Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

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Minobu
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Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Minobu » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:23 pm

ok random thoughts ....you take from them what you will...

Lord Nagarjuna. you either believe or don't believe i guess.
it all comes back to haunt me now and then..

authenticity...where did the Sutra originate...who created it or is it a Dharmakaya thing.

does it matter...maybe not...
We need to eventually just trust Nichiren Shonin and His advent and Work.
no trust...then leave it be....

Even if it is fiction based , He ,Nichiren Shonin ,imbued it with Real Buddhism.
We all know that who practice, and see it in so many different personal ways ...this time out the gate...my relationship with people in the street and stuff...changed...drastically over one night...everything became ...as it was when i first started to chant and noticed something...hard to explain further...I did forget though , for i have not chanted in so long....


Nichiren Shonin left something that actually works at getting in touch with your Buddha Nature and the Protective Forces...along with learning basic Buddhism.

It afforded me way more than other practices and paradigms.

I wonder then if I've misjudged Ikeda?
Maybe he is more than we take him for...The Gakki is more than likely at this juncture in time,the best place to direct a shakabuku...where else would they be cared for and nourished.

The kindness and compassion of the Gakki ....I was reminded of that by someone here at this site... then i thought about this place online..Dharma wheel forums...Blood sport...people vying to see how much they can hurt one another in the name of learning...nightmare online..brings out the worse in me...why?...these are Buddhist supposedly , and yet they revel in one upmanship on roids... Got the same at various churches in christianity...sort of anyway...jealousy and egos clashing....The Gakki wasn't like that...basically anyway...

back to Ikeda

ok there is stuff that bugs some of us...welll weigh the values... Is he really some ego maniacal bastard in the guise of a compassionate follower of Nichiren Shonin...All corporations are judged from the top down...back to that camaraderie at the Gakki...who is responsible for that. did ikeda have a lot to do with that...this young boy from ruins of Tokyo WWII era.

ok so randomness ...leave it up to people if they wish to jump in and ask questions... or comment..

after all it's a minobu thread... :rolleye: :crazy: :focus: :jawdrop: :hug:
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Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Queequeg » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:46 pm

Minobu, I edited the title of the thread... to fit:

Minobu wrote:ok random thoughts ....you take from them what you will...




Lord Nagarjuna. you either believe or don't believe i guess.
it all comes back to haunt me now and then..


What are you referring to? His legend? Or his writings?

authenticity...where did the Sutra originate...who created it or is it a Dharmakaya thing.


1. The Buddha spoke them, they were passed down orally, and then committed to writing centuries later.
2. They were composed by inspired story tellers; Buddha Vacana.
3. Some of them were found in various places, hidden away until such time as the time was right for their discovery.

:shrug:

does it matter...maybe not...
We need to eventually just trust Nichiren Shonin and His advent and Work.
no trust...then leave it be....

Even if it is fiction based , He ,Nichiren Shonin ,imbued it with Real Buddhism.


Throughout Lotus Buddhism, there is an implicit understanding that the real meaning of the texts is beyond the words. For instance, in Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra, Zhiyi Tiantai explained that there is the Lotus as a metaphor for the sublime teaching. Particularly, the instantaneous nature of cause and effect. If you pay close attention, the Lotus Sutra itself explains this. In the voice of Shakyamuni:

“O sons of a virtuous family! During this interim I explained about the Buddha Dīpaṃkara and others. Furthermore, I also said that they had entered parinirvāṇa. I have explained such things through skillful means.


So is Dipamkara historical or not?!!!! :shrug: He most definitely is upaya (expedient/skillful means).

“O sons of a virtuous family! If any sentient being comes to me, I perceive the dullness or sharpness of his faith and other faculties with my buddhaeye. According to the way I should bring them to the path, I, myself, proclaim different names and lifespans in various places. In each case I have also clearly stated that I would enter parinirvāṇa. Through various skillful means I have explained subtle teachings and have made the sentient beings rejoice.

“O sons of a virtuous family! To those beings whom the Tathāgata perceives as taking pleasure in the inferior teachings, who have few qualities and grave defilements, he teaches that the Buddha attained highest, complete enlightenment after he renounced household life in his young age. However, it has been a very long time indeed since I attained buddhahood. I give such an explanation only to lead and inspire the sentient beings to enter the buddha path through skillful means.


Depending on how smart the people I am addressing are, I tell them different things. If all they can see is the rising and falling within this life, I tell them I was born at Lumbini, attained enlightenment at Gaya, and taught them at Sarnath, for instance. In other places I tell them something different. I tell them I live this long, or that long. That my name is this, or that. Whatever they need to hear to be drawn along the path. Then I tell them, I'm going to die. I appear to them as [fill in the name of Buddha or Bodhisattva] and tell them that I will live for x number of years, my teaching will endure of y number of years, etc. etc. etc... but...

“O sons of a virtuous family! The sutras that the Tathāgata has expounded are all to save the sentient beings. Whether the Tathāgata teaches about himself or others, whether he reveals his form or that of others, whether he shows his acts or those of others, everything he says is true, never false.


All these stories I tell you, about myself or others (not clear if they are all made up, but... its all as real as a conjured woman, so to speak; as real as the Buddha's birth at Lumbini... as real as your birth...) but none of the stories are false.

“Why is this? Because the Tathāgata perceives all the marks of the triple world as they really are: that there is no birth and death, coming or going; that there is also no existence or extinction in the world, truth or falsehood, sameness or difference. The Tathāgata does not view the triple world as sentient beings in the triple world see it. The Tathāgata perceives such things clearly and without mistakes.

“Since sentient beings have various natures, desires, behaviors, thoughts, and distinctions, the Tathāgata, wanting to cause them to plant roots of good merit, has explained various teachings through a variety of examples, explanations, and illustrations. He has not desisted from doing buddha acts even for a single moment and in this way it has been an extremely long time since I attained buddhahood. My lifespan is immeasurable and incalculable. I abide forever without entering parinirvāṇa.


There are four standards to approach the Buddhist teachings - (1) to rely on the Dharma and not upon persons; (2) to rely on the meaning of the teaching and not upon the words; (3) to rely on wisdom and not upon discriminative thinking; and (4) to rely on sutras that are complete and final and not upon those that are not complete and final.

If you understand the point of the Lotus Sutra, does it really matter whether the story about a giant stupa floating up in the air is true or not? At this point, we come to what Zhiyi described as the Lotus of the Entity. The reality of the Lotus Sutra. The look the Buddha gives you when he wordlessly asks, "Do you understand now?" and nods in agreement with Many Treasures Buddha. Nichiren's invocation of the Daimoku as the executioner's blade hung over his neck. What is real? NMRK. NMRK. NMRK.

I wonder then if I've misjudged Ikeda?
Maybe he is more than we take him for..


I believe he lost faith. When the test came, when he faced his executioner's sword, he opted for the logic of samsara.

In contrast, when the test came for Toda and Makiguchi, they gave up everything, surrendered. Makiguchi stoically faced his fate. Toda excalimed "NAMU!" and carried on even when his teacher died.

Soka Gakkai is not Ikeda's life force (mandala). Its Makiguchi and Toda. Ikeda's participation in that mandala was broken when he did not follow through on the path that opened with the schism. He opted for opposition, to just be another faction asserting the legacy of the DaiGohonzon, rather than transcendence, leaving all that BS behind and forging on into the open path.

.The Gakki is more than likely at this juncture in time,the best place to direct a shakabuku...where else would they be cared for and nourished... The kindness and compassion of the Gakki ....I was reminded of that by someone here at this site...


That was Toda's legacy. That was the man who lost everything, who's teacher died in prison, who set the wheel in motion among ghosts in fire bombed Tokyo.

My view is that Soka Gakkai will regain its vitality when they once and for all repudiate the Nichiren Shoshu concepts that hang like a pall over the whole place. That was Ikeda's test, and he retreated to corporate thinking.

It should have been Mr. Williams.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

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Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby john perry » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:12 pm

I'm wondering if the priesthood will ever restore back to normal. Or are we going to see things to continue to decline.

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Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Queequeg » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:26 pm

john perry wrote:I'm wondering if the priesthood will ever restore back to normal. Or are we going to see things to continue to decline.

When you say "priesthood" you mean Nichiren Shoshu?

There will be no reconciliation between Shoshu and Soka Gakkai.

As for decline.... who's not declining?
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Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Minobu » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:48 am

Well I'm glad you see the Gakki still has potential.

I love the way you desecribe Toda and Makiguchi .. still i wonder about Ikeda..is there any possibility that he is Realized.
I mean the power he unleashed in the form of the Gakki...but like you said that was all Toda. his comaraderie and compasion and heart felt yearning for people to be happy again.

this thread is my muse.

good name for a title and what I'm going through.
not to forget
with a little help from me Friends
As he died to make men holy
Let us die to make things cheap
And say the Mea Culpa which you’ve probably forgot
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Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Minobu » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:54 am

Queequeg wrote:
john perry wrote:I'm wondering if the priesthood will ever restore back to normal. Or are we going to see things to continue to decline.

When you say "priesthood" you mean Nichiren Shoshu?

There will be no reconciliation between Shoshu and Soka Gakkai.

As for decline.... who's not declining?


can you explain what this meant for you...
i don;t get it.

As for decline.... who's not declining?
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Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Queequeg » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:36 pm

Minobu wrote:
can you explain what this meant for you...
i don;t get it.

As for decline.... who's not declining?


Put up your dukkhas. The first noble truth, more or less.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
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Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Minobu » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:40 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Minobu wrote:
can you explain what this meant for you...
i don;t get it.

As for decline.... who's not declining?


Put up your dukkhas. The first noble truth, more or less.

I don't think the spiritual decline , or Age of Mappo , is due to suffering.
The decline is brought on by a build up of collective Karma, my take on it anyway.
It chips away at the ease of Dharma being assimilated in sentients.
As he died to make men holy
Let us die to make things cheap
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Re: Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Minobu » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:24 pm

Thanks as requested to change the title back, and more

I hope people from all sects join in and help this aging wanderer called Minobu..
for thats this thread...my thoughts and people's thoughts to help me out of this quagmire of confession and confusion..

it's only there because i'm serious about my practice and Buddhism in general.

and thank you Queequeg, it's not easy dealing with me...lol
d
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Re: Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Queequeg » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:46 pm

Queequeg wrote:Makiguchi stoically faced his fate. Toda excalimed "NAMU!" and carried on even when his teacher died.


Makiguchi was imprisoned for refusing to worship the Emperor. Toda followed him because he was his teacher. IIRC, Toda did not really know if what he was doing was the right thing, but trusted his teacher. His insight on reading the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra happened because of his imprisonment and de facto solitary retreat. It was that insight that propelled his activity after release from prison.

In a sense, that defiance exempted Soka Gakkai from association with the Japanese military government and the aggression across Asia. That was why they could expand overseas, especially in Asia, without the stench of Imperial Japan.
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Re: Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Queequeg » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:49 pm

Minobu wrote:
Put up your dukkhas. The first noble truth, more or less.

I don't think the spiritual decline , or Age of Mappo , is due to suffering.
The decline is brought on by a build up of collective Karma, my take on it anyway.
It chips away at the ease of Dharma being assimilated in sentients.


Its entropy and enthalpy.
And what you said.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
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Re: Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Minobu » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:01 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Queequeg wrote:Makiguchi stoically faced his fate. Toda excalimed "NAMU!" and carried on even when his teacher died.


Makiguchi was imprisoned for refusing to worship the Emperor. Toda followed him because he was his teacher. IIRC, Toda did not really know if what he was doing was the right thing, but trusted his teacher. His insight on reading the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra happened because of his imprisonment and de facto solitary retreat. It was that insight that propelled his activity after release from prison.

In a sense, that defiance exempted Soka Gakkai from association with the Japanese military government and the aggression across Asia. That was why they could expand overseas, especially in Asia, without the stench of Imperial Japan.

Interesting..
what is IIRC
As he died to make men holy
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And say the Mea Culpa which you’ve probably forgot
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Re: Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Minobu » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:00 pm

I wanted to mention the teacher student relationship you brought up.

awhile back I was intrigued at the thought of Lord Buddha Nagarjuna being in the capacity of a Dharma Kaya teacher.
A little bit of a dilemna between Nichiren Shonin being one as well.
that being a Dharma Kaya teacher.

I don;t know if there is even a thing like this in Nichiren Buddhism.
well Buddha Manjushri was a teacher of a few of the masters in Tibet..

back to what you said on the subject..

the "Trust" shown to us by Toda is amazing. to follow his teacher into prison , sort of blindly following Makiguchi's ideals.
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Re: Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Queequeg » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:28 pm

Minobu wrote:I wanted to mention the teacher student relationship you brought up.

awhile back I was intrigued at the thought of Lord Buddha Nagarjuna being in the capacity of a Dharma Kaya teacher.
A little bit of a dilemna between Nichiren Shonin being one as well.
that being a Dharma Kaya teacher.


I don't know about Nagarjuna... I've heard him described as a second Buddha. I don't know enough about him to consider that.

Nichiren was not dharmakaya... he suggested that he was Bodhisattva Visistacaritra, if not in fact, then in function.

the "Trust" shown to us by Toda is amazing. to follow his teacher into prison , sort of blindly following Makiguchi's ideals.


That's that Japanese Master-Disciple thing. Westerners don't like it.

This idea permeates Nichiren Buddhism, though.

Nichiren wrote about itai doshin - many in body, one in mind. One in mind, being NMRK, many in body being the individual expression of the practice for oneself and for others.

Nichiren wrote a few letters about the devotion to the master after Tatsunokuchi - he remarked about some of his monk disciples who were imprisoned. Also Shijo Kingo who accompanied Nichiren to the execution ground and resolved to die with him. And of course, the Atsuhara Persecution where three lay supporters were executed and several others imprisoned. The latter incident inspired Nichiren to inscribe the Gohonzon and not keep the mandala secret anymore. The fact that people who he had never met refused to renounce their devotion and give their lives, he took that as a sign that the Mind of the Lotus Sutra was established in the world and spreading and taking on a life of its own.

This is also the idea underlying the whole hokkegyoja - practitioner of the Lotus Sutra - the person who enters the tathagata's room, puts on the tathagata's robes, sits on the tathagata's throne. Even if they share only a few lines of the sutra, they are said to be the Buddha's envoys, carrying on the Buddha's work, carrying on the Buddha's intention to make all beings equal to him.
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Re: Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby john perry » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:42 pm

If we are in decline, then wouldn't that mean this is the best we are going to get as far as numbers of Nicherin believers. Then as time goes by, the number of nichiren believers will continue to decline.

Yet, nichiren talks about kosen Rufu. 1/3 practicing 1/3 support for kosen Rufu, 1/3 non opposition.

There's a contradiction, which makes things confusing.

How can kosen Rufu be established when we are in decline.

It's like going in two different directions at the same time.

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Re: Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Queequeg » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:18 pm

john perry wrote:If we are in decline, then wouldn't that mean this is the best we are going to get as far as numbers of Nicherin believers. Then as time goes by, the number of nichiren believers will continue to decline.


Does that really matter? I'm not responsible for some Zaimu or Shakubuku campaign. :shrug:


Yet, nichiren talks about kosen Rufu. 1/3 practicing 1/3 support for kosen Rufu, 1/3 non opposition.


That's not Nichiren. Without looking it up, I believe that is Toda.
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Re: Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Minobu » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:13 pm

Queequeg wrote:he took that as a sign that the Mind of the Lotus Sutra was established in the world and spreading and taking on a life of its own.

This is also the idea underlying the whole hokkegyoja - practitioner of the Lotus Sutra - the person who enters the tathagata's room, puts on the tathagata's robes, sits on the tathagata's throne. Even if they share only a few lines of the sutra, they are said to be the Buddha's envoys, carrying on the Buddha's work, carrying on the Buddha's intention to make all beings equal to him.


you have given me so many things Queequeg.

this is one.

The concept that Lotus Sutra is so much more than just a Sutra or teaching.
you gave it a life of it's own for me.

something I can embrace like it's so much more a real Thing , than it was before.
It's the Buddha , right?

Every aspect of my relationship with the Lotus Sutra has changed with your words of wisdom which throws me into the concept of "IT" as an entity.
I've taken it a step further and gave it that term.
maybe i should back off a little. ????

or embrace it freely in this paradigm of thought ?????
do you grok that.
d
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Re: Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Minobu » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:41 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Nichiren was not dharmakaya... he suggested that he was Bodhisattva Visistacaritra, if not in fact, then in function.

.

you see this is one of those things you have given me.
This has been bounced around between me and you in various forms.
Here, in the above quote from you, it is in it's blatant form, for me to see something.

I tend to to go into realms of Buddhist thought not really taught in the "Kosher" sense.

The Buddha's Dharma Kaya Body, for me and one of the the ways I perceive it, can be contacted.
Then again, why bother, the Buddha is aware of all the students of Buddhism and is directing them in various capacities...whole other thought pattern for moi.

so this contact thing is more of a BroMance thing, for me.
side note..up here in Canada the BroMance between Obama and Trudeau is well documented and commented on ad nauseam. they get along really well.

so what you do is break that down and make me realize that It's the relationship with the Buddha and The Lotus Sutra that Nichiren Shonin wished for us to develop , not Him. The Dharma Kaya Body relationship i seek is maybe no longer necessary now that i see so lucidly The Lotus Sutra as The Primordial Buddha , with Entourage in tow.

I've been toying with various guru relationships, one being Lord Buddha Nagarjuna.

Maybe i'm bored and need to play outside more.
As he died to make men holy
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Re: Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Queequeg » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:21 pm

Minobu wrote:
Queequeg wrote:
Nichiren was not dharmakaya... he suggested that he was Bodhisattva Visistacaritra, if not in fact, then in function.

.

The Buddha's Dharma Kaya Body, for me and one of the the ways I perceive it, can be contacted.
Then again, why bother, the Buddha is aware of all the students of Buddhism and is directing them in various capacities...whole other thought pattern for moi.


In a sense, its all dharmakaya - like Malcolm asserted a while back. In Tiantai language, every color and scent is the Middle Way/Buddha Nature. You and I are Middle Way/Buddha Nature; Dharmakaya as well as Sambhoga and Nirmanakayas - we just don't realize what that means. We know these words, maybe we know a little about what this means, but the full implications will be understood at Buddhahood.

It's the relationship with the Buddha and The Lotus Sutra that Nichiren Shonin wished for us to develop , not Him.


Nichiren Shoshu teaches that Nichiren is the Primordial Buddha. There are a few others, including Soka Gakkai, who subscribe to that view. They propose that certain passages in Nichiren's writings are such claims by Nichiren - "I am the Pillar of Japan" for instance. The passages where he explicitly identified with Visistacaritra (Jogyo) are dismissed as expressions of humility. It takes a lot of footnoting to get the meaning they assert. In my experience its bull shit. And worse, it will create an obstacle to understanding and create frustration as you find yourself in an unfounded and illogical dead end. That was my experience. Maybe others didn't find that. I'd love to hear what they found. You don't have to take my word for it, but my opinion is that this is an erroneous path that will do nothing but clutter your mind and require unlearning commensurate with how deeply it has been internalized.

In the so-called Ten World Mandalas Nichiren inscribed, you find the brush strokes extend all over the page. These are rays of light permeating from Myoho Renge Kyo, reaching to the assembly who signify beings in the ten worlds. Its exactly what you observe - the direct connection each has to the Lotus Sutra/Daimoku/True Aspect of Reality. If you want to understand reality, what should you orient yourself to? Reality, duh. NMRK is, literally, an expression of refuge in Reality.

Further, Nichiren inserts himself into the mandala, but where is he? He is on the ground, indicating that he, Nichiren, the man, is within the conditioned realm, carrying on the Buddha's work in the midst of the suffering of the saha world.

At the most fundamental level, the Buddha taught that we suffer because we misapprehend reality. The cure for suffering is then resolving our misapprehension. This resolution begins with the decision to orient ourselves to reality shown to us by the Buddha. Only the Buddha knows reality, so only the Buddha can show us. Visistacaritra is a bodhisattva who was shown reality in the infinite past and his practice is the example for all of us - hence his name, Visistacaritra - Superior Practices. Nichiren, being Visistacaritra, in fact or in function, showed us this, capturing this teaching in the six syllable NMRK.
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Re: Minobu's Muse: Lord Nagarjuna, The Lotus Sutra, The Gakki

Postby Queequeg » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:25 pm

Minobu wrote:what is IIRC


If I Recall Correctly
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller


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