Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

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Minobu
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Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by Minobu » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:03 pm

There is a bit of a bother going on in my head about Lord Buddha Nagarjuna .

some say he is not a Buddha and that it is merely a label imputed upon Him.
Some say He never lived nine hundred years.

Some come to terms with the age factor by saying there are two Nagarjunas.
How can they be comfortable with that and not the other.

both of which i believe face the obvious possibility of being wrong.

Did He actually retrieve The Lotus Sutra or produce it .
If produced was it a genuine Dharma Kaya Mahayana Teaching as i understand Mahayana Teachings, to be produced after the Historic Buddha's passing, of entering Nirvana.


For me ,I like things a little more lucid , even if they sound far fetched to the mundane self. Faith is understandable , but it should at least be directed at a Truth, whether perceived or not.

To me at my juncture of practice i see a lineage leading to Buddhahood for the common mortal in an age of Dharma Decline.
That being the teachings of Nichiren Shonin.

It starts historically with Lord Buddha Nagarjuna, picked up and polished by Tien Tai The Great and finally handed down for world wide consumption by Nichiren Shonin.
I say consumption for I see as late that all spiritual practice in this age of decline is one of consumption , like any other aspect of human endeavour at this juncture in our legacy and history.

I guess the whole thing goes out the window if one does not believe we are in an age of Decline in regards to all Dharma .

I love the forum for it brings out all forms of angles i never thought of or as this thread states in OP , creates a dilemma in my mindstream ....with the possibility it is also produced in others.

Bless
d

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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by discussionbuddhist » Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:10 pm

Minobu wrote:There is a bit of a bother going on in my head about Lord Buddha Nagarjuna .

some say he is not a Buddha and that it is merely a label imputed upon Him.
Some say He never lived nine hundred years.

Some come to terms with the age factor by saying there are two Nagarjunas.
How can they be comfortable with that and not the other.

both of which i believe face the obvious possibility of being wrong.

Did He actually retrieve The Lotus Sutra or produce it .
If produced was it a genuine Dharma Kaya Mahayana Teaching as i understand Mahayana Teachings, to be produced after the Historic Buddha's passing, of entering Nirvana.


For me ,I like things a little more lucid , even if they sound far fetched to the mundane self. Faith is understandable , but it should at least be directed at a Truth, whether perceived or not.

To me at my juncture of practice i see a lineage leading to Buddhahood for the common mortal in an age of Dharma Decline.
That being the teachings of Nichiren Shonin.

It starts historically with Lord Buddha Nagarjuna, picked up and polished by Tien Tai The Great and finally handed down for world wide consumption by Nichiren Shonin.
I say consumption for I see as late that all spiritual practice in this age of decline is one of consumption , like any other aspect of human endeavour at this juncture in our legacy and history.

I guess the whole thing goes out the window if one does not believe we are in an age of Decline in regards to all Dharma .

I love the forum for it brings out all forms of angles i never thought of or as this thread states in OP , creates a dilemma in my mindstream ....with the possibility it is also produced in others.

Bless
d
Hi again Minobu,
First of all I want to say thanks for introducing Nagajuna as Buddha into the forum. I've recently been reading about Nagarjuna and am starting to believe that he is a Buddha so I think you are right, so keep your faith up. I hope you could share how you got this info though because there's not many sources online regarding this. I really want to know more about Nagarjuna so anything you know would help with my learning.

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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by Minobu » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:50 pm

discussionbuddhist wrote:
Hi again Minobu,
First of all I want to say thanks for introducing Nagajuna as Buddha into the forum. I've recently been reading about Nagarjuna and am starting to believe that he is a Buddha so I think you are right, so keep your faith up. I hope you could share how you got this info though because there's not many sources online regarding this. I really want to know more about Nagarjuna so anything you know would help with my learning.
Hi ..It does my heart good to hear from you in this way.
I was taught by a Tibetan Rinpoche about Lord Buddha Nagarjuna, had a mystical lady give me her interpretation of what took place for the recovery of the Lotus Sutra which is said to have been in safe keeping with the Nagas at the bottom of the Ocean, and have read stuff.

After all Lord Buddha Nagarjuna is responsable for me practicing Lotus Buddhism. So I adore Him... and I as well want to know everything i can....

I guess one can take this stuff as reality , metaphor or just plain stories that are made up.

I was taught by guru that He lived for nine hundred years, something someone here denies and said actually there were two Nagarjunas due to His body of works. A lot of modern day people turn what was acceptable for thousands of years into metaphor and something that could be deemed more scientific ...and yet they believe in the Pure Lands and going there after death...guaranteed of if you do certain things or say certain things.

odd is that EH! hold unto the fantastic and deem fantastic fable at the exact same time...

He could not die due to His Bodhisattva state and His last karma was that He had walked on and killed an ant so he used that to free Himself and attain Buddhahood by asking someone to kill him in retribution for it...He had to make retribution for that one final negative karma...then due to His Total Cleansing was able to enter Nirvana

My friend the spiritualist ,explained or more reminded me, that The whole King of The Naga people was about Kundalini . He was accomplished in this and during one of His deep Samadhi meditations retrieved the Lotus Sutra from the Naga people at the bottom of an Ocean.....you can fill in the blanks ...for there are some ....no one here has commented on that particulars statement....


so do you have anything to add or ask the forum?

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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by DGA » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:11 am

Minobu wrote: I was taught by a Tibetan Rinpoche about Lord Buddha Nagarjuna, had a mystical lady give me her interpretation of what took place for the recovery of the Lotus Sutra which is said to have been in safe keeping with the Nagas at the bottom of the Ocean, and have read stuff.
I have also been taught by Tibetan Rinpoches about Nagarjuna, and I have also read stuff, but the part in bold seems extraordinary. Would you please elaborate a bit on your meaning here?

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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by Dharmic » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:01 am

Hi Minobu,

I read that there were two or more persons named Nāgārjuna. All these persons having the same name - Nāgārjuna, wrote many different works.When biographies were being produced long time later some people got confused and assumed that the diverse works by various Nāgārjunas were written by the famous Master who lived between circa 150 CE - 250 CE near Nāgārjunakoṇḍa.

Taishō Tripiṭaka - No. 2047 (Pages 15 - 27) is a biography of Ārya Nāgārjuna translated by Kumārajīva (334 CE - 413 CE).

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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by Minobu » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:14 am

DGA wrote:
Minobu wrote: I was taught by a Tibetan Rinpoche about Lord Buddha Nagarjuna, had a mystical lady give me her interpretation of what took place for the recovery of the Lotus Sutra which is said to have been in safe keeping with the Nagas at the bottom of the Ocean, and have read stuff.
I have also been taught by Tibetan Rinpoches about Nagarjuna, and I have also read stuff, but the part in bold seems extraordinary. Would you please elaborate a bit on your meaning here?
The Lotus Sutra was kept secret and safe ,at the bottom of the ocean by nagas until Lord Buddha Nagarjuna went down and retrieved them..

This is taught in Lotus Buddhism ...ask Q....it's up to interpretation ...

for me this did not exactly happen with him holding his breath and going to depths that would crush some submarines and get the Sutra from the Nagas that way.

I am pretty sure it was done in some form of meditative state..

just a note though...i do believe He lived Nine hundred years.



were you not taught that the Nagas kept The Lotus sutra safe and secret at the bottom of the Ocean....

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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by Minobu » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:16 am

Dharmic wrote:Hi Minobu,

I read that there were two or more persons named Nāgārjuna. All these persons having the same name - Nāgārjuna, wrote many different works.When biographies were being produced long time later some people got confused and assumed that the diverse works by various Nāgārjunas were written by the famous Master who lived between circa 150 CE - 250 CE near Nāgārjunakoṇḍa.

Taishō Tripiṭaka - No. 2047 (Pages 15 - 27) is a biography of Ārya Nāgārjuna translated by Kumārajīva (334 CE - 413 CE).

:anjali:
Actually Lord Buddha Nagarjuna could not die, hence nine hundred years of life....He had to be killed...which intern let Him off the hook for walking on an ant and killing the ant in a past life....by hook i mean a karmic thing.

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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:20 pm

Minobu wrote: This is taught in Lotus Buddhism ...ask Q....it's up to interpretation ...
I don't know about this.

If I've heard anything, its that the Lotus Sutra was recorded and handed down selectively for the first 500 years after the Buddha's Parinirvana, and then was spread with the rest of the Mahayana.
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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:15 am

The Life of Nágárjuna (Lhudrub Nyingpo?) seems like it might be one early literary attestation of the story of Nágárjuna receiving the Prajñápáramitásútráni (not the Lotus Sútra, oddly enough) from the realm of the Nagas.

The language of myth is obscure and hidden. The Lhudrub Nyingpo is by the Venerable Thrangu Rinpoche, I do not know who he is or when he dates from, his book could be new for all I know.

Consider, the nagas are traditionally the guardians of (hidden) knowledge in Near Eastern as well as Indian mytho-history (the serpent in the garden of Eden, believed by the Gnostics to be the "true God", as opposed by the evil vain God of the Old Testament, or the serpent who eats the knowledge of the cultivation of the tree of life in the Epic of Gilgamesh).

From what ocean did Nágárjuna emerge after alleged communion with the Nagas? "Ocean" means many things in Buddhism. We call the Dalai Lama the "Ocean of Wisdom" do we not?

A little bit of a vague post, but hopefully at least the OP enjoys reading it.
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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by The Cicada » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:45 am

Coëmgenu wrote:Consider, the nagas are traditionally the guardians of (hidden) knowledge in Near Eastern as well as Indian mytho-history (the serpent in the garden of Eden, believed by the Gnostics to be the "true God", as opposed by the evil vain God of the Old Testament, or the serpent who eats the knowledge of the cultivation of the tree of life in the Epic of Gilgamesh).

From what ocean did Nágárjuna emerge after alleged communion with the Nagas? "Ocean" means many things in Buddhism. We call the Dalai Lama the "Ocean of Wisdom" do we not?
Probably the far Pacific off of the coast of Central America. The nagas sound like Quetzalcoatl's peeps. Mexicans were definitely responsible for this.

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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by Dharmic » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:54 am

Hi,

I'm assuming that the biography I linked in my previous post is an early biography as it states ," It has been one hundred years since he [Nāgārjuna] passed away ".
Taishō Tripiṭaka - No. 2047 (Pages 15 - 27) is a biography of Ārya Nāgārjuna translated by Kumārajīva (334 CE - 413 CE).
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Nāgārjuna could not have had a physical body for 900 years as the biography explicitly mentions otherwise. An other text (not the biography) says that he lived for 200 years. I assume this means that he lived for long time - longer than most others. Considering that life expectancy was quite low in the past, his lifespan was probably something like a record, a thing the biographers felt was worthy of noting down. (Just like we note down the details of the very few people in contemporary world who are over 110-115 years.) Also it could be to emphasize that he dedicated his long life, until the very end, to teach Dharma.

The biography does speak of his encounter with a Nāga - the Mahānāga Bodhisattva i.e. a Bodhisattva. In the Sūtras it is said that Bodhisattvas can take any form to teach Dharma. For example, the Kāraṇḍavyūha Sūtra says that can Avalokiteśvara can take the form of a Nāga to teach Dharma. This is one among the many manifestations of the Bodhisattva.(Reference attached below). If Mahānāga is a Bodhisattva Mahāsattva then whatever form he manifests serves the purpose.
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The biography does not mention names of any Sūtras. It only says that he studied many Vaipulya Śāstras given by the Mahānāga Bodhisattva and attained realization. Out of compassion for other people Ārya Nāgārjuna wrote many works to assist people in understanding the Mahāyāna teachings.

:anjali:
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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by Minobu » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:56 am

Coëmgenu wrote:The Life of Nágárjuna (Lhudrub Nyingpo?) seems like it might be one early literary attestation of the story of Nágárjuna receiving the Prajñápáramitásútráni (not the Lotus Sútra, oddly enough) from the realm of the Nagas.

The language of myth is obscure and hidden. The Lhudrub Nyingpo is by the Venerable Thrangu Rinpoche, I do not know who he is or when he dates from, his book could be new for all I know.

Consider, the nagas are traditionally the guardians of (hidden) knowledge in Near Eastern as well as Indian mytho-history (the serpent in the garden of Eden, believed by the Gnostics to be the "true God", as opposed by the evil vain God of the Old Testament, or the serpent who eats the knowledge of the cultivation of the tree of life in the Epic of Gilgamesh).

From what ocean did Nágárjuna emerge after alleged communion with the Nagas? "Ocean" means many things in Buddhism. We call the Dalai Lama the "Ocean of Wisdom" do we not?

A little bit of a vague post, but hopefully at least the OP enjoys reading it.

yea h thanks very much.

The first i heard if this was in my early introduction to the soka Gakki. It was first taught to me by them.

if you google it it is vague but on reddit someone said the same.


i did not know about the 500 hundred period.

I assumed everyone would know.

the person who told me about it being a meditation thing was also from the Gakki same period as me, in fact i introduced her to gakki,

I'm not making this up and i think i discussed with Rinpoche when they talked about Lord Nagarjuna , or was it Geshe la?

don;t know but this is the first time people that are into Buddhism don;t know what i am on about ....lol...


agian thanks for the Ocean thing...that jives well with what i was taught.

I even think Malcolm knew what i was saying about this somewhere...also could be wrong..
lets ask him.

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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by discussionbuddhist » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:01 pm

Minobu wrote: Hi ..It does my heart good to hear from you in this way.
I was taught by a Tibetan Rinpoche about Lord Buddha Nagarjuna, had a mystical lady give me her interpretation of what took place for the recovery of the Lotus Sutra which is said to have been in safe keeping with the Nagas at the bottom of the Ocean, and have read stuff.

After all Lord Buddha Nagarjuna is responsable for me practicing Lotus Buddhism. So I adore Him... and I as well want to know everything i can....

I guess one can take this stuff as reality , metaphor or just plain stories that are made up.

I was taught by guru that He lived for nine hundred years, something someone here denies and said actually there were two Nagarjunas due to His body of works. A lot of modern day people turn what was acceptable for thousands of years into metaphor and something that could be deemed more scientific ...and yet they believe in the Pure Lands and going there after death...guaranteed of if you do certain things or say certain things.

odd is that EH! hold unto the fantastic and deem fantastic fable at the exact same time...

He could not die due to His Bodhisattva state and His last karma was that He had walked on and killed an ant so he used that to free Himself and attain Buddhahood by asking someone to kill him in retribution for it...He had to make retribution for that one final negative karma...then due to His Total Cleansing was able to enter Nirvana

My friend the spiritualist ,explained or more reminded me, that The whole King of The Naga people was about Kundalini . He was accomplished in this and during one of His deep Samadhi meditations retrieved the Lotus Sutra from the Naga people at the bottom of an Ocean.....you can fill in the blanks ...for there are some ....no one here has commented on that particulars statement....


so do you have anything to add or ask the forum?
It's not hard for me to believe that Nagarjuna retrieved teachings from the nagas. I think you're right that he entered a meditative state to accomplish it. Asanga, another contributor of Mahayana Buddhism did the same when he received teachings from the bodhisattva Maitreya in the Tushita realm.

It's possible that Nagarjuna lived hundreds of years because he's known to be a prominent figure in Rasa Shastra or external alchemy. Hinduism and Taoism have teachings about alchemy turning people into immortals so that could be the reason how he lived for hundreds of years.

Nagarjuna helped me with my faith on Pureland Buddhism as he is a prominent Buddhist figure that taught about Amitabha. I learned about it from http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/Nagarjun ... ctice.html. According to the link, Nagarjuna wrote about Amitabha in Dasabhumika Vibhasa Shastra. He mentions it as an easy path (compared to other practices) to progress on the spiritual path by gaining enlightenment in Amitbha's pureland, Sukhavati.

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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by Minobu » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:36 pm

Dharmic wrote:Hi Minobu,

I read that there were two or more persons named Nāgārjuna. All these persons having the same name - Nāgārjuna, wrote many different works.When biographies were being produced long time later some people got confused and assumed that the diverse works by various Nāgārjunas were written by the famous Master who lived between circa 150 CE - 250 CE near Nāgārjunakoṇḍa.

Taishō Tripiṭaka - No. 2047 (Pages 15 - 27) is a biography of Ārya Nāgārjuna translated by Kumārajīva (334 CE - 413 CE).

:anjali:
So this biography is the first i heard...

Is it possible it is fake news so to speak...

why is this not some huge thing in the scholarly world...

people like to change stuff they do not understand ,or believe in, with all sorts of tricks for the common good.
I'm not knocking you source but could you give me credible evidence of the claims as to it..

Did Kumarajive really write it...or did someone use his name for credibility and fame.

people here believe in the Rainbow Body but they don't believe in Lord Buddha Nagarjuna's lifespan.

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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by Queequeg » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:50 pm

In East Asia which hosted a form of Mahayana that branched off of Indian Buddhism earlier than the Mahayana that spread to the Tibetan world, Nagarjuna was not 900 years old. I suspect there was no need for this kind of story because the more recent stuff attributed to Nagarjuna did not spread there. Then again, maybe East Asia just missed out on the later Nagarjuna work.
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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by Dharmic » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:32 pm

Minobu wrote:
Dharmic wrote: Taishō Tripiṭaka - No. 2047 (Pages 15 - 27) is a biography of Ārya Nāgārjuna translated by Kumārajīva (334 CE - 413 CE).
So this biography is the first i heard...

Is it possible it is fake news so to speak...

why is this not some huge thing in the scholarly world...

people like to change stuff they do not understand ,or believe in, with all sorts of tricks for the common good.
I'm not knocking you source but could you give me credible evidence of the claims as to it..

Did Kumarajive really write it...or did someone use his name for credibility and fame.

people here believe in the Rainbow Body but they don't believe in Lord Buddha Nagarjuna's lifespan.
Hi Minobu,

At the end of the day you are free to believe whatever you want to. If you are interested in the research done by historians on Nāgārjuna's life and works, search for it. If you feel that there could be some issues with the biography (like authenticity, tampering etc.) then contact Numata Center for Buddhist Translation and Research - http://www.bdkamerica.org/translation-m ... hist-canon

The Tripiṭaka being translated by the BDK English Tripiṭaka Project is the Chinese Tripiṭaka, which was published over several years in Japan in the early part of the 20th century: The Taishō Shinshū Daizōkyō. It is generally known as the “Taishō Edition,” and contains 2,920 works (3,053 including variant versions), 11,970 fascicles and 80,645 pages.

The total number of Tripiṭaka scriptures which have thus far been translated from Chinese into English is very limited, and moreover, the English translation of the Tripiṭaka can be said to be almost non-existent. In order to have the many peoples of the world come to know the teachings of the Buddha, Rev. Dr. Numata believed that an English translation of the Tripiṭaka was essential.

To realize this goal, in 1986 Rev. Dr. Numata established the BDK English Tripiṭaka Project in Berkeley, California to facilitate this effort, which
includes Buddhist scholars from throughout the world to assist in undertaking this translation project.

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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by Minobu » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:46 pm

Dharmic wrote:
Hi Minobu,


:toilet:
well thank you for your input and sarcasm in the thread.

the thread is about Reality and Myth.
Some people have agendas bringing the Buddhisms into the modern age of science and doing away with legend and myth.

everyone's input is welcome ...it's exactly the sort of thing i wanted ..not the sarcasm..it leads to ill feelings...but hey this a world of filth and disease as well as a Pure Land simultaneously so YAYNESS GALORE !!!

I just need to know stuff and am wary of everything these days for i realize , like psychologists and many people with doctorates of law and phd's to put on the wall...they extort us with their agendas.. for personal fame and profit...

we tread carefully here in minobu land.
:hi:

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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by DGA » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:36 am

Minobu wrote:
DGA wrote:
Minobu wrote: I was taught by a Tibetan Rinpoche about Lord Buddha Nagarjuna, had a mystical lady give me her interpretation of what took place for the recovery of the Lotus Sutra which is said to have been in safe keeping with the Nagas at the bottom of the Ocean, and have read stuff.
I have also been taught by Tibetan Rinpoches about Nagarjuna, and I have also read stuff, but the part in bold seems extraordinary. Would you please elaborate a bit on your meaning here?
The Lotus Sutra was kept secret and safe ,at the bottom of the ocean by nagas until Lord Buddha Nagarjuna went down and retrieved them..

This is taught in Lotus Buddhism ...ask Q....it's up to interpretation ...

for me this did not exactly happen with him holding his breath and going to depths that would crush some submarines and get the Sutra from the Nagas that way.

I am pretty sure it was done in some form of meditative state..

just a note though...i do believe He lived Nine hundred years.



were you not taught that the Nagas kept The Lotus sutra safe and secret at the bottom of the Ocean....
I have been taught that some Buddhist teachings were protected by Nagas for a certain period of time. But I have never been taught by "a mystical lady." That is what I meant by "extraordinary." Who was this person, if you don't mind me asking?

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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by odysseus » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:04 am

I don't believe he lived for 900 years, but yes, Nagarjuna is a real Buddhist saint. His contribution is great.
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Re: Lord Buddha Nagarjuna Reality or myth.

Post by Minobu » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:14 am

DGA wrote:
Minobu wrote:
DGA wrote:
I have also been taught by Tibetan Rinpoches about Nagarjuna, and I have also read stuff, but the part in bold seems extraordinary. Would you please elaborate a bit on your meaning here?
The Lotus Sutra was kept secret and safe ,at the bottom of the ocean by nagas until Lord Buddha Nagarjuna went down and retrieved them..

This is taught in Lotus Buddhism ...ask Q....it's up to interpretation ...

for me this did not exactly happen with him holding his breath and going to depths that would crush some submarines and get the Sutra from the Nagas that way.

I am pretty sure it was done in some form of meditative state..

just a note though...i do believe He lived Nine hundred years.



were you not taught that the Nagas kept The Lotus sutra safe and secret at the bottom of the Ocean....
I have been taught that some Buddhist teachings were protected by Nagas for a certain period of time. But I have never been taught by "a mystical lady." That is what I meant by "extraordinary." Who was this person, if you don't mind me asking?
we used to refer to these people as good friends in Buddhism.

Other than that just take it from me...she reminded me that certain times need certain people to recover things from certain places not easy to get to.
she goes by the name Jean.

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