The Independent movement thread/all things related

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Queequeg » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:39 pm

Queequeg wrote:Nichiren's tutelary deity was Bodhisattva Akashagarbha / Kokuzo Bosatsu. When he was young, he prayed to Kokuzo Bosatsu to become the wisest person in Japan. Kokuzo is associated with the Morning Star meditation. There is no reference to Nichiren praying to Kannon.
I, Nichiren, was a resident of [Seichō-ji on] Mount Kiyosumi in Tōjō Village in the province of Awa. From the time I was a small child, I prayed to Bodhisattva Space Treasury (Kokuzo), asking that I might become the wisest person in all Japan. The bodhisattva transformed himself into a venerable priest beforemy very eyes and bestowed upon me a jewel of wisdom as bright as the morning star.
-Tripitaka Master Shan-wu-wei
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:41 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Queequeg wrote: There is no reference to Nichiren praying to Kannon.
i was mistaken as to when he chanted to her.
Was it not when he was a little boy praying to be the wisest person in japan.
seriously i always thought it was Bodhisattva Kannon , any one else?
Queequeg wrote:Nichiren's tutelary deity was Bodhisattva Akashagarbha / Kokuzo Bosatsu. When he was young, he prayed to Kokuzo Bosatsu to become the wisest person in Japan. Kokuzo is associated with the Morning Star meditation. There is no reference to Nichiren praying to Kannon.
I, Nichiren, was a resident of [Seichō-ji on] Mount Kiyosumi in Tōjō Village in the province of Awa. From the time I was a small child, I prayed to Bodhisattva Space Treasury (Kokuzo), asking that I might become the wisest person in all Japan. The bodhisattva transformed himself into a venerable priest beforemy very eyes and bestowed upon me a jewel of wisdom as bright as the morning star.
[/quote]
-Tripitaka Master Shan-wu-wei[/quote]

check out me previous post "Q" reposted here just now.
this is all too weird for me...
as you know i wear my heart on my sleeve and tell things as i see them..
toodles people, i'm checking out...
Last edited by Minobu on Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:42 pm

here "Q"
for real man.


Minobu wrote:i sent this to a Nichiren Shu site for help.
i'm not kidding around here "Q"
it's like i have entered into a different parallel universe or something.

I have always thought Nichiren Shonin prayed to Bodhisattva Kannon as a young boy to be the wisest person in Japan.

It seems i am wrong...and yet my memory , which is pretty good is filled with Kannon and not Kokuzo.

Is any one out there in my universe...how does this work?

all of the internet today says it is Kokuzo and not Kannon.

i have tons of memories about it being about Kannon. and zero of Kokuzo , in fact never heard of Kokuzo and i'm 62 and studied this Religion since i am 20..it is my main interest. even when i tried other sects of Buddhism i always compared them to this.



i realize this makes me look insane or something...but man...hopefully this parallel universe is the one where i win the lottery..



It started with me looking for Her on Gohonzon map..



egads...it is so real...is this how dementia starts...or some other madness?





a very much embarrassed

dave

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Queequeg » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:44 pm

Its not something to beat yourself up over. Probably easy to get that mixed up. No one knows who Kokuzo Bosatsu is. They both start with "k".
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:52 pm

Queequeg wrote:Its not something to beat yourself up over. Probably easy to get that mixed up. No one knows who Kokuzo Bosatsu is. They both start with "k".
ok hijacking the thread totally but sorry..
this is not some mistake "Q" or a mix up..
i have this sort of memory..

when i was 24 at a party in Toronto i go up to this chick and say i think i know you. she was hostile and said no you don't...i wondered why this person even goes to parties...i told her again this is not a pick up line but i'm sure i met you before are you from Montreal..she said yes..

then i recalled her working at the A&W on st. Catherine's...she said no...came up to me later and said wow ...i worked there about 14 years ago for one weekend only...i said yeah you served me a Teen Burger....she looked frightened...

so you see i know it's not just a mix up...

i mean i have tons of conversations about this Kannon thing in my head and no one ever corrected ...and i recall the reading of Nichiren saying He prayed to Kannon...ok so i got it mixed up a tas about when He did...but that got fixed immediately...and you know me i would know if i ever even heard of this Kokuzo Bodhisattva ...heck it sounds like the yakuza gang and that in and of itself would tell me i would recall Kokuzo..

it's weird "Q" maybe when we is all sitting around enlightened we'll recall this lil bit of parallel universe weirdness...what ever...

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:54 pm

Queequeg wrote:Its not something to beat yourself up over. Probably easy to get that mixed up. No one knows who Kokuzo Bosatsu is. They both start with "k".
one sec here....."No one knows who Kokuzo Bosatsu is !!!!

dude!!!!!
what does that even mean????
am i dreaming?

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Queequeg » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:57 pm

What I mean is, unless you are a Buddhism nerd or actively engaged in his practice, there is probably no occasion when Kokuzo would come up.

Who has heard of Kokuzo? Raise your hands.
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Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:16 pm

Queequeg wrote:What I mean is, unless you are a Buddhism nerd or actively engaged in his practice, there is probably no occasion when Kokuzo would come up.

Who has heard of Kokuzo? Raise your hands.
yeah well in the context of "ME"
i would have for it's always been an interest to me that Dai Sensei Nichiren Shonin chanted to Her as a little boy...Her being Kannon.

Kokuzo automatically pops out yakuza in me...it's the way i roll...and i would have always identified with that instance/ never have ...never heard of Kokuzo ...first time today...even though i recall reading Kannon in all the related stories about His childhood thing.

oh well...too weird...of course if it is a parallel universe the entire universe never heard of Kannon being the one He prayed to..except me...and we all know what that means...yuppers.... Dave is off his crumpet...mad as a March hare....Barking !!!


carry on...end of hijack...

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by illarraza » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:18 am

Regarding us independents, please don't fight :group: Much of the reason for "the problem within the Nichiren community" is SGI’s bizarre “prime point” of the Lotus Sutra [the oneness of mentor and disciple]. Some of us grow up to be adults. We refuse to be treated as children and actually read and study the Lotus Sutra and Gosho. Some of us actually believe that those who chant Namu Myoho renge kyo with strong faith in the Gohonzon, Lotus Sutra, and Shakyamuni Buddha are emanations of Shakyamuni Buddha and are Three Bodied Tathagatas in their own right. I believe that the Soka Gakkai will continue to hemorrhage unhappy members. Fortunately, we are willing to galvanize these broken human beings and repair their injured faith and practice. Regardless of your peccadilloes, or my peccadilloes, we are Great Bodhisattvas and followers of Nichiren

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by DGA » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:43 am

illarraza wrote:Some of us actually believe that those who chant Namu Myoho renge kyo with strong faith in the Gohonzon, Lotus Sutra, and Shakyamuni Buddha are emanations of Shakyamuni Buddha and are Three Bodied Tathagatas in their own right.
Would you mind elaborating on this point, please? I don't think I understand your meaning correctly. Are you claiming that anyone who practices Daimoku correctly has attained all three kayas?

This is an interesting topic that may be worth its own thread. Here are some related threads and posts in the recent and not so near past:

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=17426

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f ... 60#p408294 (and subsequent posts)

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by narhwal90 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:40 pm

Bois de Santal wrote:Their web site is here...
http://thenichirenmandala.yolasite.com/

I bookmarked it a while ago but haven't had time to invesitage further.

In any case, their books don't seem too expensive. No idea of the quality though.
It would be great if someone could report back.

Done :) My copies of the black & white edition arrived today. The books are printed on letter size paper, binding is reasonable generally what one would see on a paperback book. None of the pages came loose in my 1st pass thru, so far so good. The photos (many) in b&w are legible though the images of very faint items are hard to read- needing good light and a magnifier. Paper quality is good, printing is clear.

I glanced thru the part 3 book which takes up the various types of gohonzon, including those made by the various lineages, cataloging and contrasting many of the variations. Disagreements between various schools old and new are discussed- I note that while many of the schools large and small, extant or not are named but the SGI is not. I suspect he will have a section on SGI gohonzon but my 1st scan thru the 1st and 3rd books didn't turn up discussions about modern editions.

The author continues to avoid stating his identity but does name names for those he met and collaborated with, particularly several from an operation named "Rissho Ankokukai", and other sources he (they) worked from including temples from various schools, there are extensive footnotes relating sources and references. He notes topics of substantial discord (N.Shoshu Dai-gohonzon, transmission documents) and does not enter into the debate. I had thought that Rissho Ankokukai was associated with Rissho University but apparently that is not the case; google finds an interesting and obscure citation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanaka_Chigaku

and several related books.

From a research perspective there are exhaustive breakdowns of types of gohonzon, their features cataloged by age and lineage. Part 1 has an extensive section on how Nichiren produced gohonzon- methods, materials, how they changed etc- very interesting.

There is plainly a lot of material, the last chapter in the part 3 book is reserved for an opinion piece of buddhism/nichiren as part of the universe and how things work, which does not appear prominent elsewhere. I read a bit of that trying to get a sense of which school he's coming from, but he is cagey and works on selling Nichiren as a general proposition supported by the usual kinds of references about interconnectedness and quantum things. I have the impression that chapter is oriented towards introducing Nichiren in a complex way from a pan-school perspective.

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by shijo » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:21 pm

narhwal90 wrote:Paper quality is good, printing is clear.
Thanks for the review, though it seems more like an advertisement. I am still unable to find the sources and references you speak about, and I read those books, too.
narhwal90 wrote:Disagreements between various schools old and new are discussed- I note that while many of the schools large and small, extant or not are named but the SGI is not. I suspect he will have a section on SGI gohonzon but my 1st scan thru the 1st and 3rd books didn't turn up discussions about modern editions.
If we had the assurance that those books are a real study carried out by a real scholar, the reason would be quite simple. SGI is not a school and it have no tradition. So, there are no Gohonzon belonging to its tradition. Moreover, the current SGI Gohonzon (Nichikan Shonin's one) is incomplete and lacking in many Chinese characters, compared to what (previously) was considered the object of worship of that organization (the Dai-Gohonzon).
narhwal90 wrote:From a research perspective there are exhaustive breakdowns of types of gohonzon,
From a research perspective, without being able to verify, it is easy to circulate false information, even though they are well disguised.
narhwal90 wrote:I have the impression that chapter is oriented towards introducing Nichiren in a complex way from a pan-school perspective.
Again, I would like to point out that the year of publication of the first "The Nichiren Mandala Study Workshop" book is 2015. The same year when Soka Gakkai changed is mind about Dai-Gohonzon. This chapter about pan-school perspective and the strange lack of references on SGI is a very good clue about the author of those books.

Again, I suspect that it is a Soka Gakkai's publication.
It is not the first time they do "historical revisionism", in their own way.

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by narhwal90 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:58 pm

Not trying to advertise the books- just giving my impression. On the copies I have there are many footnotes on the bottoms of pages, references to other papers & other publications etc, and indexes of them at the backs. None of which take away from the point that the author does not identify himself- I agree it detracts from credibility. For my part the lack of attribution and the Nichiren sales pitch chapter moves my view of these books from "reference" to "guarded acceptance". The sales pitch makes me think SGI too.. which would be ok with me if the author made such antecedents and affiliation clear.

One possibility for lack of references to modern gohonzon is that the focus of the books is earlier- the 1st couple generations of disciples. The topic of counterfeit gohonzon and related artifacts is taken up, but none of the subjects of the discussion are modern.

Do you have examples of false/misleading/omitted information in these books?

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Queequeg » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:21 pm

Back on Mark Porter's ichinensanzen.net, the author/study group made a few posts announcing the publication - this had to be some 5 years ago, or so. They did not follow up, but at that point the discussion forum was pretty quiet.

Back then, I looked at their website briefly and considered ordering the book simply out of curiosity but never followed through. Maybe I will do that now.

My impression was that the author/s were "independents" and probably former SGI. I can't point to anything in particular because it was a long time ago. I certainly do not hold anything against a person because they were once SGI members, or even if they are currently are members. I thought the work was a labor of love and sincerity. It was not of a quality I would consider scholarly, but I don't think that is a reason to automatically dismiss the work.

IIRC, Rissho Anokoku-kai is a Nichiren inspired study group. They published the Gohonzon-shu. They are associated with right wing nationalism in Japan.

Soka Gakkai would not be associating with Rissho Ankoku-kai, and vice versa.

Anyway, those are my random recollections. I have no opinion on its substance. I think its cool that people feel inspired enough to self-publish their work. Takes guts to put yourself out there.
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by shijo » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:35 am

narhwal90 wrote:For my part the lack of attribution and the Nichiren sales pitch chapter moves my view of these books from "reference" to "guarded acceptance".
I do not think that we can accept any information contained in those books if we do not know the source, we cannot verify by ourselves and so we cannot know whether it is true or not. While this is true in general, it is even more in the case of Buddhist teachings.
Queequeg wrote:Back on Mark Porter's ichinensanzen.net, the author/study group made a few posts announcing the publication - this had to be some 5 years ago, or so.
The decision of Dai-Gohonzon's repudiation was taken many years before the official announcement. So, their announcement could be still related to Soka Gakkai's decision.

Moreover, five years ago or so, Soka Gakkai began to build Kosen-rufu Daiseido in Japan. This is the place where Soka Gakkai's members join the "Tozan" to the "new Soka (Dai-)Gohonzon". So, in order to bear this new doctrine ("new Soka (Dai-)Gohonzon"), Soka Gakkai needs to build a new documentary proof. As a confirmation of this, the only freely available chapter is the one on the Ita-Mandara (Dai-Gohonzon). This chapter has no verifiable references, as I already wrote about in details on this thread.

Finally, Nichiren's Coffeehouse was closed without any public reason. So, those books are the only Gohonzon gallery available, now.
Queequeg wrote:I thought the work was a labor of love and sincerity. It was not of a quality I would consider scholarly, but I don't think that is a reason to automatically dismiss the work. [..] I think its cool that people feel inspired enough to self-publish their work.
Let's put to one side the Ita-mandara subject for a moment, and speech more in general about Gohonzon. "The Nichiren Mandala Study Workshop" books spread the idea that, since all Gohonzon were inscribed by Nichiren Daishonin or they were faithfully reproduced by Nichiren Daishonin's ones, then all Gohonzon are the same. But this is not true at all. It is like saying that, since all the sutras were preached by Shakyamuni Buddha, all Sutras are the same.
Queequeg wrote:Takes guts to put yourself out there.
I agree, it could be a good point.
But, if someone is anonymous, what risk does he/she run?

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by narhwal90 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:49 pm

The study workshop books do not contend all gohonzon are the same as far as I've read- it does not take a position on relative efficacy (admittedly I haven't read them thoroughly yet). Its an inventory of the 1st few generations of gohonzon, those done by Nichiren & his chief disciples as well as early examples from the various schools that developed. It goes into quite a bit of detail cataloging the variations and idiosyncracies of various gohonzon of which there are many- Nichiren made many changes to the design over time and his chief disciples elaborated as well. The books indicate where known gohonzon were unavailable for study- the author clearly did a lot of work going thru the records of many temples to compile the material.

I have some reservations too, but for my part the books help abate my own ignorance which is very helpful.

Shijo, if you could cite some problematic areas of the books I would be most grateful- I have only my own judgements to rely on while reading them.

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Queequeg » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:17 pm

shijo wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:35 am
Queequeg wrote:Back on Mark Porter's ichinensanzen.net, the author/study group made a few posts announcing the publication - this had to be some 5 years ago, or so.
The decision of Dai-Gohonzon's repudiation was taken many years before the official announcement. So, their announcement could be still related to Soka Gakkai's decision.

Moreover, five years ago or so, Soka Gakkai began to build Kosen-rufu Daiseido in Japan. This is the place where Soka Gakkai's members join the "Tozan" to the "new Soka (Dai-)Gohonzon". So, in order to bear this new doctrine ("new Soka (Dai-)Gohonzon"), Soka Gakkai needs to build a new documentary proof. As a confirmation of this, the only freely available chapter is the one on the Ita-Mandara (Dai-Gohonzon). This chapter has no verifiable references, as I already wrote about in details on this thread.

Finally, Nichiren's Coffeehouse was closed without any public reason. So, those books are the only Gohonzon gallery available, now.
To be clear, I am not vouching for this work in any way, but I am going to push back here on the conspiracy assumptions.

You're citing circumstantial evidence that is rather far fetched to make the argument that this is the work of some nefarious Soka Gakkai psy-ops group.

In all my years of observing Soka Gakkai, I have never seen something like this. If Soka Gakkai was going to try and rewrite the history of Gohonzon, this is not how they would go about it. They'd be much more blatant and direct. It would be done through their own publications, and quite possibly attributed to Ikeda or some other well known leader, or through their study department. It would have first been written in Japanese and then translated into English. What people outside Japan don't realize is that Soka Gakkai International - meaning the overseas organizations, are blips on the screen in Japan. Soka Gakkai shakes Soka Gakkai International, not the other way around.

The fact that the only chapter freely available is on the ita-mandara sounds like a clever marketing angle. For the vast majority of English speakers who would be interested in a study of Gohonzon, the ita-mandara is probably the most interesting point. It doesn't say much more than that.

The most likely reason the coffeehouse went down was because it was hosted on geocities. Geocities was officially shut-down in 2009, though many sites were still available until recently - ie. nichirenscoffeehouse.net. The domain is still owned by Don Ross.

You can read about geocities here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahoo!_GeoCities
Queequeg wrote:Takes guts to put yourself out there.
I agree, it could be a good point.
But, if someone is anonymous, what risk does he/she run?
Good point.

The best step we could take at this point is to contact the Study Group and ask them who they are.
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Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:55 pm

shijo wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:35 am


Moreover, five years ago or so, Soka Gakkai began to build Kosen-rufu Daiseido in Japan. This is the place where Soka Gakkai's members join the "Tozan" to the "new Soka (Dai-)Gohonzon". So, in order to bear this new doctrine ("new Soka (Dai-)Gohonzon"), Soka Gakkai needs to build a new documentary proof. As a confirmation of this, the only freely available chapter is the one on the Ita-Mandara (Dai-Gohonzon). This chapter has no verifiable references, as I already wrote about in details on this thread.
this is the first i heard about this.
I have not stepped into a Gakki anything in about 25 years.
i do not really know what is going on there....but have this idea it would still be a good place to bring new members.
but if what you say is what i think it is...this is just another nail in that coffin to not bring new members to them and place them in their care.

what exactly is the new Soka Dai Gohonzon.. did they make a large version of the one they hand out now and say it has special powers like the ShoShu one?

as per the gakki gohonzon...it was changed from the original i believe..can someone remind me of these changes and why.

I hope and pray Nichiren Shu is a good option for new members.. I want to enshrine a Gohonzon and make it my focal point and personal; High Sanctuary in my life.
I want the Shutei Gohonzon for it is done in our Masters Hand. i heard this is the gohonzon he kept beside his bedside..i think he did not give it out for there is a stray mistake stroke.

anyway...any input on the questions in this post would be appreciated.

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Queequeg » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:59 pm

Having just looked through the website, I am convinced this is not Soka Gakkai. I am pretty sure that the authors are not native English speakers, but rather Japanese. Their blog discusses Sokagakkai in detail, and they clearly have deep knowledge about it. They are also openly critical of some aspects, though neutral in the big picture.

I will reach out to them to find out more about them.
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"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Queequeg » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:01 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:55 pm
what exactly is the new Soka Dai Gohonzon.. did they make a large version of the one they hand out now and say it has special powers like the ShoShu one?
It is an original Nichiren inscribed Gohonzon.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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