The Independent movement thread/all things related

narhwal90
Posts: 509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by narhwal90 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:11 pm

The question of presence on the gohonzon has been on my mind a bit recently, it came up in a brief exchange I had elsewhere,

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/nic ... u/008.html

in this case, Mahavairocana. So I wonder about the more subtle selections Nichiren made when choosing the venerables, to doctrinally position the gohozon & where latitude exists in the design. I can well imagine some care in positioning relative to Pure Land, perhaps similar factors exist(ed) with other schools too.

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1807
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:29 pm

Queequeg wrote:
This is consistent with Nichiren's overall approach to other protective forces such as kami.
interesting segue ...lol...
Dare I ask..ugh....LOL!!!!
what was Dai Sensei Nichiren Shonin approach to Kami ?

You know my bent on this.
In a nutshell, without spending the rest of my afternoon digging up quote after quote.
We have seen Him place various gods Indra ,Brahma on Gohonzon.
there is no question as to their identity as beings...or is there?
then we have Shinto god Hachiman , in fact the whole Gohonzon is made up of Buddhas, Bodhisattvas taken from Sutras, Shinto god, gods,Kami , and lineage Masters. Rakshasas and demons in the mix.

He prayed the whole night to Bodhisattva Kannon who is none other than Bodhisattva Quan Yin or the male form Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara before chanting the first Odaimoku.
His gosho are rife with talks of the gods all in the jargon and view of the day. He never went on a rampage to say these gods do not exist as beings.
The Lotus Sutra list them all as beings attending the ceremony in the air.


i don't want to get into another hostile session with you Q over this .I'll take all the hostility played out as my fault and doing....but the odds are in my favour in viewing these gods and Kami as beings...
yeah i know landscape and planets and stars are viewed as gods in certain instance, which does distract from the "Being " aspect in other readings of them.

and it is only in the modern day that they are posed as being functions. functions of what exactly.

EDIT

you know some would argue that Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are just a writers poetry and metaphor and do not exist in real world reality at all.
so where do we get off deciding that other beings mentioned and called as such are none other than metaphors and functions of the way things are and....i could go on and on ...everyone here knows what we both are saying on the said subject...i get your view...i get all your views ...

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1807
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:41 pm

narhwal90 wrote:The question of presence on the gohonzon has been on my mind a bit recently, it came up in a brief exchange I had elsewhere,

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/nic ... u/008.html

in this case, Mahavairocana. So I wonder about the more subtle selections Nichiren made when choosing the venerables, to doctrinally position the gohozon & where latitude exists in the design. I can well imagine some care in positioning relative to Pure Land, perhaps similar factors exist(ed) with other schools too.
Malcolm said we are all held in the palm of the hand of Mahavairocana , i'm trying to wrap me head round that one HERE

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1807
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:17 pm

wow i'm still looking for a quan Yin depicted on Gohonzon and came up with this from google..
https://books.google.ca/books?id=syitBQ ... 3F&f=false


you can scroll up to the top and read a plethora of stuff on Dai Sensei Nichiren Shonin ..(man it's taking up a lot of time to write His name this way....whats to come...lol)
but at the bottom he mentions..Sanko in regards to Quan Yin.
unfortunately i cannot find the actual words due to not all of the book is shown.

narhwal90
Posts: 509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by narhwal90 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:34 pm

:) what an interesting book, seems to in 3 parts- going to try and track down a copy

Bois de Santal
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:01 am
Location: La Manche

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Bois de Santal » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:41 pm

Their web site is here...
http://thenichirenmandala.yolasite.com/

I bookmarked it a while ago but haven't had time to invesitage further.

In any case, their books don't seem too expensive. No idea of the quality though.
It would be great if someone could report back.

narhwal90
Posts: 509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by narhwal90 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:55 pm

Fascinating... they also have some material on the plank gohonzon. I have wondered if Nichiren did his own carving or painted the letters and had a woodcarver cut them, perhaps I'll find out... :)

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1807
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:27 pm

yay i pulled out a plumb.
Image

so i'm pretty sure somewhere i read where some Gohonzon had a Quan Yin on it..
although these little adventures or misadventures of mine sometimes are born deep within me... some secret place ..lol

"I think it was the Bear's voice he heard deep inside him ,growling low ...dark secret places .


timestamp 2;29

phpBB [video]

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1807
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:13 pm

Bois de Santal wrote:Their web site is here...
http://thenichirenmandala.yolasite.com/

I bookmarked it a while ago but haven't had time to invesitage further.

In any case, their books don't seem too expensive. No idea of the quality though.
It would be great if someone could report back.
when you say quality are you talking authenticity?
for thats me NO.1 fear around all this stuff.

Bois de Santal
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:01 am
Location: La Manche

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Bois de Santal » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:57 pm

I meant quality of the physical publication. I've never bought anything printed by lulu. It is a platform for self-publication so the EUR 26 they are charging for Vol. 1 might be over-priced for the content.

I'm not sure what you mean by authenticity. I'm fairly sure from looking at their web-site that the author(s) are serious and credible. If I had the time and the spare cash I would add the books to my collection, but my spare time and money are currently spoken for, so that will have to wait.

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1807
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:49 pm

Bois de Santal wrote:I meant quality of the physical publication. I've never bought anything printed by lulu. It is a platform for self-publication so the EUR 26 they are charging for Vol. 1 might be over-priced for the content.

I'm not sure what you mean by authenticity. I'm fairly sure from looking at their web-site that the author(s) are serious and credible. If I had the time and the spare cash I would add the books to my collection, but my spare time and money are currently spoken for, so that will have to wait.
yeah well charlatans and a lot of guess work even from Nichiren priests have proven inauthentic .
careful what you read for it all goes in there.
like people say when they break the cake or offer a fallen piece of apple pie....it all goes down the same hole.

in our case this could be disastrous ...leads to stuff like primordial Buddhas and debate on the Samsaric realms one is born into ...are they real or just metaphors..are pure lands the way of the Bodhisattva or some wish for people not happy...so much to weed through these days.

User avatar
The Cicada
Posts: 565
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:15 am
Location: Trumpaloka

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by The Cicada » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:31 am

narhwal90 wrote:ok- got it this time, thanks shijo- confirmed I got all the files. I call this download shijo2 and it looks complete. I have not found any truncated files and all the hi-res mandala files are present- I think this is the complete website. I regenerated the website, new .zip file so as to avoid version problems;

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/nic ... /home.html

and

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/nic ... 1709-2.zip
Thank you for doing this for the independent community and for all those who have left the Soka Gakkai and set out on their own to find Eagle Peak.

:namaste:

User avatar
shijo
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:50 pm

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by shijo » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:41 am

Bois de Santal wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by authenticity.
Minobu wrote:yeah well charlatans and a lot of guess work even from Nichiren priests have proven inauthentic .
careful what you read for it all goes in there.
I agree with Minobu. I read those books, and I am not sure about their validity. They lack of bibliographic references and it is a severe issue. Moreover, it sounds weird to publish them using a platform for self-publication and not by academic press, provided it is an academic research and not a personal research. But since the author in unknown, this is another severe issue.
Bois de Santal wrote:I'm fairly sure from looking at their web-site that the author(s) are serious and credible.
That site claims that:
Nichiren Mandala Study Workshop wrote:All the research by the Nichiren Mandala Study Workshop (日蓮聖人曼荼羅研究所) has been done in Japan, over the course of 10 years.
However, there is no name behind these researches. It is strange that a scholar is anonymous. Other scholars stand up for their conclusions and discoveries.

Personally, I do not rely on those books.

Bois de Santal
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:01 am
Location: La Manche

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Bois de Santal » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:13 pm

You make many valid points.

I was wondering recently about how to go about creating a way of reviewing books, such that others can be encouraged to buy or to avoid.

For example, I followed one of Queequeg's links recently and purchased Haiyan Shen's 'The Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra.' (It is an interesting book, but not what I expected - when I get a moment I will write a bit more.)

The Nichiren Mandala Study Workshop seem on the surface to be credible on one level, from what I have seen from their blog. I skimmed http://nichirenmandala.weebly.com/uploa ... andara.pdf quickly and it seems to have plenty of references and the english apprears to be good (ie, it is not italian or japanese run through google translate, afaict.) However, I haven't studied the ita-gohonzon topic in depth, so I can't say how original their work is. Anyway, they don't sell that document, which brings us back to the question of the authenticity of what they do sell.

And the fact that they don't give their name or names is curious, to say the least. Why publish anonymously?

User avatar
shijo
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:50 pm

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by shijo » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:22 pm

Bois de Santal wrote:it seems to have plenty of references and the english apprears to be good (ie, it is not italian or japanese run through google translate, afaict.)
Sorry, but references for the statements that are written on this document are missing.

I.e.:
honmonkaidanitamandara.pdf wrote:A calligraphic evaluation based on other extant mandalas inscribed during the alleged period however shows limited similarities. [...] A calligraphic evaluation based on other extant mandalas inscribed during the alleged period however shows limited similarities. [...] In recent years Kimbara Akihiko published the result of his own investigation with an impartial stance, but the results were the same as Inaba Kaiso’s initial assessment.
The ANONYMOUS AUTHOR only quotes the conclusions of Kimbara Akihiko, but they are only Kimbara's own investigation, as he claims. This is a unverified source. Again, he quotes Inaba Kaiso's conclusions, but not the title of his book. Who is Inaba Kaiso? We are not able to evaluate directly the validity of both Kimbara's and Inaba's assertions, because we cannot read the original book. No translation in english is available.

Without being able to verify, it is easy to circulate false information, even though they are well disguised.
Bois de Santal wrote:And the fact that they don't give their name or names is curious, to say the least. Why publish anonymously?
Because, if they had published using one of the publishing houses they own, everyone would understand the purpose of the publication. Take a look at the year of publication of the first "The Nichiren Mandala Study Workshop" book. Do you remember what happened at the end of 2014-beginning of 2015?

I suspect that it is a Soka Gakkai's publication.
It is not the first time they do "historical revisionism", in their own way.

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 4329
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Queequeg » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:21 pm

narhwal90 wrote:The question of presence on the gohonzon has been on my mind a bit recently, it came up in a brief exchange I had elsewhere,

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/nic ... u/008.html

in this case, Mahavairocana. So I wonder about the more subtle selections Nichiren made when choosing the venerables, to doctrinally position the gohozon & where latitude exists in the design. I can well imagine some care in positioning relative to Pure Land, perhaps similar factors exist(ed) with other schools too.
It seems the two siddham for Mahavairocana are for the two Mahavairocana who appear in the Womb and Diamond World Mandalas, with the Lotus in the middle.

I would guess that this Gohonzon was given to someone versed in practice of the Two Mandalas.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 4329
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Queequeg » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:39 pm

Minobu wrote: We have seen Him place various gods Indra ,Brahma on Gohonzon.
there is no question as to their identity as beings...or is there?
What is a "being"? Not the definition, the real - the being perceived through Three Inclusive Truths and by Ichinen Sanzen? I don't think its what you think it is. Also not what you accuse me of thinking.
He prayed the whole night to Bodhisattva Kannon who is none other than Bodhisattva Quan Yin or the male form Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara before chanting the first Odaimoku.
Where do you get this from?

Nichiren's tutelary deity was Bodhisattva Akashagarbha / Kokuzo Bosatsu. When he was young, he prayed to Kokuzo Bosatsu to become the wisest person in Japan. Kokuzo is associated with the Morning Star meditation. There is no reference to Nichiren praying to Kannon.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 4329
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Queequeg » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:48 pm

narhwal90 wrote:Fascinating... they also have some material on the plank gohonzon. I have wondered if Nichiren did his own carving or painted the letters and had a woodcarver cut them, perhaps I'll find out... :)
The legend about the plank Gohonzon at Taisekiji is that it was carved by the same guy who carved the two statues of Nichiren which were carved during his lifetime. One is at Taisekiji. The other is at Kitayama Honmonji. The plank Gohonzon is supposedly from the same log as the two statues.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1807
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:18 pm

Queequeg wrote: There is no reference to Nichiren praying to Kannon.
i was mistaken as to when he chanted to her.
Was it not when he was a little boy praying to be the wisest person in japan.
seriously i always thought it was Bodhisattva Kannon , any one else?

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1807
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:38 pm

i sent this to a Nichiren Shu site for help.
i'm not kidding around here "Q"
it's like i have entered into a different parallel universe or something.

I have always thought Nichiren Shonin prayed to Bodhisattva Kannon as a young boy to be the wisest person in Japan.

It seems i am wrong...and yet my memory , which is pretty good is filled with Kannon and not Kokuzo.

Is any one out there in my universe...how does this work?

all of the internet today says it is Kokuzo and not Kannon.

i have tons of memories about it being about Kannon. and zero of Kokuzo , in fact never heard of Kokuzo and i'm 62 and studied this Religion since i am 20..it is my main interest. even when i tried other sects of Buddhism i always compared them to this.



i realize this makes me look insane or something...but man...hopefully this parallel universe is the one where i win the lottery..



It started with me looking for Her on Gohonzon map..



egads...it is so real...is this how dementia starts...or some other madness?





a very much embarrassed

dave

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Minobu, narhwal90, The Cicada, Thomas Amundsen and 26 guests