Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

illarraza
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby illarraza » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:11 am

Minobu wrote:
I recall a phrase somewhere where Nichiren Shonin said something to the effect of the gods and goddesses don't really benefit those in a state of anger , or that they tend to stay away from those in a state of anger..or anger chases away the gods ,is more like it....really bad memory of this but thats the jist... which is important to recall.


why i used this is to show that mental and emotional states do have en effect on our lives and in the case we are talking about ...our practice .


Reply to Niike, I believe.

Mark

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Maki » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:17 am

Minobu wrote:

Again anything left behind from Shakyamuni Buddha is always relevant. Schools use things for agendas. Like teaching monks that women bleed and thats proof they are evil...no joke it has been used in Buddhist monasteries , to quell monks sitting around thinking about sex...

I see many different schools of thought not just the Lotus Sutra in Nichiren Shonin's Dharma. The Gohonzon and it's use and production from Him is not exactly written about anywhere in the Lotus Sutra. There are things that crop up that jerk memories from other Buddhist Schools.


Uhmm... But you and me are talking about different things. I didn't say any word about people behavior. I was trying to talk about doctrines and their inherent possibilities (linked, of course, with the people capacities and their time). As we can read in many places of Nichiren's works, he studied that matter seriously and extensively.

Anyway, doesn't matter. Mine was just a digression from the text we are studying here.

Be well

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Maki » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:23 pm

In several writings of Nichiren, Nichiren talks about the superiority of faith in the Lotus Sutra to Great Concentration and Insight [Maka Shikan].
Mark


Thanks Mark. As I see (if I understood) for him this superiority is based on superiority of essential teaching of Lotus Sutra vs. any other teaching, also vs. theoretical teaching of Lotus Sutra.

So, an important point for me is to keep in mind that "faith" in Nichiren buddhism is not just a emotional and pious faith (like we can find in many places buddhist and not buddhist, including not religious groups). Is an enlightened faith. Because essential teaching of Lotus Sutra embody it self the Primeval Buddha wisdom.

This comment does not refer to this forum. I say that because I see in this "postmodern" society an extreme confusion about spiritual things. Today people talk like if believe in UFO is the same to belive in Jesus, or any faith is like any other.

Be well

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Minobu » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:20 pm

illarraza wrote:
Maki wrote:Thanks for your answer Queequeg.

Can you elaborate?


I'm afraid I can't be more clear. I bring in my mind this question since I read Nichiren's sayings about the supremacy of faith about knowledge. But this seem be valid only for rational knowledge. I'm not sure if when Nichiren (from Tendai teachings) talks about "see" or "observing" the mind (観心, kanshin) is talking about the same thing he means when talks about faith (信 shin) but under another aspect.

This reminds me an old christian sentence "credo ut intelligo": because I believe, I understand. It means although the people can not understand the revelation, when they believe (when they open their hearts) can get some experience about the reality of revelation. Of course this sentence came from other religious culture but shows a similar problem.

Anyway, I do not want to distract the forum with an "out of topic". I'll try to follow the flow of the posts.

Be well
M.


In several writings of Nichiren, Nichiren talks about the superiority of faith in the Lotus Sutra to Great Concentration and Insight [Maka Shikan].

Mark


First and foremost I Know this. Well ..from a decayed entity struggling in Mappo and groping around various religions and philosophies all my life, I have come to the same conclusion.

I don't deny Tibetan , Mahayana schools in general and various Theravada schools for I realize the number one teaching in the Lotus Sutra is that there appear to be many different vehicles but in fact there is only one. They all come from the Buddha if they are based in compassion and trying to have us sentients live correctly.

That's the meaning of the Buddha turning the Dharma Wheel and all these teachings appear all over Samsara with a plethora of different teachers, gurus and such.

Not everyone is ready or have the necessary karma for this Dharma and need to wait a bit if you will.

That being said i am pleased that my fall from practice wasn't for the rest of my life.
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Minobu » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:24 pm

Maki wrote:Minobu wrote:

Again anything left behind from Shakyamuni Buddha is always relevant. Schools use things for agendas. Like teaching monks that women bleed and thats proof they are evil...no joke it has been used in Buddhist monasteries , to quell monks sitting around thinking about sex...

I see many different schools of thought not just the Lotus Sutra in Nichiren Shonin's Dharma. The Gohonzon and it's use and production from Him is not exactly written about anywhere in the Lotus Sutra. There are things that crop up that jerk memories from other Buddhist Schools.


Uhmm... But you and me are talking about different things. I didn't say any word about people behavior. I was trying to talk about doctrines and their inherent possibilities (linked, of course, with the people capacities and their time). As we can read in many places of Nichiren's works, he studied that matter seriously and extensively.

Anyway, doesn't matter. Mine was just a digression from the text we are studying here.

Be well


Everything said here matters to me...thats why when i offend or post something wrong or even at times inane i always apologise.

I think we are discussing the same thing from different angles. adding and subtracting from the main point we two have fallen into...lol.

I am pleased you say what you say and remind me and bring the pendulum back a bit for me.
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Minobu » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:31 pm

Maki wrote:
In several writings of Nichiren, Nichiren talks about the superiority of faith in the Lotus Sutra to Great Concentration and Insight [Maka Shikan].
Mark


Thanks Mark. As I see (if I understood) for him this superiority is based on superiority of essential teaching of Lotus Sutra vs. any other teaching, also vs. theoretical teaching of Lotus Sutra.

So, an important point for me is to keep in mind that "faith" in Nichiren buddhism is not just a emotional and pious faith (like we can find in many places buddhist and not buddhist, including not religious groups). Is an enlightened faith. Because essential teaching of Lotus Sutra embody it self the Primeval Buddha wisdom.

This comment does not refer to this forum. I say that because I see in this "postmodern" society an extreme confusion about spiritual things. Today people talk like if believe in UFO is the same to belive in Jesus, or any faith is like any other.

Be well


I tend to be less Shakubuku and more Shoju in my professing my faith.

I know that all roads lead to Rome, but don't crush the little inn ,on a way off side road ,giving shelter to those that need that respite at that moment in their travels.


It was done by our Master for a reason , ............. I think learning about it is enough but proselytizing it, is another story..but then again it has to be said...if not it is lost....

what to do?
what to do?
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Maki » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:44 pm

Minobu wrote:
I tend to be less Shakubuku and more Shoju in my professing my faith.


Ok, good for you. But from my side, I'm not professing my faith here. I just was trying to comment Nichiren's teachings about the different doctrines and their implications. But, as I see, even in this forum on a thread about one Nichiren writing, talk about that topic is not easy. There are reactions... Why?

I know historically some Nichiren followers have been too agressive in their statements. But I don't represent any group and I'm not doing proselitism. I just trying to understand the Nichiren teaching under his own perspective. As I see, if someone wants to study Nichiren buddhism has not other way but to consider the Nichiren's positions about other buddhist teachings, and to face words like "superiority" beyond all emotional involvement.

One can to react and think something like "oh, no, this is intolerance, but I am compassive and want to embrace all people and doctrines". Ok, this is lovely... but do not seem the best way to understand Nichiren's doctrine. I prefer to ask "why Nichiren talks about 'superiority' in this case?"

If one ask that question, may discover that the real point is the theory about Original Enlightenment (本覚 hongaku). Because Nichiren thought (or knew) that the essential teaching of Lotus Sutra is the only one teaching which not only shows the Original Enlightenment in a explicit way but also embody it in the letters of Namu Myoho Renge Kyo (the Sacred Tittle) for the sake of the people of Latter Days.


Be well.

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Minobu » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:07 am

Maki wrote:Ok, good for you. But from my side, I'm not professing my faith here.

But, as I see, even in this forum on a thread about one Nichiren writing, talk about that topic is not easy. There are reactions... Why?
. But I don't represent any group and I'm not doing proselitism.


Look it's got to be this medium but for real , i was not accusing of anything that would warrant you to say the above as a comment to what i was implying on you....

it's best to understand this from me...I may seem like i am attacking you but I'm not ...i use your words and then run with them...i did not get anything from you for you to say that stuff in your defence...

but it does bring up another set of valid points if you read what i omitted.

Maki wrote: As I see, if someone wants to study Nichiren buddhism has not other way but to consider the Nichiren's positions about other buddhist teachings, and to face words like "superiority" beyond all emotional involvement.


i think at the time the Japanese were obsessed with this whole superiority thing and the ultimate teaching and the true essence of nature and so on...

Again i can't say it enough the teachings Nichiren Shonin studied are valid.

It's Buddhism , but he did see it from a different angle just like you are saying.

You get what He got out of it all. But that does not mean , what He studied all His life from temple to temple,it's not to be studied anymore and kept for that purpose.

Without Vajrayana teaching, the Gohonzon would not work let alone be produced.

I would love a thread on just that...


Maki wrote:One can to react and think something like "oh, no, this is intolerance, but I am compassive and want to embrace all people and doctrines". Ok, this is lovely... but do not seem the best way to understand Nichiren's doctrine. I prefer to ask "why Nichiren talks about 'superiority' in this case?"


It's not about intolerance and being compassive ??? it's not a word....but i like it....for me ...it's common sense , and not in some politically correct common sense meaning...i mean it is just common sense that He studied Buddhism and took from it. It shaped His whole being. He came up with what I believe the Buddha wanted for the entire existence to have in it's Samsaric grasp. There is something to be said about embracing it all...when i was in the Hokkeko, Nikken Shonin said something about we should all be studying as much Buddhism as we can ...not just Nichiren ShoShu.



cheers
d
Last edited by Minobu on Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Minobu » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:12 am

this is perfect for me so i'm taking it to another thread just to let you know it is the primordial thread.
Maki wrote:the real point is the theory about Original Enlightenment (本覚 hongaku). Because Nichiren thought (or knew) that the essential teaching of Lotus Sutra is the only one teaching which not only shows the Original Enlightenment in a explicit way but also embody it in the letters of Namu Myoho Renge Kyo (the Sacred Tittle) for the sake of the people of Latter Days.


.
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Queequeg » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:29 pm

In Question 18, Nichiren explained that the teaching on universal Buddhahood was explained by Zhiyi Tiantai in China, were passed to Saicho/Dengyo Daishi who brought them to Japan. He urged the disposition of faith/trust/confidence in the teaching.

In Question 19, Nichiren is asked if teachers in India such as Nagarjuna and Vasubandhu were aware of the Three Thousand Realms in a Single Thought. Nichiren declares that they were aware of this teaching, but did not reveal it in full. This is a paraphrase of Tiantai Zhiyi. Here is the passage from the Moho Chih-kuan where Zhiyi explained this in full. This is the conclusion of a longer discussion from Moho Chih-Kuan

Vasubandhu and Nāgārjuna internally had insight and were enlightened, and externally each responded appropriately to the needs of their times on the basis of tentative means. However, some [Buddhist] teachers have a one-sided understanding, and some scholars are carelessly attached [to their own limited interpretation], so that they [argue and fight uselessly,] like shooting arrows at a rock. They each maintain one extreme, and thus pervert the noble path. If you obtain this meaning, then you comprehend both the impossibility of verbal expression and the necessity of verbal expression.


Nagarjuna and Vasubandhu, Zhiyi asserts, were fully aware of the Complete teaching, and abided in it themselves. They did not fully expound the Complete teaching, however. Each addressed particular misconceptions of their contemporaries in their particular times and places. Subsequently, their followers, not appreciating the full scope of the enlightenment of these sages and that their teaching were expedients taught in response to particular causes and conditions, became attached to the particulars of the sages’ teachings to the exclusion of other teachings, leading to endless argumentation and division.

Nichiren pivots back to Tiantai Zhiyi and Dengyo Daishi, who he explains expounded the Complete teaching of the Lotus Sutra. He points out that through their teachings, they were able to benefit thousands, including many who took the doctrine of Ichinen Sanzen and used it to interpret the doctrines of their own schools. This appropriation, far from being a negative is something Zhiyi specifically identified as a fundamental feature of the Lotus Sutra – “Opening the provisional to reveal the real”, meaning, the Lotus Sutra has the power to show the full and complete context of expedient teachings revealing them to be the Complete teaching. So long as they acknowledged this relationship to the Lotus Sutra, this was fine. During the lifetimes of each of these teachers, they were able to establish the Lotus Sutra as the ultimate teaching and win consensual acknowledgment.

What of this Complete teaching?

Nichiren then returns to the question of attaining Buddhahood. Nichiren first quotes a passage from the third chapter of the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra, the introduction to the Lotus Sutra. The passage is part of the description of the Fourth Inconceivable benefit of the Lotus Sutra – here is the passage in full, with the parts quoted by Nichiren in bold:

“Good men, the fourth inconceivable benefit and power of this sutra is this: If living beings are able to hear this sutra, though they hear only one recitation, one verse, or just one line, they will be filled with brave and stalwart thoughts. Though they have not yet saved themselves, they will be able to save others. They will become companions of the bodhisattvas, and the buddhas, the thus come ones, will at all times turn toward such persons when they expound the Dharma. And once these persons have heard it, they will be able to accept and uphold all of it, abide by it without violation, propagate it for the sake of others, and preach it widely in accordance with what is appropriate.

“Good men, such persons will be like a prince newly born to the king of a country and his queen. When he is one day, two days, or seven days old; one month, two months, or seven months old; one year, two years, or seven years old, though he is not yet able to manage the affairs of state, already he is respected and looked up to by the ministers and the people. He is a companion to the sons of other great kings, and the king and queen love and dote on him and are forever talking of him. Why? Because he is still just a child.

“Good men, the person who upholds this sutra will be like this. The buddhas, who are the king, and the sutra, which is the queen, join together in harmony to give birth to this bodhisattva son. If the bodhisattva is able to hear this sutra, whether it is one line or one verse, one repetition, two repetitions, ten, a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, or immeasurable, countless repetitions equal to the sands of a million ten thousand Ganges Rivers, though he cannot fully grasp the extent of its truth
, and though he cannot make the lands of the major world system quake and tremble or with brahma sounds like the roll of thunder turn the great wheel of the Dharma, already he will be revered and looked up to by all the four kinds of believers and eight kinds of guardians, and he will have the great bodhisattvas for his companions. He will enter deeply into the secret Dharma of the buddhas and will be able to expound it without error or omission. He will be constantly guarded and kept in mind by the buddhas, who will pity and love him, favor and shelter him, because he is new in these studies.

“Good men, this is called the fourth benefit and inconceivable power of this sutra.


Merely hearing the sutra leads to upholding it, and doing so is accompanied by great benefits. As Oliver Wendell Holmes remarked, "Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions." Similarly, the Lotus Sutra explains that once you hear the length of the Buddha's life span, your benefits surpass the practice of 5 paramitas, and enlightenment is assured. To illustrate, the world was once thought to be flat. However, once it was demonstrated to be round, a host of fears that once were real - such as falling off the edge of the world, were immediately relieved. A host of other considerations might arise, but never would the fear of falling off the earth into space be one of them. Hearing the Buddha's life span, even if we do not fully understand, casts everything into the context of eternity. Once so contextualized, one cannot undo this insight.

Nichiren next quotes from the Sutra on How to Practice Meditation on Bodhisattva Samantabhadra, the epilogue to the Lotus Sutra. Nichiren quotes selectively, but these are the complete quotes. Here the Buddha teaches the method of visualizing Samantabhadra, and the Buddhas of the ten directions praise the practitioner. Again, the broader context is quoted, with the passages quoted by Nichiren in bold:

“Each of these world-honored ones will stretch out his right hand, pat the practitioner’s head, and speak these words: ‘Excellent, excellent! You practice the Mahayana, you have set your mind on great adornment, you keep the Mahayana in your thoughts. In the past, when we set our own minds on the attainment of enlightenment, we were all like this. You must be diligent and attentive and never falter.

“‘Because in previous existences we practiced the Mahayana, we have now acquired pure bodies of right and universal knowledge. You must now pursue your efforts without slackening. This Mahayana sutra is the treasure storehouse of the buddhas, the eye of the buddhas of the ten directions and the three existences, the seed from which spring the thus come ones of the three existences.

“‘One who upholds this sutra upholds the body of a buddha and practices the deeds of a buddha. You should know that such a person is an envoy sent by the buddhas. The buddhas, world-honored ones, clothe him with their robes. He is a true son of the Dharma of the buddhas, the thus come ones. You should practice the Mahayana and never cut off the seed of the Dharma.


And

“After the Buddha has passed into extinction, if the disciples of the Buddha wish to repent their evil and undesirable acts, they should simply recite and read the Mahayana sutra. This broad and impartial sutra is the eye of the buddhas. It is through this that the buddhas are able to acquire the five types of vision. A buddha’s three types of bodies are born from this broad and impartial sutra. It is the great seal of the Dharma that assures entry into the sea of nirvana. It is from this sea that a buddha’s three types of pure bodies are born. These three types of bodies are fields of good fortune for human and heavenly beings and are highest among those worthy of alms. If a person recites and reads the Mahayana broad and impartial sutra, one should know that such a person is endowed with a buddha’s benefits. All his evils wiped out forever, he is born from the buddha wisdom.


Nichiren points out that this means of attaining Buddhahood, the recitation of the Lotus Sutra, is only taught in the Lotus Sutra. Implicitly acknowledging that other sutras contain similar passages concerning those respective texts, Nichiren then explains that these various sutras were taught by Buddha in his various expedient forms that had identifiable beginnings – ie. their respective enlightenment had a commencement. The Lotus, in contrast, has been taught by Shakyamuni, according to the Theoretical section, since he was the 16th son of Mahabhijna-jnanabhibhu Buddha, and according to the Essential Section, since his enlightenment in the remote (eternal) past. These periods of time during which Shakyamuni has taught the Lotus Sutra are far beyond the scope of any other sutras.

Further, Nichiren points out that the teaching of the Lotus Sutra encompasses the complete Buddhist path, from the initial gate of enlightenment through the assurance of enlightenment. While these various sutras teach the Buddha's sudden attainment of Buddhahood, they do not explain the Buddha's enlightenment in the eternal past nor his constant teaching since then. Nor do they teach the three inherent causes of Buddhahood – the universal Buddhanature, the wisdom to perceive it, and the practice to develop the wisdom.

The Lotus, Nichiren explains, does.

The significance of this time span, and the entirety of the beginning through end of the Buddhist path, is its immense scope. In comparison to the Lotus Sutra, other sutras are of limited scope, and thus properly viewed as derivative of the Lotus Sutra, discrete parts of the Lotus Sutra. They are expedients leading to the full revelation of the Lotus Sutra.

Returning to the theme of the followers of Nagarjuna and Vasubandhu who argue with one another based on attachment to one particular teaching or another, Nichiren refers to the various teachers in China who incorporated Ichinen Sanzen of the Lotus Sutra into the interpretation of the various texts, but then denied this influence. This, Nichiren explained, this denial of the fundamental source of all wisdom expounded in the Lotus Sutra, is the reason for the rise of the various schools who by the Kamakura period had escalated their disputes to armed conflict.

Emphasizing the importance of the Lotus Sutra he concludes,

“Nonetheless, without the seed of Buddhahood established on the basis of the “3,000 realms in a single thought moment,” attainment of Buddhahodd by all sentient beings or the veneration of wooden statues and portraits are empty names without reality.”


---

The Buddha in our Mind is this Primordial Buddha. It is only in reference to this Primordial Buddha, with the three primordial bodies, awakened to the primordial Dharma, that any of the Buddha’s immeasurable teachings have significance.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Maki » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:44 am

At first thank you Queequeg.

All this gosho is very important, but Nichiren developed it like a funnel... He carry us step by step to the most nodal point.

For me here, all that you quoted and commented, Nichiren plays with two meanings or two aspect of the "seed of buddhahood" (仏種). This seed is the "ichinen san zen" inherent, from the time without beginning, and also is the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra.

To put in clear, we can ask: why we cannot attain the buddhahood without the essential teaching of Lotus Sutra if the buddhahood's seed is inherent?

Well, I answer to my own self: because be Buddha is not a logical identity (A=A) but a paradoxical light we have to turn on even if always was already on. We are enlightened but we have to become enlightened...

For to do possible the actualization or manifestation of the Original Enlightened is necessary the teaching which reveals precisely this enlightenment.

So, the Reality -inherent- and the teaching play toghether and are like the two side of one coin.

By the way, this is consistent with the two main traditional meanings of the word Dharma: the Law and the teaching.

I don't know if I can express well what I wanted to say, but I hope you understand.

Just a comment. Thank you again.

Be well

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Minobu » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:16 pm

I recall reading in the Lotus Sutra a very distinct set of rules of conduct . For me they would be impossible to even attempt. Certain criteria of being in a room with a woman etc. I don't wish to insult the Sutra for implying the difficulty is impossible. If we wish to attain Buddhahood do we have to live those rules. I sort of say to myself"Meh next life maybe I will be somewhere where I can fulfill the criteria".

Also noted i wonder why these precepts were tossed to the side in the Gakki. Like wow no one is gonna do that so lets just eliminate the whole concept, for the sake of increasing numbers.

So when Nichiren Shonin expresses that we should practice the Lotus sutra what exactly in a nutshell does that entail.

Is gongyo and chanting , and chanting with Gohonzon it?

I was told once by a Tibetan Geshe on his visit to Vulture/Eagle Peak he met a certain sect of Nichiren Buddhist priests who were only 8 in number but kept all the precepts. He said those 8 were the only ones on the planet completely adhering to the Lotus Sutra as described in the Sutra.

They offered him food after meditating with them. He semi-joked about the mantra to me , that he did it with them. He knew the importance to us for a person to recite it at least once in their lifetime. He said he did indeed chanted it, and then laughed, for he loved all Dharma so much.
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Minobu » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:03 pm

Weird, but I just realized the medicine is Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
Thats the medicine /practice.

I still would like the explanation above and it could help others..but it really just hit me ..it's that simple and it's TRUTH.
wow..heavy moment.

I think the benefit from chanting this is far more advanced than not walking into a room where there is a woman.

Now for give me Lotus Sutra if I just belittled you...I'm aware that I still am a ignorant human, and might not fully understand and could be treading on something sacred and TRUE.
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Queequeg » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:41 pm

Minobu wrote:I recall reading in the Lotus Sutra a very distinct set of rules of conduct .


Chapter 14

This gets into hair splitting, but it pertains to important issues in Lotus Buddhism.

At the beginning of the 14th chapter, Manjusri asks, "“O Bhagavat! How can these bodhisattva mahāsattvas teach this sutra in the troubled world to come?”

When Manjusri refers to "this sutra", he is referring to what the Buddha has preached up to this point in the narrative. We call this the Provisional Lotus Sutra. Manjusri is here asking on behalf of the Assembly gathered in the first half, who just listened to the Provisional/Trace teachings.

For me they would be impossible to even attempt. Certain criteria of being in a room with a woman etc. I don't wish to insult the Sutra for implying the difficulty is impossible. If we wish to attain Buddhahood do we have to live those rules. I sort of say to myself"Meh next life maybe I will be somewhere where I can fulfill the criteria".


Those rules don't apply to you. You were not at the assembly who heard the Provisional Teachings.

At the beginning of the 15th Chapter, this Assembly again asks: “O Bhagavat! If you give us permission to diligently strive to preserve, recite, copy and pay homage to this [Lotus] Sutra after the parinirvāṇa of the Buddha in this sahā world, then we will extensively teach it in this land.”

The Buddha replies, "“Enough, O sons of a virtuous family! There is no need for you to preserve this sutra. Why is this? In my sahā world there are bodhisattva mahāsattvas, equal to the sands of sixty thousand Ganges Rivers in number; and each of these bodhisattvas, in turn, has a retinue equal to the sands of sixty thousand Ganges Rivers. After my parinirvāṇa they can preserve, recite, and extensively teach this sutra.”

At this point, the Earth splits open and the Bodhisattvas of the Earth come pouring out. And so begins the Essential Section of the Lotus Sutra where the real Lotus Sutra is taught.

So, then, what is the actual practice of the Lotus Sutra?

There is the "preserves, recites, explains, or copies this sutra" practice.

According to Nichiren, though, the real practice is "reading with the body" which is equated with the practice of Bodhisattva Sadaparibhuta (Jpn. Fukyo bosatsu; Bodhisattva Never Disparaging):

whenever he saw any monk, nun, layman, or laywoman, he would praise and pay homage to them, saying:

I deeply respect you. I dare not belittle you. Why is this? Because all of you practice the bodhisattva path, and will become buddhas.

“Furthermore, this monk did not concentrate himself on reciting the sutras but only paid homage such that, even when he saw the fourfold assembly from afar, he would go up to them, praise, and pay homage to them, saying:

I dare not belittle you, because you will all become buddhas.


Nichiren explained that Namu Myoho Renge Kyo is another way to state:

"I deeply respect you. I dare not belittle you. Why is this? Because all of you practice the bodhisattva path, and will become buddhas."

So far in the discussion of this Gosho, if we had to identify one theme that Nichiren emphasizes over and over, what would it be?

Your Mind is Buddha.

Sadaparibhuta's practice is honoring everyone he encounters as Buddha.

The practice of the Lotus Sutra, for oneself and for others, is recognizing the Buddhahood of oneself, and the Buddhahood of others.

Try going through a day recognizing everyone as Buddha. Its one thing to sit on a cushion and look at your mind and recognize, "Ah! Buddha!". Its another to recognize that the cashier at the grocery store who doesn't even look up at you when you're checking out is a Buddha, along with that jerk who cut you off, your kids who are over tired and whining, Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, Bashar al Assad, and every other being.

If there is one precept of the Essential Section of the Lotus Sutra - that is it:

"I deeply respect you. I dare not belittle you. Why is this? Because all of you practice the bodhisattva path, and will become buddhas."

I was told once by a Tibetan Geshe on his visit to Vulture/Eagle Peak he met a certain sect of Nichiren Buddhist priests who were only 8 in number but kept all the precepts. He said those 8 were the only ones on the planet completely adhering to the Lotus Sutra as described in the Sutra.

They offered him food after meditating with them. He semi-joked about the mantra to me , that he did it with them. He knew the importance to us for a person to recite it at least once in their lifetime. He said he did indeed chanted it, and then laughed, for he loved all Dharma so much.


I saw a video on youtube of the Dalai Lama chanting Daimoku.

:shrug:
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

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Minobu
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Minobu » Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:21 pm

Ok so i never really got the whole transient teaching / provisional teachings...and now i wasn't there for the first part so the rules don't apply to me?

I'm a little hard headed at times and this is more than splitting hairs.

Rules r rules...Karma is Karma ..

Also at the other site, many moons ago in a far off galaxy.. .mark's site, i believe he got really ill?
any way i think it was you and Robin Beck having this lengthy discussion about honmon and shakumon??
are these those.
As he died to make men holy
Let us die to make things cheap
And say the Mea Culpa which you’ve probably forgot
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narhwal90
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby narhwal90 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:18 pm

Thanks Minobu, I had been toying with posting about that too- that and the primordial buddha and the wrangling over ichinen sanzen never made a lot of sense to me. Which isn't say I dismiss it, only that I don't get what all the drama is about. The practice I learned in NSA and follow in SGI goes on just fine without reference to those arguments... otoh I tend to take a functional view no doubt others have a different perspective.

Its true the SGI doesn't teach the Precepts (neither did the NSA before), OTOH no-one is dissuaded from discovering them and trying to act accordingly, and acting contrarily will have the obvious consequences. The same applies to various of the other lists.

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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Minobu » Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:14 pm

narhwal90 wrote:Thanks Minobu, I had been toying with posting about that too- that and the primordial buddha and the wrangling over ichinen sanzen never made a lot of sense to me. Which isn't say I dismiss it, only that I don't get what all the drama is about. The practice I learned in NSA and follow in SGI goes on just fine without reference to those arguments... otoh I tend to take a functional view no doubt others have a different perspective.

Its true the SGI doesn't teach the Precepts (neither did the NSA before), OTOH no-one is dissuaded from discovering them and trying to act accordingly, and acting contrarily will have the obvious consequences. The same applies to various of the other lists.


Well Ichinen Sanzen is finally making sense to me, although the not to mention new Physics as in Quantum and Bio centric stuff has a lot to do with how i can now grapple with it/....///

As for Drama...ah yes the drama based discussions /debates....best to be avoided//usually initiated by people still grappling...so you end up with grappling over the grapple.../

As for functional view...for you to come out of that multi level marketing organization selling everyone on the magic aspect of it....and find a functional practice...thats a start...


I am practicing with what the Lotus Sutra has initiated in me...A head space....learning so i can know what i am doing ,/// developing a body and mind that can perceive and produce the enlightenment pointed to and nicely laid out for us by the Great Masters ////


today i am into these /// ///// ////and looking towards the future// /
As he died to make men holy
Let us die to make things cheap
And say the Mea Culpa which you’ve probably forgot
Year by year
Month by month
Day by day
Thought by thought

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illarraza
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby illarraza » Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:28 am

Maki wrote:At first thank you Queequeg.

All this gosho is very important, but Nichiren developed it like a funnel... He carry us step by step to the most nodal point.

For me here, all that you quoted and commented, Nichiren plays with two meanings or two aspect of the "seed of buddhahood" (仏種). This seed is the "ichinen san zen" inherent, from the time without beginning, and also is the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra.

To put in clear, we can ask: why we cannot attain the buddhahood without the essential teaching of Lotus Sutra if the buddhahood's seed is inherent?

Well, I answer to my own self: because be Buddha is not a logical identity (A=A) but a paradoxical light we have to turn on even if always was already on. We are enlightened but we have to become enlightened...

For to do possible the actualization or manifestation of the Original Enlightened is necessary the teaching which reveals precisely this enlightenment.

So, the Reality -inherent- and the teaching play toghether and are like the two side of one coin.

By the way, this is consistent with the two main traditional meanings of the word Dharma: the Law and the teaching.

I don't know if I can express well what I wanted to say, but I hope you understand.

Just a comment. Thank you again.

Be well


Whether having received the seeds in the past or not, all attain Buddhahood through the Lotus Sutra

"Similarly, there are those who, never having received the seeds of the Lotus Sutra in their past existences, joined in the assembly of the preaching of the Flower Garland Sutra but could never reach even thefirst stage of development or the first stage of security; who were present when the Buddha preached his sermon at Deer Park but were unable to cut off the illusions of thought and desire; or who could not gain rebirth in any of the nine categories even through the Meditation Sutra. They succeeded only in advancing to the stage of worthies as expounded in the Mahayana and Hinayana teachings, but were never able to reach the stage of sages. But when they encountered the Lotus Sutra and for the first time received the seeds of Buddhahood in the field of the mind, they were able in the space of a single lifetime to advance to the first stage of development or the first stage of security. And there were others who attended the assembly of the preaching of the Nirvana Sutra and continued to practice into the years after the Buddha’s passing.

Among those who received the seeds of the Lotus Sutra in the past, some, depending upon the degree of firmness with which they were bound to the teachings, were able through the impetus of the Flower Garland Sutra to advance to the first stage of development or the first stage of security; others who through the impetus of the Āgama sutras were able to cut off the illusions of thought and desire and become persons of the two vehicles; and others who through the impetus of the practices associated with the nine categories of rebirth expounded in the Meditation and the other Pure Land sutras were able to gain rebirth in the Pure Land. And from this we may surmise that such persons could profit in a similar manner from the Correct and Equal and the Wisdom sutras as well. But in all such cases, these results were not due to the power of the various sutras that provided the impetus; they were due entirely to the power of the Lotus Sutra.

It is like the case of a daughter of a commoner who has become pregnant with the seed of a king, or a daughter of a family of officials who has become pregnant by a king. Others are unaware of the truth and suppose that the sons born to these women are the offspring of a commoner or a man of the official class, but when the king looks at them, he knows that they are all in fact the offspring of a king. Similarly, some persons appear to have gained release from the threefold worldthrough the sutras preached prior to the Lotus, but seen from the point of view of the Lotus Sutra, they have in all cases in fact gained the way through the Lotus Sutra.

Again, among those who received the seeds of the Lotus Sutra in the past, there are some persons of dull capacity who were not able, like those mentioned above, to advance in their understanding through the sutras preached prior to the Lotus, but were able to gain the way when they heard Shakyamuni preach the Lotus Sutra. In such cases, the sutras that preceded the Lotus were to them like the wet nurses who help to bring up the crown prince or the other royal sons of the king’s consort.

Or again, although the situation was not the same as when Shakyamuni Buddha was present in the world, there were persons in the thousand years of the Former Day of the Law who, having received the seeds of the Lotus Sutra in the past, were at that time able to gain enlightenment through the Lotus and Nirvana sutras. And there were many others at that time who had received the seeds of the Lotus Sutra from Shakyamuni Buddha when he was in the world.

In addition, although the Buddha was no longer in the world, the Lotus Sutra remained in existence, and there were countless persons who were able for that reason to convert from the doctrines of the non-Buddhists to the teachings of the Hinayana sutras, from the Hinayanas utras to the provisional Mahayana teachings, or from the provisional Mahayana teachings to the Lotus Sutra. Bodhisattva Nāgārjuna, Bodhisattva Asanga, the scholar Vasubandhu, and others were examples of this.

During the thousand years of the Middle Day of the Law, although their number was not as great as in the Former Day of the Law, there were still some persons who had received the seeds of the Lotus Sutra in the distant past or later, in Shakyamuni’s time. But as the power of the Buddha’s teachings waned and grew increasingly weaker, the various schools became firmer than rocks in the fixity of their one-sided interpretations, loftier than mountains in their arrogance. By the end of the Middle Day of the Law, contention and dispute over the Buddhist teachings had broken out on every side, battles over questions of doctrine never ceased, and the number of persons who fell into the hell of incessant suffering because of misinterpretations of the Buddhist teachings surpassed that of those who did so because of worldly offenses.

Now, moreover, we are two hundred or more years into the Latter Day of the Law, and persons who have received the seeds of the Lotus Sutra in the distant past or in Shakyamuni’s time have with time become fewer and fewer. In addition, though there appear to be a small number of persons who have received the seeds of the Lotus, there are countless others who commit great evil in the secular world or slander the Law in the religious world, such persons veritably filling the whole land. Those who do good have become as rare as water in the midst of a great fire, fire in the midst of a great body of water, fresh water in the midst of the ocean, or gold in the midst of the earth. Evil deeds abound, and there is no trace of good deeds done in the past or evidence of good deeds done now.

Some persons use the practice of reciting the name of Amida Buddha to mislead others and persuade them to abandon the Lotus Sutra, committing the error of turning their backs on what is superior and following what is inferior. Others propound the principles of theZen school, calling them a special transmission “outside the sutras” and claiming that the so-called Buddhist teachings are not the true Law, disparaging the teachings in this way and displaying an attitude of great arrogance. Still others advocate the doctrines of the Dharma Characteristics, Three Treatises, or Flower Garland schools and relegate the Lotus Sutra to an inferior position, or proclaim themselves adherents of the True Word, or Mahāvairochana, school, asserting that the Lotus Sutra embodies only the exoteric teachings of the Thus Come One Shakyamuni and cannot compare to the doctrines upheld by the True Word school.

In this way, some persons go astray in doctrinal matters of their own accord, others do so because of the teachers they rely upon. Some propound mistaken doctrines handed down from the founder of the school or its scholars and teachers, propagating them over the long years and claiming that these are the true doctrine. Others, possessed by evil spirits or by the heavenly devil, spread evil doctrines, believing them to be the correct teaching. Some, having become familiar with some petty doctrine of Hinayana, arrogantly claim that the doctrines practiced byMahayana believers are in error, and in their eagerness to spread their little doctrine attempt to suppress or take over the mountain temples where great doctrines and secret doctrines are taught. Then there are those other fellows who, having become possessed by a devil called the devil of compassion, don their three robes, take up their one alms bowl, and practice the one teaching of Hinayana, with their little doctrine confronting the temples of Mount Hiei, which are the rafters and roof beam of the entire nation, and Mount Hiei’s leaders, who are paragons of wisdom, and because the doctrines taught by these leaders are at variance with their own, presuming to call them men of erroneous views and men of evil.

With evil opinions such as this, these men proceed to deceive the rulers of the nation, leading them woefully astray and causing them to lose faith in the correct teaching. Such men do nothing but bring about the destruction of the nation and the destruction of Buddhism.

[In ancient China] the royal consorts Mo Hsi, Ta Chi, and Pao Ssu were charming in manner and excelled all others in beauty. But because the rulers in their foolishness became infatuated with them, these women brought about the downfall of the nation. And now Zen priests, Precepts priests, and Nembutsu advocates of our own time such as Shōichi, Dōryū, Ryōkan, Dōami, Nen’ami, and other teachers of their kind are like domestic pigeons that peck at filth, or like the beautiful Hsi-shih who deceived the king of Wu. They adhere to their Hinayana precepts, which are like stinking waste or donkey’s milk, . . ."

There are two processes and two general types of people, according to Nichiren Daishonin: Those who received the seeds of Buddhahood in the past, those in the Higher Six Worlds; and those who never received the seeds, those in the Lower Four Worlds. For those who have already received the seeds, the Daimoku functions to water the seeds. For those who never received the seeds, hearing the Daimoku [Law] is the seed and practicing the Daimoku is the water. He states, “But many who neither received the seeds of Buddhahood nor formed ties with the Buddha in past existences…” and further along, “The sutra explains that all bodhisattvas, persons of the two vehicles, and human and heavenly beings received the seeds of Buddhahood numberless major world system dust particle kalpas ago.” Therefore, when he asserts, “If people do not possess innate Buddha wisdom, how could the Buddha say he wanted to open it? One must understand that Buddha wisdom is inherent in all human beings.” [Even those in the Four Lower Worlds who do not possess the Buddha seeds]. How do we reconcile these seemingly diverse teachings? The only way we can resolve the contradictions is that the the Buddha-nature is the FIELD of good fortune synonymous with Buddha wisdom in all beings but without the Buddha seeds and water of Myoho renge kyo, the field will lie fallow and Buddhahood will never open [manifest].

Mark

Maki
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Maki » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:55 am

Mark wrote:

Therefore, when he asserts, “If people do not possess innate Buddha wisdom, how could the Buddha say he wanted to open it? One must understand that Buddha wisdom is inherent in all human beings.” [Even those in the Four Lower Worlds who do not possess the Buddha seeds]. How do we reconcile these seemingly diverse teachings? The only way we can resolve the contradictions is that the the Buddha-nature is the FIELD of good fortune synonymous with Buddha wisdom in all beings but without the Buddha seeds and water of Myoho renge kyo, the field will lie fallow and Buddhahood will never open



That's what I referred to in my own words, as best I could.

By the way, it indicates that Nichiren Buddhism does not endorse the idea of a spontaneous illumination like certain Zen stories. I say this not as much by Zen or other religions but because since western people discovered east texts, many new ilusions have appeared in the world. I remember an author (an Osho follower who finally built his own school) talking about his own spontaneous ilumination when a butterfly unexpectedly touched his nose...

Well, we live in open societies and of course anyone can think and say what he wants... But for me, trying to follow a true spiritual path, is clear that not all ways are equal, because, as Nichiren teached, different beliefs produce different consequences on the spiritual life.

This circle: inherent wisdom → adecuate teaching → actual wisom, stresses the importance of the teaching. Because if not, the origin (inherent wisdom) remains in a mere word.

Be well.

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Minobu
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Re: Study Group: Kanjin no Honzon sho

Postby Minobu » Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:44 pm

just a note seeing Nagarjuna is one of the lineage masters.
He taught Sunyata /emptiness of all things/ nothing is inherent.
It's that which causes the big difference in the concept of Atman (inherant soul)in Hindu belief systems and the Buddhist mind.

Once you describe something as inherent it no longer becomes a Buddhist principle/ for everything is co arising and interdependent. hence nothing including Buddha Nature can be inherent. that does not mean Buddha Nature does not exist , just the way to VIEW IT.

carry on.

d
As he died to make men holy
Let us die to make things cheap
And say the Mea Culpa which you’ve probably forgot
Year by year
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Day by day
Thought by thought

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