol well thats probably why it slips past me. I read thru these topics from time to time, the "worlds" arguments and mutual posession etc work for me, but ichinen sanzen keeps not. Perhaps i am looking for something different from what it is intended to convey.
i've read the big post once and need to study it now.

I'm going to put aside my physics understanding i have come to... for it will only confuse everyone...and only makes sense to me anyway
:rolling: :sage: :rolling:

Ichinen sanzen is thus, layman street guy interpretation...

you got ten worlds. we know they are looked at as natures in us ...lets use the word inherent for convention sake. in a sense the word, used in a emptiness / Buddhist way, is perfect for ichinen sanzen is never just one nature for they all interact on each all the time. Every moment we could say we are in one major event style nature...lets say anger...but it could be over greed and an animalistic way of acquiring it and yet we worry about a certain person involved and don't want to hurt them hence Bodhisattva nature is kicking in and then again we are learning something about ourselves for we are reflecting on the whole thing going down and know it is wrong and yet we do it causing us to suffer but acquire big money....

so..they all interact on each other ..

I think , from what I just read, that Buddha Nature is involved in all of them due to the fact everything is endowed with Buddha Nature.

so the High Command in It's Wisdom was able to use Arithmetic at the time, a very advanced thing for it's time, to put together a three thousand realm human experience.

slips into some sort of bad metaphors

Kind of the psychology of it's day, with implications of enlightened thought .actually way more than just psychology .

so it's like a windows thing with all these programs running at the same time.

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