Nichiren/tendai original enlightenment

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Minobu
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Re: Nichiren/tendai original enlightenment

Post by Minobu » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:15 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Minobu wrote:it's all from Buddha , everything.
Do you mean viewing all contact at the sense bases as misunderstood contact with the expounding of the Lotus Sutra? Or the body of Mahāvairocana?
Seishin wrote:
Minobu wrote: i don't think so...but when one says all things come from Tathāgatagarbha it's just another creationist theory.
Please can you show me who and where is says "all things come from Tathāgatagarbha"...... :thinking:
I cannot find what i accused Q of saying...and i am pretty sure he did not use the word tathagatgharba...We were in a conversation about creationism and he referred to Buddha or original enlightenment or something or other is responsible for everything coming about or appearing....more thats not the words he used ..lol.....i cannot find the posts ...he said in with what i feel is deep respect and wants to show me something...and i want to show him....lol...fun times!

but read these quotes again

One of the major discourses of medieval Japanese Buddhism involved
the concept of original enlightenment (hongaku 本覚、. While the term
“original enlightenment thought,is today used very loosely to indicate
any sort of innate Buddha-nature concept, in the medieval period
hongaku had a more specific meaning as a particular Tendai reading
of the Lotus Sutra,
From the perspective of this doctrine, all things, just as they are, manifest
the true aspect of reality and are the Buddha of primordial
enlightenment. Seen in their true light, all forms or daily conduct,
even one's delusive thoughts, are, without transformation, the expressions
of original enlightenment.The purpose of religious practice is
not to achieve a distant buddhahood in the future, but to realize that
one is Buddha from the outset.
i don't know about you, but i read a sort of everything comes from original enlightenment from this...and it does not jive with what i believe ...

i feel buddhism has fallen into an easy form of creationism to explain stuff...

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Seishin
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Re: Nichiren/tendai original enlightenment

Post by Seishin » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:22 am

Think about this for a while; "comes from (ie created by)"... vs.... "expression of (ie is no different to)"....

Then take a look at the "Honbutsu" (Original Buddha) discussion here https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=24304

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Nichiren/tendai original enlightenment

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:13 am

Seishin wrote:"Honbutsu"
Another way to look at it. If there "is" a honbutsu, then there "is" a hongaku?

That's a bit "mechanistic", but still, a justification.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Minobu
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Re: Nichiren/tendai original enlightenment

Post by Minobu » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:21 pm

Seishin wrote:Think about this for a while; "comes from (ie created by)"... vs.... "expression of (ie is no different to)"....

Then take a look at the "Honbutsu" (Original Buddha) discussion here https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=24304
well their is a concept of The Buddha of Kuon Ganjo , which some believe as i was taught and held the belief of for some time is Nichiren Daishonin.
How one interprets that is another story as well.

I never knew of a primordial Buddha concept at the time of my indoctrination of this concept.
And i have always been of the school of thought that a Buddha was an ordinary common mortal sentient that awakened to something and attained Buddhahood.
so this Kuon Ganjo Buddha for me was just the first guy / girl to do so.

I see this
"comes from (ie created by)"... vs.... "expression of (ie is no different to
as a danger when it comes to thinking some sort of original enlightenment is the cause for everything....

I seem to be alone in this as of late....at least here at DW.

the whole Primordial Buddha , which for a large part of the tibetan community i was subject to is nothing other than a concept that the jury is still out on. from one Rinpoche Tulku he said and i quote "This happened so long ago that there is nobody around anymore that can remember it"

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Minobu
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Re: Nichiren/tendai original enlightenment

Post by Minobu » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:24 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Seishin wrote:"Honbutsu"
Another way to look at it. If there "is" a honbutsu, then there "is" a hongaku?

That's a bit "mechanistic", but still, a justification.
as far as these concepts go that makes sense, but we are talking about enlightenment and there are zero people around that can attest to being enlightened and so all this arm chair Buddha stuff is bordering the ridiculous side of egos at times for me.

I come to the realization , once again, to turn to trust in my practice and see where that intuits me.
this place does not afford that.

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Re: Nichiren/tendai original enlightenment

Post by illarraza » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:58 pm

Nichiren demolishes SGI Original Enlightenment Doctrine..."Entered" not "welled up from"

"As for these three important things, it is not that Nichiren said it. It was the spirit of the Tathagata Shakyamuni that entered my body and filled it with a joy far greater than what it deserved. This is the important teaching of the Lotus Sutra called 'one thought is three thousand realms.' The scripture says, 'All existence has such a form ...' What does this mean? Because 'appearance', the first of the Ten Suchnesses, is the most important, the Buddha appeared in the world. The beginning of Nichiren's believing in the Lotus Sutra is like one drop of one atom in the country of Japan. If two people, three people, ten people, and millions and billions of people recite the Lotus Sutra, then it would become the Mt. Sumeru of Subtle Enlightenment or a great ocean of Nirvana. One should not look for any other way for becoming a Buddha." -- Senji Sho (An Essay on the Selection of the Proper Time)

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Re: Nichiren/tendai original enlightenment

Post by JazzIsTvRicky » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:19 am

Maybe I am a little slow. But I haven't seen many doctrinal offerings by Nichiren concerning 'Original Enlightenment' :shrug:

Nichiren Teaches: :reading:

"Thus the three truths expressed in the first three of the ten factors and the three truths expressed in the remaining seven factors are simply this one doctrine of the three truths. The first three factors and the remaining seven factors are the principle contained within our own lives and are simply one thing, wonderful beyond comprehension. Hence it is stated in the sutra that they are marked by complete consistency from beginning to end. This is what is meant by the words “consistency from beginning to end.”

The first three factors are the “beginning,” and the remaining seven factors are the “end.” These make up the ten factors, which constitute the three truths contained within our own lives.

These three truths may also be called the Thus Come One of the three bodies. Outside of our own minds and bodies, there does not exist the tiniest trace of anything pertaining either to good or evil. Therefore we know that we ourselves are in fact Thus Come Ones of original enlightenment, possessors of the three bodies within a single body.

To suppose that what has been described here is something quite removed from oneself is to be what is called an ordinary living being, to be in a state of delusion, to be an ordinary mortal. But to understand that this applies to oneself is to be what is called a Thus Come One, to be in a state of enlightenment, to be a sage, to be a person of wisdom.

Once one realizes this and can visualize it clearly, then one’s life, as it really is, manifests itself in one’s present existence as the Thus Come One of original enlightenment, and one achieves what is termed the attainment of Buddhahood in one’s present form."
On the Ten Factors


Sincerely Richard H Brown A Votary of The Gohonzon of Nam Myoho Renge
A فوتاري أوف ذي غوهونزون أوف نام ميوهو رينج كيو

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Minobu
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Re: Nichiren/tendai original enlightenment

Post by Minobu » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:02 pm

Seishin wrote:
Minobu wrote:Tiendai thought is hongaku and speaks of everything including everything...comes from original enlightenment ...my way of looking at a creationist falsehood.
:thinking: I believe you are talking about "Hon-butsu" here, rather than "Hon-gaku"? :thinking:
how can you have honbutsu / Original Buddha without the doctrine of Hongaku/original enlightenment?

you need the doctrine to come to the conclusion of this primordial enlightenment and primordial Buddha.

the problem for me is this.
Sunyata explains everything is co arising , codependent which led to the conclusion that nothing is inherent .
Lord Buddha Nagarjuna stated that nothing is inherent...thats the whole thing about emptiness...empty of what? why empty? it's empty of inherent existence. so when you get this , you see the emptiness of it all.

A primordial anything...a primordial source, a primordial Buddha , goes against the very view of Sunyata.
in order to have it ...one would have to say everything is absent of inherency except Primordial Buddha and Primordial Original enlightenment.

which would toss the whole thing out the window.

it's easy to say everything comes from a primordial source.Buddha would have said it Himself and taught about it quite plainly...

But it isn't true and would and does throw one off of the reality of the situation..and therefore is a cause for you not realizing the ultimate reality, or enlightened view.


now i say this like i know it....but i don't know it...just that this is the juncture i am at on this topic which i keep coming back to ...

it is not so far from the thought of God the creator, the creation and then Jesus Christ being a nirmanakaya of God.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Nichiren/tendai original enlightenment

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:55 pm

Minobu wrote:you need the doctrine to come to the conclusion of this primordial enlightenment and primordial Buddha.

the problem for me is this.
Sunyata explains everything is co arising , codependent which led to the conclusion that nothing is inherent .
Lord Buddha Nagarjuna stated that nothing is inherent...thats the whole thing about emptiness...empty of what? why empty? it's empty of inherent existence. so when you get this , you see the emptiness of it all.

A primordial anything...a primordial source, a primordial Buddha , goes against the very view of Sunyata.
in order to have it ...one would have to say everything is absent of inherency except Primordial Buddha and Primordial Original enlightenment.
One could also approach the matter in light of Ven Nāgārjuna's analysis of nirvāṇa, or Ven Zhìyǐ's "misunderstanding the dharmakāya as the path of suffering".

If we can posit an endlessly regressing saṃsāra in the past, then we can also posit an endlessly regressing nirvāṇa in the past too.

It does seem to be an arbitrary position though, but it helps some people to frame progress, attainment, or enlightenment, on terms of realizing something that they "originally" have. Someone has probably brought this up already, but it brings to mind the śrāvaka discourse AN 1.49-52, Pabhassarasutta:
“Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements.”

“Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements.”

“Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn’t discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that—for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person—there is no development of the mind.”

“Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that—for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones—there is development of the mind.”
Citta is luminous regardless of defilement or freedom. This could be interpreted as a hongaku discourse, if one are willing to... ehem... "open up the upāyāḥ" a little, whether that is justified or not.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.



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