What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

JazzIsTvRicky
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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by JazzIsTvRicky » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:39 pm

Nichiren is the one who Inscribed The Gohonzon of Nam Myoho Kyo. This is a Nichiren Buddhist Forum yet all of you are Stuck on Shakyamuni’s Teachings above that of Nichiren’s Buddhism!

There is no Buddhism of Shayamuni’s within the Practice of Nichiren’s Buddhism otherwise say you actually practice Shakyamuni’s Buddhism. Which has no power in this age!

That is most evident in your arguments in the Debate here

viewtopic.php?t=23047

Your affinity towards Recitation of Shakyamuni’s Lotus Sutra is proof of your misunderstanding of Faith in Nichiren’s Gohonzon of Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.

I feel your need to cling needlessly to Provisional Teachings and lack of understanding of Faith in Nichiren’s Teachings and his purpose which he alone fulfilled!

There is no validity of Shakyamuni’s Buddhism as a Practice in the Latter Day of The Law in Nichiren’s Buddhism!

This is what I believe!
A فوتاري أوف ذي غوهونزون أوف نام ميوهو رينج كيو

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Queequeg » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:41 pm

Might be relevant.

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=22444
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Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:37 pm

JazzIsTvRicky wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:39 pm
That is most evident in your arguments in the Debate here

viewtopic.php?t=23047
Are you capable of explaining what those arguments actually are?

In order to respond to something you should first be able to rephrase it in such a way as that your opponent agrees with it. That's how one knows that they understand what is being said at all.

So this is not a sarcastic comment, it is a serious question: do you understand at all any of the arguments that have been put to you? Can you explain any single one of them?
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by DGA » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:54 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:22 pm
DGA wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:40 pm
If so, what is the difference between a follower (disciple?) and an emanation? Are these two terms translating the same or different characters?
I just quoted the text. It speaks for itself. As for emanation/disciple, just a flourish. Not sure about the characters.
I'm not so sure that it does--hence my questions. But I'll leave that alone for now.

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Minobu » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:55 pm

JazzIsTvRicky wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:39 pm
Nichiren is the one who Inscribed The Gohonzon of Nam Myoho Kyo. This is a Nichiren Buddhist Forum yet all of you are Stuck on Shakyamuni’s Teachings above that of Nichiren’s Buddhism!

There is no Buddhism of Shayamuni’s within the Practice of Nichiren’s Buddhism otherwise say you actually practice Shakyamuni’s Buddhism. Which has no power in this age!

That is most evident in your arguments in the Debate here

viewtopic.php?t=23047

Your affinity towards Recitation of Shakyamuni’s Lotus Sutra is proof of your misunderstanding of Faith in Nichiren’s Gohonzon of Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.

I feel your need to cling needlessly to Provisional Teachings and lack of understanding of Faith in Nichiren’s Teachings and his purpose which he alone fulfilled!

There is no validity of Shakyamuni’s Buddhism as a Practice in the Latter Day of The Law in Nichiren’s Buddhism!

This is what I believe!
may i ask you. :hi:
when you say provisional Buddha and provisional teachings, what do you mean ?
and what would Nichiren daishonin be considered...what word would you use to describe him other than provisional, because i don't get what you mean by provincial buddha and one that is something other...what is the something other..

i just realized you never answer a question posed to you and i just ended up asking you in the weirdest way possible... :thinking:

ok fingers crossed hope you answer so we know what you are talking about. and more importantly if you know what a provisional buddha is and what would be the word for a non provisional Buddha and teaching? :hi:

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Minobu » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:59 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:50 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:51 am
what translation did you use that explains that they played chess back when this Lotus Sutra was written .
BDK. Available here: http://www.bdk.or.jp/english/english_tr ... nload.html

Not sure if this is a gloss. Probably is. The description of pure lands being laid out on grids with straight lines is standard.
really?...standard?? ..they usually talk of lands smooth with no hills and such but grids and straight lines...

the word chessboard implies so much more than lines on a grid..did the Lotus sutra talk about chessboards..why the use of the word.

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:19 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:59 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:50 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:51 am
what translation did you use that explains that they played chess back when this Lotus Sutra was written .
BDK. Available here: http://www.bdk.or.jp/english/english_tr ... nload.html

Not sure if this is a gloss. Probably is. The description of pure lands being laid out on grids with straight lines is standard.
really?...standard?? ..they usually talk of lands smooth with no hills and such but grids and straight lines...

the word chessboard implies so much more than lines on a grid..did the Lotus sutra talk about chessboards..why the use of the word.
Yeah, there's no mention of chess or a chessboard. The section you are looking at is here:

時娑婆世界即變清淨,琉璃為地,寶樹莊嚴,黃金為繩以界八道,無諸聚落、村營、城邑、大海、江河、山川、林藪。

Particularly this clause: "黃金為繩以界八道", or "gold as a cord to border the eight paths".

IMO its ambiguous if roads are even being mentioned, as 八道 also refers to the Eightfold Path (in addition to its possible reading of 'eight roads') in Chinese EBTs, and the Venerable Kumārajīva is only about 1-2 hundred years off the mark for those.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:11 pm

Consulting readings based on the Watson translation at NichirenLibrary, the passage above then specifies that there are no cities or towns (無諸聚落、村營、城邑) in the purified sahalokadhātu. Obviously this is a very pedestrian observation, that there are no cities or towns specifically specified, so these roads clearly have some other purpose/symbolism.

This would make a good thread on its own.

The notion of these roads being in some way figurative or referential to the eightfold path, is this too fanciful a connection to draw based on the usage of 八道 in earlier literature (the Sarvāstivāda āgamas, etc)?
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Minobu » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:22 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:11 pm
Consulting readings based on the Watson translation at NichirenLibrary, the passage above then specifies that there are no cities or towns (無諸聚落、村營、城邑) in the purified sahalokadhātu. Obviously this is a very pedestrian observation, that there are no cities or towns specifically specified, so these roads clearly have some other purpose/symbolism.

This would make a good thread on its own.

The notion of these roads being in some way figurative or referential to the eightfold path, is this too fanciful a connection to draw based on the usage of 八道 in earlier literature (the Sarvāstivāda āgamas, etc)?
you always see what others don't Coëmgenu , and start a whole other ball rolling.
If there are spiritual understandings , that someone clued into the meaning hidden in the allegories sees,why are they not handed down orally?
I think it is because if you don't see them yourself , you are not ready.


I brought up Kundalini and Malcolm said there is no kundalini in Nichiren's teachings.

and yet the gohonzon can be viewed as being a diagram for ones' three channels .
the two on each side are filled with protective deities and the middle is the source .
Nichiren Daishonin sits at the Bottom where the Great Work is to take place.

seek this inside you. Let The Blessings from focus and chanting with The outer Image activate that which is needed for the Great Work inside you.

funny how i never heard of Kundalini till i started to chant. The fact i cured my father brought people to me that wanted to be intimate with me...i was taught and being with that person activated Her.
Then the great Sansho shima appeared and i was to weak to understand...let It take me away in the guise of a priest's guidance on something he knew nothing about...
ahhh live and learn....
Give thanks...it's Thanksgiving in Canada..

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Queequeg » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:48 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:11 pm
Consulting readings based on the Watson translation at NichirenLibrary, the passage above then specifies that there are no cities or towns (無諸聚落、村營、城邑) in the purified sahalokadhātu. Obviously this is a very pedestrian observation, that there are no cities or towns specifically specified, so these roads clearly have some other purpose/symbolism.

This would make a good thread on its own.

The notion of these roads being in some way figurative or referential to the eightfold path, is this too fanciful a connection to draw based on the usage of 八道 in earlier literature (the Sarvāstivāda āgamas, etc)?
I don't know where my recollection comes from...

my recollection is that the roads are laid out in a grid so that there are 8 squares surrounding the central square occupied by the buddha... in the Sukhavati Visualization sutra the paths are described as cris-crossing like a net. You often see this layout in mandala images, for instance, particularly, in the diamond world mandala. I think the 8 squares may relate to the 8 directions.

I'm not standing by that, though.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by JazzIsTvRicky » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:12 am

All I need to know is within Nichiren’s Teachings and all I need to do is Chant Nam Myoho Renge Kyo in my Practice of Faith in The Gohonzon of Nam Myoho Renge Kyo!

I’ll leave the intellectuals to do what they do! Buddhism is not about knowledge but Faith. This is my concentration and always has been! Try learning what Faith in Nichiren’s Buddhism is and I am sure you will find it when you continue Studying ‘Gongyo as Practiced by Nichiren Buddhism Sects’

As over 12000 others are doing all over the World!

What a wonderful contribution all if you have made.

Thank you for your sincerity and time!

Sincerely
A فوتاري أوف ذي غوهونزون أوف نام ميوهو رينج كيو

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Minobu » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:27 pm

JazzIsTvRicky wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:12 am
All I need to know is within Nichiren’s Teachings and all I need to do is Chant Nam Myoho Renge Kyo in my Practice of Faith in The Gohonzon of Nam Myoho Renge Kyo!

I’ll leave the intellectuals to do what they do! Buddhism is not about knowledge but Faith. This is my concentration and always has been! Try learning what Faith in Nichiren’s Buddhism is and I am sure you will find it when you continue Studying ‘Gongyo as Practiced by Nichiren Buddhism Sects’

As over 12000 others are doing all over the World!

What a wonderful contribution all if you have made.

Thank you for your sincerity and time!

Sincerely
so you don't know why you post the stuff you post.
it really is just copy paste stuff you have no idea about.
and this is the bow out with egg on your face post...

what a nightmare!!!!

by the by if anyone ever never wanted blind faith it is Buddha and the person you call your teacher The Very Venerable Dai Sensei Nichiren Daishonin

and it is all about knowledge....faith is the key to the practice...knowledge is the key to shakubuku . there comes a point where study goes beyond faith...

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:36 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:22 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:11 pm
Consulting readings based on the Watson translation at NichirenLibrary, the passage above then specifies that there are no cities or towns (無諸聚落、村營、城邑) in the purified sahalokadhātu. Obviously this is a very pedestrian observation, that there are no cities or towns specifically specified, so these roads clearly have some other purpose/symbolism.

This would make a good thread on its own.

The notion of these roads being in some way figurative or referential to the eightfold path, is this too fanciful a connection to draw based on the usage of 八道 in earlier literature (the Sarvāstivāda āgamas, etc)?
you always see what others don't Coëmgenu , and start a whole other ball rolling.
If there are spiritual understandings , that someone clued into the meaning hidden in the allegories sees,why are they not handed down orally?
I think it is because if you don't see them yourself , you are not ready.


I brought up Kundalini and Malcolm said there is no kundalini in Nichiren's teachings.
We're having our dinner today due to trying to schedule between different peoples' work schedules. Are you seeing a connection between these paths/roads (and the 'gold as a cord/thread/string/rope') and kuṇḍalinī?
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by DGA » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:45 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:48 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:11 pm
Consulting readings based on the Watson translation at NichirenLibrary, the passage above then specifies that there are no cities or towns (無諸聚落、村營、城邑) in the purified sahalokadhātu. Obviously this is a very pedestrian observation, that there are no cities or towns specifically specified, so these roads clearly have some other purpose/symbolism.

This would make a good thread on its own.

The notion of these roads being in some way figurative or referential to the eightfold path, is this too fanciful a connection to draw based on the usage of 八道 in earlier literature (the Sarvāstivāda āgamas, etc)?
I don't know where my recollection comes from...

my recollection is that the roads are laid out in a grid so that there are 8 squares surrounding the central square occupied by the buddha... in the Sukhavati Visualization sutra the paths are described as cris-crossing like a net. You often see this layout in mandala images, for instance, particularly, in the diamond world mandala. I think the 8 squares may relate to the 8 directions.

I'm not standing by that, though.
with a big FWIW...

I can confirm that some Tendai practitioners I have encountered do regard the Lotus Sutra as an esoteric text, analogous to the canon of texts the Tibetans call tantras. The person who informed me of this is deceased, so I can't follow up on it, and besides, this may not be relevant to the current discussion (i.e, this may be a way of thinking that emerged in Tendai-shu well after Nichiren's time). I bring it up only because we're entertaining speculations and there's some chance it may be interesting to someone.

This is completely irrelevant to the discussion Minobu and Malcolm were having about kundalini, however.

Happy Thanksgiving to our friends north of the 49th parallel.

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by DGA » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:18 am

Also, a couple of related threads I spun off to explore ideas that came up as I read this one.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26717

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=26718

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by JazzIsTvRicky » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:02 am

Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:27 pm
JazzIsTvRicky wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:12 am
All I need to know is within Nichiren’s Teachings and all I need to do is Chant Nam Myoho Renge Kyo in my Practice of Faith in The Gohonzon of Nam Myoho Renge Kyo!

I’ll leave the intellectuals to do what they do! Buddhism is not about knowledge but Faith. This is my concentration and always has been! Try learning what Faith in Nichiren’s Buddhism is and I am sure you will find it when you continue Studying ‘Gongyo as Practiced by Nichiren Buddhism Sects’

As over 12000 others are doing all over the World!

What a wonderful contribution all if you have made.

Thank you for your sincerity and time!

Sincerely
so you don't know why you post the stuff you post.
it really is just copy paste stuff you have no idea about.
and this is the bow out with egg on your face post...

what a nightmare!!!!

by the by if anyone ever never wanted blind faith it is Buddha and the person you call your teacher The Very Venerable Dai Sensei Nichiren Daishonin

and it is all about knowledge....faith is the key to the practice...knowledge is the key to shakubuku . there comes a point where study goes beyond faith...

:shrug: Please show me where Nichiren or any other Buddha says Study gose beyond Faith :shrug:

Nichiren Teaches

“Since you press me for an answer, listen and then have firm faith in what you have heard. The passage is that in the “Life Span” chapter that reads: “I will leave this good medicine here. You should take it and not worry that it will not cure you.”

I am amused by your interpretations my friend :soapbox:
A فوتاري أوف ذي غوهونزون أوف نام ميوهو رينج كيو

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:20 am

JazzIsTvRicky wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:02 am
:shrug: Please show me where Nichiren or any other Buddha says Study gose beyond Faith :shrug:

Nichiren Teaches

“Since you press me for an answer, listen and then have firm faith in what you have heard. The passage is that in the “Life Span” chapter that reads: “I will leave this good medicine here. You should take it and not worry that it will not cure you.”
What about the section of that very same "Life Span" chapter that proclaims Śākyamuni Buddha as True Buddha, not the Venerable Nichiren? What about your insistence that the Lotus Sutra has nothing to do with the teachings of the Venerable Nichiren? Why should a passage in the Lotus Sutra have any bearing on the dharma of the Venerable Nichiren, according to the criteria you have set out, that is to say: "Lotus Sutra=garbage teaching of Śākyamuni Buddha & Daimoku=true teaching of a different Buddha who happens to be Ven Nichiren"?
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by narhwal90 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:15 pm

Not related to the sutra as such, but interestingly Nikko used the honorific "Buddha" for Nichiren in some of the gohonzon he inscribed- but he also used quite a few different terms connoting other forms of respect, as did other followers who inscribed gohonzon. There is a particular calculus that the chief disciples used for naming Nichiren on the gohonzon as they started inscribing their own- involving the transition of his signature as author to his status as an element of design. In any case not all the chief disciples followed the same formula. Apparently, gohonzon design methods underwent considerable change and formalization after Nichiren died. There is a lot of variation in style seen between Nichiren inscribed vs disciple inscribed gohonzon- the prinicipal elements are consistent but many "B and C list" venerables are present or omitted, often depending upon the size of the ghonzon but seemingly sometimes also not. NIchiren's sigil tends to remain present.

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:59 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:15 pm
Nikko used the honorific "Buddha" for Nichiren
Can you elaborate on this?
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by narhwal90 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:09 pm

Will-do once I get home and can cite more exhaustively. As per the mandala workshop sections on the chief disciples, on the gohonzon Nikko inscribed, he used a number of different honorifics for Nichiren, a few being "Buddha". I am citing the translation, I cannot read Japanese- they show the Japanese character along with the corresponding english so I cannot make further distinctions. I would be happy to photograph the citation and post that.

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