Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

narhwal90
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:54 pm

lol, I was listening to a podcast by a Rinpoche, he viewed Windows as the very definition of samsara- 1st time I heard that I nearly spilled coffee all over. I would suggest tongue-in-cheek that each new release of Windows perpetuates the cycle. I went all Linux back in the late 90's because writing software for Windows was getting depressing- the glimpses I get into that business suggest that its only gotten worse... but sorry, back to the topic at hand...

I've always liked how Nichiren argued for the mutual possession and buddha nature for all (and all things), likewise the 10 factors; I can see (some of) those examples operate in my experience. I have always responded to specific practices rather than a philosophical argument which is perhaps some of the basis for me having difficulty with ichinen sanzen- but I need to get back to studying before I try to take up the subject again.

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Minobu
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:52 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
I've always liked how Nichiren argued for the mutual possession and buddha nature for all (and all things),.
It's not so much a social issue, in fact it's not a social issue at all, it's revealing the nature of reality. Our reality which we live in.

It would be helpful if you showed us what you think it is.

I adore the fact Nichiren focused so much attention on the peasantry . He showed His value of human life , and though was able to converse with the nobility never lost touch with everyone. Not so unlike Siddhartha leaving the palace.

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:17 am

read it again and want to thank queequeg.

I think as time goes on and takeing this practice more sincerely one is able to see things a little bit deeper.
I think the depth is well below the depth i can swim in but each league brings it's own joy.

this time out though this part.
The point is, the Lotus Sutra is the Buddha. When you read its words, you are directly encountering the Buddha.
This makes sense finnally. of course you have to read the whole post to get it , but this finnaly hit home.


This part got me to googling.
the meaning of threefold contemplation
i reads the SGI thing but it sort of seems to avoid the depth behind sunyata,

this link does me fine.


https://books.google.ca/books?id=ZBzlqh ... on&f=false

ta very much
d

narhwal90
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by narhwal90 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:02 am

Hi all,

I spent some time studying and reflecting on ichinen sanzen and figured
I would try and bring what I found to the group. As per my last few
posts on this thread the less said the better but suffice to say some
basic fact finding before shooting off my mouth would have avoided it- I
chalk it up to the usual causes.

To my mind buddhism is method, ie practice, thus ichinen sanzen may
be interpreted accordingly and so should provide interpretive &
predictive value on a day-to-basis- so I tried to work at the topic from
that angle.

To start with I reconsidered the 3000 realms as a 4 dimensional state
space (one dimension for each term) that we all traverse from moment to
moment, not so much in quantized transitions more in the sense of
gradients. The path through the space is influenced by a variety of
factors, significant among them is choice either conscious or
unconscious. Nichiren is explicit that not just the animate but all
phenomena operate in that space. Its a single state space, there isn't
an ichinen sanzen for snails and a different one for people, all share
one.

That led me into consideration of my current favorite gosho the 14 Slanders
relating the story of Buddha Never Disparaging. In effect my path
through ichinen sanzen involves the respective paths of all that I
interact with. I may consider my actions towards others (and all
phenomena) in relation to their buddha nature as well as mine.

The proposition of daimoku manifesting the principle of ichinen sanzen
is interesting. My take on it is ichinen sanzen predicts the effect of
daimoku. By making the choice to recite, I gain awareness through the
meditative effects of the practice. By gaining awareness I can make
choices to move away from the lower worlds. The 10 factors provide the
consequences of my choices regardless. I don't have an opinion wrt
esoteric aspects of the practice, for my part its sufficient for actions
to have results.

If all phenomena operate via ichinen sanzen, I feel I must accept all
equally- to make distinctions and judgements is to divide & distinguish
the buddha nature. Obviously distinctions and judgements are required
to operate in the universe, to which I offer Nichiren's advice in Letter
to Horen, "You should let your choices be fitting and never adhere
solely to one or the other". I take that to mean I should make
distinctions and judgments where they are needed and not elsewhere.
When awareness dawns and I realize I have blown it, then I can choose
better next time.

Previously on this topic I recall others making statements like "its all
alive"- which I find on-point in this context. It also reveals the
fundamental buddha nature all share, it is not something to be sought-
its already mine, the problem is one of ignorance and obscuration not of
lacking anything.

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:32 pm

narhwal90 wrote: To my mind buddhism is method, ie practice,
I more or less agree with that. There isn't really a "Buddhism" in the sense of a static, monolithic Truth.I don't know about the Pali traditions, but in Mahayana, we talk about the "yanas", or the "vehicles", which are comprehensive systems that entail practice as well as views. These are aimed at liberating beings and leading them to Buddhahood. In East Asia, they refer to the "Buddha's teaching" and the "Buddha path". In this sense, understanding Buddhism as a method, as a practice, as a mode of activity correctly emphasizes its dynamic, lived nature. There is this famous passage from True Aspect of All Phenomena:
Believe in the Gohonzon, the supreme object of devotion in all of Jambudvīpa. Be sure to strengthen your faith, and receive the protection of Shakyamuni, Many Treasures, and the Buddhas of the ten directions. Exert yourself in the two ways of practice and study. Without practice and study, there can be no Buddhism. You must not only persevere yourself; you must also teach others. Both practice and study arise from faith. Teach others to the best of your ability, even if it is only a single sentence or phrase. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
What we are talking about is indeed a way to "be" in this dynamic reality.

I think its fair to read - anywhere we talk about practice, we are implicitly also talking about study, which is itself a type of practice, and vice versa.
If all phenomena operate via ichinen sanzen, I feel I must accept all
equally- to make distinctions and judgements is to divide & distinguish
the buddha nature. Obviously distinctions and judgements are required
to operate in the universe, to which I offer Nichiren's advice in Letter
to Horen, "You should let your choices be fitting and never adhere
solely to one or the other". I take that to mean I should make
distinctions and judgments where they are needed and not elsewhere.
When awareness dawns and I realize I have blown it, then I can choose
better next time.
The problem is not in the distinctions themselves, but in supposing that the distinctions are anything more than artistic expedients - mistaking a rabbit shaped cloud for an actual rabbit, so to speak.

On this point, maybe it would be helpful to understand that Ichinen Sanzen as a method of contemplation is essentially the same as the contemplation on the Three Fold Truth - 1) The Ultimate, which is beyond distinctions, 2) The Provisional, which is the full spectrum of distinctions, and 3) The Middle, which is the complete identity of the Ultimate and Provisional. This contemplation more or less implies your conclusion here.

the problem is one of ignorance and obscuration not of
lacking anything.
This is a good place to segue into the next part of the the Kanjin no Honzon Sho.

Up to now, Nichiren has been addressing the question of "right view", which for him is Ichinen Sanzen. The question then comes - what is the practice that complements the view - that neutralizes the ignorance and obscurations?
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Queequeg » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:49 pm

As touched on above, Study and Practice are said to be the foundation of Buddhism. We study to gain understanding of the theory, which we put into practice in various ways - contemplation, compassionate actions, propagation, etc. These practices in turn help us to deepen understanding and enhance our study.

In Nichiren's teaching, the Gohonzon is the focus of our practice. The Gohonzon is the subject of the text we are currently reading.

To recap:
Nichiren opened this writing with a quote from the Great Concentration and Insight (Ch. Mohozhikuan Jp. Makashikan; we could render this in Sanskrit as the Maha Samatha Vipassana) a text that is considered the ultimate teaching of the 6th century Chinese monk, Zhiyi (Tendai Daishi – The Great Sage of Mt. Tientai).
[Thus] a single thought includes the ten dharma realms. A single dharma realm includes the [other] ten dharma realms, so there are one hundred dharma realms. One realm includes thirty types of worlds [that is, each of the ten dharma realms are included in each of the three types of worlds: the world of sentient beings, the world of the five skandhas, and various lands], multiplied by one hundred dharma realms. This results in the inclusion of three thousand types of worlds. These three thousand [worlds] exist in a single momentary thought.

If there is no thought, that is the end of the matter. If there is even an ephemeral thought, this includes three thousand [realms]. But we cannot say that the single thought has prior existence, and that all phenomena (sarva-dharma) exist later, nor can we say that all phenomena have prior existence, and that the single thought exists later. For example, it is like a thing that changes through eight aspects [of arising, abiding, changing, and perishing]; it is not that things exist prior to these aspects and are caused to change through them, nor do the aspects exist prior to things and are caused to change through them [but things and their passing through arising, abiding, and so forth occur together]. There can be no priority nor posteriority [since it occurs simultaneously]. It is just that things are said to change by passing through these aspects, and these aspects are said to occur to things.

Thoughts are also like this. If all phenomena arise from a single thought, this is a horizontal [relationship]; if a thought in one moment encompasses all phenomena, this is a vertical [relationship]. But these are neither [merely] vertical nor [merely] horizontal. It is just that thought is all phenomena, and all phenomena is thought. Therefore [the relationship of thought and phenomena, the mind and objects] is neither [merely] vertical nor horizontal; they are neither the same nor different. This is mysterious and sublime, profound in the extreme, cannot be grasped conceptually, and cannot be verbalized.
This is what is called [contemplating] “objects as inconceivable.”
(Nichiren did not quote this passage in full; the italicized section is omitted in Nichiren’s text)

In opening the text with this quote, Nichiren is framing everything that follows within the Tientai framework.

Based on Zhiyi’s teaching of Ichinen Sanzen, Nichiren explains that the realm of Buddha is part of us, intrinsically. In other words, we already possess Buddhanature; we are Buddhas (unrealized) as we are. Buddhahood is not some external quality to be acquired. It is already an aspect of ourselves, and attaining Buddhahood is a matter of bringing this aspect of ourselves forth.

The universal gate of Buddhahood is the revelation of our Buddhanature – The Buddha revealing to us that we intrinsically have this capacity for Buddhahood. The Lotus Sutra is the sermon by which all beings on the path of Buddhahood first hear of this capacity. It is always delivered by the Buddha in his primordial aspect, to us in our primordial aspect.

This universal gate is the central point of Nichiren’s teachings. When he criticizes other teachings, it is primarily to the extent that they neglect or demean the profound importance of this first revelation.

Why is this first introduction to our Buddhanature so critical?

Without knowing about our Buddhanature, Buddhahood is impossible; we don’t even know that it is a possibility – that escape from samsara is even a possibility. Until the Buddha tells us there is an escape – (in a sense, the Lotus Sutra is the complete explanation of the Third Noble Truth) – all we know is the inevitability of suffering. Without knowing the capacity for Buddhahood, religious practice is, as Nichiren remarks, just a painful austerity. When our Buddhanature is pointed out to us, it immediately establishes our original, primordial context, the real nature, the real context of all our thoughts, words and deeds, past, present, and future, all is fully and completely revealed as the Buddhapath.

In the next section, Nichiren addresses the place of the Lotus Sutra in the context of the Buddha Shakyamuni’s lifetime teachings.
First, at his place of enlightenment, Shakyamuni Buddha [preached the Flower Garland Sutra (Avatamsaka) in which he] revealed the Lotus Treasury World. In the following fifty years, until he entered nirvana in the grove of sal trees, Shakyamuni preached about the lands of the various Buddhas, such as the Lotus Treasury World and the Land of Secret Solemnity [in the Secret Solemnity Sutra], revealed the three kinds of lands when he three times purified countless lands [in the theoretical teaching of the Lotus Sutra], and revealed the four kinds of lands according to the four different views [in the Nirvana Sutra]. These lands—the Land of Transition, the Land of Actual Reward, and the Land of Tranquil Light; the Land of Peace and Sustenance, the Pure Emerald World, the Land of Secret Solemnity, and the lands of all the other Buddhas—are transient lands that change in the course of the kalpas of formation, [continuance, decline, and disintegration]. The Buddhas of these lands had been magically conjured by Shakyamuni Buddha, and when the lord of teachings entered nirvana, all these Buddhas likewise entered extinction. In the same way, their lands also vanished.
In the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha reveals that his teachings are expedients.

In the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra on the Buddha’s Life Span, we find this passage:
The sutras that the Tathāgata has expounded are all to save the sentient beings. Whether the Tathāgata teaches about himself or others, whether he reveals his form or that of others, whether he shows his acts or those of others, everything he says is true, never false.

“Why is this? Because the Tathāgata perceives all the marks of the triple world as they really are: that there is no birth and death, coming or going; that there is also no existence or extinction in the world, truth or falsehood, sameness or difference. The Tathāgata does not view the triple world as sentient beings in the triple world see it. The Tathāgata perceives such things clearly and without mistakes.

“Since sentient beings have various natures, desires, behaviors, thoughts, and distinctions, the Tathāgata, wanting to cause them to plant roots of good merit, has explained various teachings through a variety of examples, explanations, and illustrations. He has not desisted from doing buddha acts even for a single moment and in this way it has been an extremely long time since I attained buddhahood. My lifespan is immeasurable and incalculable. I abide forever without entering parinirvāṇa.
All Buddhist teachings are the teachings of the Primordial Buddha. When the Buddha appears as a five foot tall Shakyamuni who was born at Lumbini, awakened at Gaya, turned the wheel at Sarnath, and passed into parinirvana at Kusinagara, it is the Primordial Buddha’s expedient. Sometimes he appears as Vairocana, or tells us of other Buddhas in distant times and lands, like Dipamkara, or Aksobhya, Bhaisajyaguru, Amitabha, these Buddhas are his emanations and their lands are his magical conjurations. As the Buddha explains, the actual reality, all of it is this Saha World.

Nichiren explains:
The sahā world Shakyamuni Buddha revealed in the “Life Span” chapter is the eternal pure land, impervious to the three calamities and to the cycle of the four kalpas. The Buddha neither has entered into extinction in the past nor will be born in the future. And the same is true of his disciples. This means that their lives are perfectly endowed with the three thousand worlds, that is, with the three realms of existence.
All of this is your Mind. The endeavor to attain Buddhahood is on, now. Every thought, word and deed bears significance to the ultimate context of your Buddhahood, and all of it plays out in this Primordial Saha World. This, the Buddha demonstrates to us, is the real. In showing us Buddhanature, the Buddha is actually showing us our real nature. We may not understand this at first, but having been shown, we cannot unsee and our endeavors from now on are all development of understanding, whether we are cognizant of this or not. All of us, eventually, will get "it" in increasingly profound ways, through myriad methods and teachings, and eventually we will reach stages of non-regression, and ultimately, Buddhahood.

Although the Buddha transmitted this teaching to the entire assembly, he specifically entrusted its lineage only to his primordial disciples who emerged from beneath the earth. My reading of this is that this merely emphasizes the immediacy of this teaching for each practitioner; this is not something that Avalokitesvara undertakes - it is our endeavor.
Shakyamuni Buddha did not transmit the five characters of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, the heart of the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra, even to the bodhisattvas Manjushrī and Medicine King, let alone to any lesser disciples. He summoned from beneath the earth the great bodhisattvas as numerous as the dust particles of a thousand worlds and, as he preached the eight chapters, transferred it solely to them.
From the 15th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra. After having heard the Buddha teach the Pacifying Practices of the Lotus Sutra, the Assembly expressed their eagerness to receive the Lotus Sutra.
At that time the bodhisattva mahāsattvas, who had arrived from other lands and whose number exceeded that of the sands of eight Ganges Rivers, stood up in the great assembly, bowed with their palms pressed together, and then spoke to the Buddha, saying: “O Bhagavat! If you give us permission to diligently strive to preserve, recite, copy and pay homage to this [Lotus] Sutra after the parinirvāṇa of the Buddha in this sahā world, then we will extensively
teach it in this land.”

Then the Buddha addressed the assembly of bodhisattva mahā sattvas, saying: “Enough, O sons of a virtuous family! There is no need for you to preserve this sutra. Why is this? In my sahā world there are bodhisattva mahāsattvas, equal to the sands of sixty thousand Ganges Rivers in number; and each of these bodhisattvas, in turn, has a retinue equal to the sands of sixty thousand Ganges Rivers. After my parinirvāṇa they can preserve, recite,and extensively teach this sutra.”

When the Buddha said this all the lands of the great manifold cosmos in the sahā world quaked and the earth split. From out of this crevice there simultaneously appeared incalculable thousands of myriads of koṭis of bodhisattva mahāsattvas. All of these bodhisattvas had golden bodies endowed with the thirty-two marks and radiating immeasurable rays of light. They had all previously been living in the space under the earth of the sahā world. Having heard the sound of Śākyamuni’s teaching, all of these bodhisattvas emerged from below.
Who are these bodhisattvas who emerge from the Earth? Nichiren is Visistacaritra and we are his followers from beneath the Earth; we are the Primordial Buddha's Primordial Disciples.

Nichiren next describes the Gohonzon – the teacher that is the focus of contemplation for observing the mind. This is the mandala we enshrine and perform our daily practices before.
The Gohonzon is described as follows:

The treasure tower sits in the air above the sahā world that the Buddha of the essential teaching [identified as the pure and eternal land]; Myoho-renge-kyo appears in the center of the tower with the Buddhas Shakyamuni and Many Treasures (Prabhutaratna Tathagata) seated to the right and left, and, flanking them, the four bodhisattvas, followers of Shakyamuni, led by Superior Practices (Visistacaritra). Manjushrī, Maitreya, and the other bodhisattvas, who are all followers of the four bodhisattvas, are seated below. All the other major and minor bodhisattvas, whether they are disciples of the Buddha in his transient status or of the Buddhas of the other worlds, are like commoners kneeling on the ground in the presence of nobles and high-ranking court officials. The Buddhas who gathered from the other worlds in the ten directions all remain on the ground, showing that they are only temporary manifestations of the eternal Buddha and that their lands are transient, not eternal and unchanging.
Generally, the mandala is composed of names arranged around the Daimoku. The rationale I’ve heard for this is that primarily, it makes inscription of the mandala easy and inexpensive. Other rationales I’ve heard are that this discourages athropomorphosizing the Buddha – the Primordial Buddha is beyond form; equally, our primordial self is beyond form. While this might make some sense, I’ve never read anything attributed to Nichiren on this point. In fact, Nichiren condoned Shijo Kingo’s crafting of statues as his Gohonzon. So, this is a point that remains to be settled.

The following is a pictographic version by one of the great Japanese painters, Hasegawa Tohaku who was himself a Nichiren Buddhist.

Image

Nichiren goes on to discuss the significance of this particular representation of the Buddha:
During the entire fifty years of Shakyamuni’s teaching, only in the last eight years did he preach the twenty-eight chapters of the Lotus Sutra. Again, of all these chapters, only in the eight chapters did he reveal and transfer the object of devotion to the Bodhisattvas of the Earth. During the two millennia of the Former and Middle Days of the Law, statues were made showing Mahākāshyapa and Ānanda flanking the Shakyamuni Buddha of Hinayana, and Manjushrī and Universal Worthy (Samantabhadra) flanking the Shakyamuni Buddha of the provisional Mahayana, the Nirvana Sutra, and the theoretical teaching of the Lotus Sutra.

Even though statues and paintings were made of these Shakyamuni Buddhas during the two millennia, no image or statue was made of the Buddha of the “Life Span” chapter. Only in the Latter Day of the Law will the representation of that Buddha appear.
Honzon are more than just images. The iconography is actually read, like a text, by those who understand the symbolic language. In arranging the Buddhas, bodhisattvas, and others in a particular configuration, particular teachings are conveyed. In the case of Nichiren’s Gohonzon, it is the primordial moment of transmission of the Lotus Sutra from Buddha to us.

Even more, mandala are not just the material object, but they are the reality depicted - that moment of Buddha's Mind (in the ichinen sanzen sense) that we are intrinsically part of.

In On Receiving the Three Great Secret Laws, Nichiren wrote:
The place where the ceremony occurred was the eternally existing Land of Tranquil Light. The lord of teachings who abided in this land was the Buddha eternally endowed with the three bodies, and those whom he converted had to be of equal status. This being the case, from the depths of the Land of Tranquil Light he summoned up Superior Practices and the others who make up the four bodhisattvas, original followers of the Buddha who since the remote past had praised [the Buddha and the original Law], and entrusted this doctrine to them.
When we are seated before the Gohonzon and invoke the Daimoku, we are in attendance at that primordial transmission of the Universal Gate of Buddhahood. Our contemplation is this revelation of Buddhanature and its acceptance.

NMRK is literally the expression of this acceptance.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Minobu
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:06 pm

this is an awesome piece of work narhwal90 .

I just want to say this to show you the whole post is being read by me a few times.
time well spent , i thank you.

narhwal90 wrote:Hi all,

I spent some time studying and reflecting on ichinen sanzen and figured
I would try and bring what I found to the group. As per my last few
posts on this thread the less said the better but suffice to say some
basic fact finding before shooting off my mouth would have avoided it- I
chalk it up to the usual causes.

To my mind buddhism is method, ie practice, thus ichinen sanzen may
be interpreted accordingly and so should provide interpretive &
predictive value on a day-to-basis- so I tried to work at the topic from
that angle.
I simply practice to enhance, improve , and evolve myself. What keeps me going at times is to watch "IT" work.

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:29 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
The proposition of daimoku manifesting the principle of ichinen sanzen
is interesting.
I'm not clear as to what you mean by that.

unless it is from the idea that all phenomenon are Myo Ho Ren Ge.
but I don't think our chanting manifests it.

i don't think our chanting manifests ichinen sanzen, just purifies us, elevates our life condition through the higher worlds being forced by
the Odaimoku to come to for front or be enhanced , or for articulation sake add another ,concentrated manifestation through force of the Odaimoku.

Karma is the driving force we set out to conquer with our practice of chanting. Adding the Gohonozon in the mix is another whole ball of wax.
Karma is what I believe is the factor in what worlds we live through and the combo that evolves.

I'll have a Bohdicitta , learning combo please. Make that family size please.
:rolleye: :jumping:

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:20 pm

Hi Minobu,

Kind of you to say so.. :)

I like ichinen sanzen as a principle that predicts the consequences of daimoku, as it does any other action. Not in the sense that I can somehow deduce specifics, but that daimoku has consequences via the same mechanism all other consequences arise. I've heard the daimoku as a purifying or activating influence proposition since early NSA and have never been comfortable with it but this is in no way a critique of the ideas- I am only trying to convey my inner dialog. As above, I prefer to have no opinion on those concepts. I went for the 4-dimensional state space thing not to modify ichinen sanzen, but to restate it as a functional principle I can comfortably relate to, at least temporarily. Accordingly, I see daimoku as a form of meditation that awakens me out of the lower worlds so I can choose to move towards the higher. I work at doing the practice and others, paramitas etc to keep the process happening, It has been very interesting to consciously pursue these methods in daily life.

A few years back I didn't think ichinen sanzen was of much use beyond Nichiren buddhism trivial pursuit. I am thinking differently now, perhaps in the future a lot more still.

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:24 pm

Queequeg wrote:
[Thus]

Thoughts are also like this. If all phenomena arise from a single thought, this is a horizontal [relationship]; if a thought in one moment encompasses all phenomena, this is a vertical [relationship]. But these are neither [merely] vertical nor [merely] horizontal. It is just that thought is all phenomena, and all phenomena is thought. Therefore [the relationship of thought and phenomena, the mind and objects] is neither [merely] vertical nor horizontal; they are neither the same nor different. This is mysterious and sublime, profound in the extreme, cannot be grasped conceptually, and cannot be verbalized.[/i] This is what is called [contemplating] “objects as inconceivable.”
.
before i move on , i'm not knocking anything so don't get yer trousers in an awkward twist....
this vertical horizontal usage...i don't get...
is this a translation thing thing...if so can you give other words that might be used...
in any case this is really hard stuff.

also i've come to the conclusion this stuff is written and realized by Enlightened Ones.
i'm ..like wow....who can just think up this stuff...they leave it for us ..but it's like giving binoculars to a totally blind person and telling him to tell us what he sees.

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:33 pm

narhwal90 wrote:Hi Minobu,

Kind of you to say so.. :)

I like ichinen sanzen as a principle that predicts the consequences of daimoku, as it does any other action. Not in the sense that I can somehow deduce specifics, but that daimoku has consequences via the same mechanism all other consequences arise. I've heard the daimoku as a purifying or activating influence proposition since early NSA and have never been comfortable with it but this is in no way a critique of the ideas- I am only trying to convey my inner dialog. As above, I prefer to have no opinion on those concepts. I went for the 4-dimensional state space thing not to modify ichinen sanzen, but to restate it as a functional principle I can comfortably relate to, at least temporarily. Accordingly, I see daimoku as a form of meditation that awakens me out of the lower worlds so I can choose to move towards the higher. I work at doing the practice and others, paramitas etc to keep the process happening, It has been very interesting to consciously pursue these methods in daily life.

A few years back I didn't think ichinen sanzen was of much use beyond Nichiren buddhism trivial pursuit. I am thinking differently now, perhaps in the future a lot more still.
i share you paradigm in these :
Ichinen sanzen as a principle that predicts the consequences of daimoku, as it does any other action
predicts is interesting use ..i would use. affected by our Daimoku and pushes one into other worlds.
which is what you said here ...i think
but that daimoku has consequences via the same mechanism all other consequences arise.
I've heard the daimoku as a purifying or activating influence proposition since early NSA and have never been comfortable with it but this is in no way a critique of the ideas-
yeah but recently i read somewhere, maybe on this forum or in a gosho or something...where Nichiren Shonin staters that if a person hears Nam Myoho Renge Kyo >> KALPAS of Karma are washed away..hence when i am out and about i now feel comfortable...Brace yourselves to chant for people to hear...one of my justifications is kids go around singing hip hop stuff and other stuff all the time.
Accordingly, I see daimoku as a form of meditation that awakens me out of the lower worlds so I can choose to move towards the higher.
If that isn't spot on ...we are in trouble. ;)

cheers
d

I am only trying to convey my inner dialog.
me too ..some of mine is drivel...lol..

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:05 pm

Minobu wrote:
Queequeg wrote:
[Thus]

Thoughts are also like this. If all phenomena arise from a single thought, this is a horizontal [relationship]; if a thought in one moment encompasses all phenomena, this is a vertical [relationship]. But these are neither [merely] vertical nor [merely] horizontal. It is just that thought is all phenomena, and all phenomena is thought. Therefore [the relationship of thought and phenomena, the mind and objects] is neither [merely] vertical nor horizontal; they are neither the same nor different. This is mysterious and sublime, profound in the extreme, cannot be grasped conceptually, and cannot be verbalized.[/i] This is what is called [contemplating] “objects as inconceivable.”
.
before i move on , i'm not knocking anything so don't get yer trousers in an awkward twist....
this vertical horizontal usage...i don't get...
is this a translation thing thing...if so can you give other words that might be used...
in any case this is really hard stuff.

also i've come to the conclusion this stuff is written and realized by Enlightened Ones.
i'm ..like wow....who can just think up this stuff...they leave it for us ..but it's like giving binoculars to a totally blind person and telling him to tell us what he sees.

I take propositions like this as handling the 4 Extremes, or an analogous method to convey a "two but not two" sort of idea. I wonder it is used as a koan sort of mechanism- to get the reader out of discursive thought.

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Queequeg » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:50 am

phenomena arise from a single thought, this is a horizontal [relationship]
Phenomena arising from a single thought is another way to talk about the mind as cause of dharmas, ie. dharmas arise from the cause of mind.
if a thought in one moment encompasses all phenomena, this is a vertical [relationship]
This is another way to talk about dharmas as cause of the mind, ie. mind is just a reflection of dharmas.
But these are neither [merely] vertical nor [merely] horizontal. It is just that thought is all phenomena, and all phenomena is thought.
Mind is not the cause of dharmas, nor are dharmas the cause of mind. They arise mutually, and therefore, in a sense we can describe one or the other as a cause, but in doing so, we distort the reality. Ultimately, it is not possible to refer to one without referring to the other, and really understanding mind and dharmas is beyond any literal description, beyond understanding - it is sublime, it is inconceivable. As Narwhal mentions, this is "two but not two" logic.

It is not a koan, though. It is a technical discussion. There is a very straight forward argument being made.
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:53 am

ok got it .
ta

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:50 pm

Queequeg wrote:
In Nichiren's teaching, the Gohonzon is the focus of our practice. T

.
But is it though?
At the Time of Nichiren shonin and for a long time after, hundreds of years, only temples housed The Gohonozon.
It was really Toda who mass produced Them and labeled them a happiness machine or something. A wish granting box or something.

Tien Tai The Great , from what I gather knew about the Ceremony In The Air, and I think He meditated on that whilst silently meditating on Title of The Lotus Sutra?

The focus is on Nam Myho Renge Kyo .
Actually chanting with /to A Gohonzon is a very special thing. And the nuance of to/with i wish to talk about as well.
It needs to be done proper and for that I thank you Queequeg in allowing me to grow with your work.
the whole the Gohonzon is inside you I need to discuss as well.

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:02 pm

Queequeg wrote: The Lotus Sutra is the sermon by which all beings on the path of Buddhahood first hear of this capacity. It is always delivered by the Buddha in his primordial aspect, to us in our primordial aspect.
so i wonder if all other Buddhist sects and schools, Mahayana anyway, that teach that we are all Buddhas , get it from the Lotus Sutra.
I ask this for it is quite a marvel if you think about it.
You asked Malcolm somewhere something along the lines of why not go directly to the source instead of the long way around. i forget you words but it was about why do the other instead of the actual source ...i hate it when i can't remember exactly...but hopefully people see what i am getting at.


Now why do you say always delivered by the Buddha in His Primordial aspect...is this referring to the fact this is the Main Teaching and most important...So when ever it is given He does it this way ..and does He do it over and over all over time and space at different times...

also what is our Primordial aspect?

ok sorry full of questions this morning.

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:05 pm

Minobu wrote:
Queequeg wrote: The Lotus Sutra is the sermon by which all beings on the path of Buddhahood first hear of this capacity. It is always delivered by the Buddha in his primordial aspect, to us in our primordial aspect.
so i wonder if all other Buddhist sects and schools, Mahayana anyway, that teach that we are all Buddhas , get it from the Lotus Sutra.
I ask this for it is quite a marvel if you think about it.
You asked Malcolm somewhere something along the lines of why not go directly to the source instead of the long way around. i forget you words but it was about why do the other instead of the actual source ...i hate it when i can't remember exactly...but hopefully people see what i am getting at.


Now why do you say always delivered by the Buddha in His Primordial aspect...is this referring to the fact this is the Main Teaching and most important...So when ever it is given He does it this way ..and does He do it over and over all over time and space at different times...

also what is our Primordial aspect?

ok sorry full of questions this morning.
ok i'll leave it in, but as I read further you do explain our primordial aspect...

maybe i should studdy the whole p[iece ...lol..

it's quite good.

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Queequeg » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Minobu wrote:
Queequeg wrote:
In Nichiren's teaching, the Gohonzon is the focus of our practice. T

.
But is it though?
At the Time of Nichiren shonin and for a long time after, hundreds of years, only temples housed The Gohonozon.
It was really Toda who mass produced Them and labeled them a happiness machine or something. A wish granting box or something.

Tien Tai The Great , from what I gather knew about the Ceremony In The Air, and I think He meditated on that whilst silently meditating on Title of The Lotus Sutra?

The focus is on Nam Myho Renge Kyo .
Actually chanting with /to A Gohonzon is a very special thing. And the nuance of to/with i wish to talk about as well.
It needs to be done proper and for that I thank you Queequeg in allowing me to grow with your work.
the whole the Gohonzon is inside you I need to discuss as well.
So, we need to understand what the Gohonzon is.

It is a mandala.

What is a mandala?

It is, more or less, a picture of Mind.

In the case of Nichiren's Mandala - it is the Mind of the Primordial Buddha as described in the Lotus Sutra; it is also Nichiren's Mind ("I inscribe my Mind in sumi ink"). It is a pictorial representation of ichinen sanzen - which describes the Mind of each and every being.

NMRK is a verbal expression of this Mind - different, but not different from the Mind.

Recall, Nichiren explained the transmission he received at the Ceremony in the Air as the Three Great Secret Laws - The Gohonzon of the Primordial Gate, The Ordination Platform (the Place of Practice) of the Primordial Gate, and the Daimoku of the Primordial Gate.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
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Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Queequeg » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:33 pm

Minobu wrote:
so i wonder if all other Buddhist sects and schools, Mahayana anyway, that teach that we are all Buddhas , get it from the Lotus Sutra.
I ask this for it is quite a marvel if you think about it.
I don't know if they do.

In in the view of the Lotus Schools, there are many sutras that refer to or imply the Primordial Buddha, but none of them explicitly describe the Buddha's life span, except the Lotus and Mahaparinirvana Sutras. Even the first half of the Lotus Sutra is said to be deficient in this respect. In Tientai language, the teaching on the Primordial Buddha is the Perfect or Round Teaching. To be clear, the Primordial Buddha is the Triple Bodied Buddha without beginning or end.

This is not a matter of debate. And I don't offer this as a critique of any other school. I'm not here to debate or engage in comparative discussions. If others have other views, my only response is, "Congratulations!"
Now why do you say always delivered by the Buddha in His Primordial aspect...is this referring to the fact this is the Main Teaching and most important...So when ever it is given He does it this way ..and does He do it over and over all over time and space at different times...
The First Chapter opens with the Buddha shining a beam of light out of the tuft of hair between his eyes illuminating the east so that everyone in the assembly can see all the beings not only churning through samsara, but also treading the Buddha path, and Buddhas appearing in various worlds and teaching. Its like a microcosm vision of ichinen sanzen. I read into it, this is a sort of reference to Upaya - what does the Buddha do when he teaches about the various causes and conditions, the rise and fall of beings in samsara, and the path of liberation but show us a vision of the Buddha Path?

In any event, Maitreya sees this and turns to Manjusri and asks, "What is going on, bra?"

Manjusri then explains, the last time he saw this marvel, the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra, so he believes this Buddha is about to teach the Lotus Sutra.

Each telling is more or less the same story we have here - this is emphasized by the remarkable similarity in each of the predictions of enlightenment that comes in the following chapters.

When the Buddhas teach the Lotus Sutra, Prabhutaratna comes in his giant stupa, levitates the assembly (read the levitation as leaving the realm of cause and effect into the absolute realm), and the Buddha delivers the Lotus Sutra sermon.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Post by Minobu » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:42 pm

thanks, much clearer now

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