The Independent movement thread/all things related

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Minobu
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The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:37 pm

narhwal90 wrote:there are lot of dead links so I think a focused redesign would make a lot of sense. But I think it would be important to keep the Independents' voice prominent in any redesign- if any of those are out there reading this thread I would very much welcome any corrections and additions.
I was heading over to the nail in coffin thread , now i think a new thread/section is to be made.
I think as many people as possible doing similar work as you and Shijo will prove to be very effective in getting the word out.

google works for us not against us.

It does my heart good to read killowatt not trashing their practice but continuing on..People like killowatt need to understand i'm not a scholar...and this is a group effort...we need to put the egos down leave them at some other site and try to help each other through.
I'm stuck as of late on as Q puts it "wording."..lol...but he doesn't out right call me down in front of people....thats vital...

we need as much online space as possable to link together and bring people to the knowledge...an alternative..
ALSO
and yet i still see the Gakki as an avenue for certain people to start...they have a system in place that allows for a person to chant the daimoku . learn stuff....and implant it in their DNA and Memory DNA and their mindstream for eternity...

We can't cut ourselves off that venue.




Now i put up this song and said it was our story in another thread and begged people to listen to it.
I relate to it as a Nichiren Shonin refugee from organizations....it's a similar life i led ,almost a template of this song and it's deeper meaning.
Here are the words and a brief explanation of them from Songfacts

This enigmatic song was written by (White Zulu) Johnny Clegg. It contains a double entendre in the sense that the entire human species is believed to have originated in Africa, from whence the different races of man evolved and spread to the Four Corners of the Earth. It is also a commentary on the poverty experienced by most blacks under Apartheid.

Phelamanga, the road to which we are all (hopefully) on, is a mythical place. Until the coming of the White Man there was no written Zulu language, but it may be translated loosely as the place where the lies end.


think about that!




Copper sun sinking low
Scatterlings and fugitives
Hooded eyes and weary brows
Seek refuge in the night
They are the scatterlings of Africa
Each uprooted one
On the road to Phelamanga
Where the world began
I love the scatterlings of Africa
Each and every one
In their hearts a burning hunger
Beneath the copper sun
Ancient bones from Olduvai
Echoes of the very first cry
"Who made me here and why
Beneath the copper sun?"
African idea
African idea
Make the future clear
Make the future clear
And we are the scatterlings of Africa
Both you and I
We are on the road to Phelamanga
Beneath a copper sky
And we are the scatterlings of Africa
On a journey to the stars
Far below, we leave forever
Dreams of what we were


phpBB [video]


We are on the road to Phelamanga
Beneath a copper sky



so i ask for your ideas and hand in this quest started by Dan Ross and other heroes of the Scripture of the Lotus Blossom of the Fine Dharma

narhwal90
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by narhwal90 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:12 pm

Link to the latest rev of the old Nichiren's Coffeehouse pages;

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/nic ... house.net/

kilowatt
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by kilowatt » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:58 pm

All good, Minobu. I'm no scholar either but I've been doing my best to understand the history of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's life. Anesaki's book on Nichiren has been an interesting source for me, though I need to pick it up again soon.

I'm a lady, btw.

I think the reason I don't quit my practice is because it helps me think things through and gives me the wisdom to see more clearly. Maybe my practice is habit too. I think my SGI days have made me consistent in gongyo and chanting an hour of daimoku a day. Although I quit because of differences of opinion on how the practice should be done and several other reasons, I am grateful that it lead me to this practice and how it piqued my curiosity about this Buddhism.

I'm also grateful that this forum exists as a means to talk about this Buddhism more seriously and in detail. It was something I felt was missing when I was part of SGI.

I'm hoping to see the independent movement and also Nichiren Shu (I've been going to an online sangha that I enjoy) to grow. However, I wish there was a way I can do a meetup of independents in the Chicago area. Currently, the SGI and NST are the dominant forces of this Buddhism where I am.

On an unrelated note, what's everyone's favorite translations of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's works? I'm trying to find a different source than SGI's and I want to compare the differences.

Cheers!

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Minobu
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:49 pm

kilowatt wrote:All good, Minobu. I'm no scholar either but I've been doing my best to understand the history of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's life. Anesaki's book on Nichiren has been an interesting source for me, though I need to pick it up again soon.

I'm a lady, btw.

I think the reason I don't quit my practice is because it helps me think things through and gives me the wisdom to see more clearly. Maybe my practice is habit too. I think my SGI days have made me consistent in gongyo and chanting an hour of daimoku a day. Although I quit because of differences of opinion on how the practice should be done and several other reasons, I am grateful that it lead me to this practice and how it piqued my curiosity about this Buddhism.

I'm also grateful that this forum exists as a means to talk about this Buddhism more seriously and in detail. It was something I felt was missing when I was part of SGI.

I'm hoping to see the independent movement and also Nichiren Shu (I've been going to an online sangha that I enjoy) to grow. However, I wish there was a way I can do a meetup of independents in the Chicago area. Currently, the SGI and NST are the dominant forces of this Buddhism where I am.

On an unrelated note, what's everyone's favorite translations of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's works? I'm trying to find a different source than SGI's and I want to compare the differences.

Cheers!
leon hurvitz is a must...
https://www.amazon.ca/Scripture-Lotus-B ... 023114895X

there are no agendas one might read into the burton watson version paid by ikeda

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Queequeg
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Queequeg » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:16 pm

kilowatt wrote: I'm a lady, btw.
Welcome, Kilowatt. :smile:
On an unrelated note, what's everyone's favorite translations of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's works? I'm trying to find a different source than SGI's and I want to compare the differences.
I like Hurvitz, too. Though, they all have their strengths and weaknesses.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

narhwal90
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:21 pm

I just produced a final-draft update to the coffeehouse pages, I figured I'd mention it here since the title of this thread is more appropriate.

I am working from two copies of the coffeehouse pages, the "shijo" copy and the "wayback" copy as referenced in the "nail in the coffin" page where I started discussing the work

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f ... 20#p406076

Its not clear which is newer but both have some files missing. A few hi-res images are still missing unfortunately;

Mandala008.zip
Mandala030.zip
Mandala060.zip

OTOH the thumbnails all seem to be present. The site is now composed of the union of both copies, with the shijo copy taking precedence when a file exists in both.

Much of the content of greatest interest (GohonzonShu, Ryuei, Dharmajim, IRG) were produced well before circa 2008 which seems the latest mods to the pages, those seem in good shape. I have not dug into his other subjects deeply, could be there are issues there. If anyone browsing, downloading those pages runs into broken links etc, please let me know.

I've left the yahoo groups links intact- I'm sure most of that kind of thing is also broken these days but they are not obtrusive and don't inject javascript etc so are fairly harmless. All the javascript is removed, including google, amazon, webring, sitecounters, tracking, content rating etc.. so the pages are plain vanilla now (unless I've missed something obscure). The campross and lotussutra.net links are still there but all the internal navigation links are now relative file references so the pages can be navigated online in any webspace, or locally by downloading them (I suggest using the .zip file mentioned below for this purpose)

Short of discovering more fully complete editions of the pages etc I think this is about as far as I can take the site short of a major redesign. To wrap it up I will create a downloadable .zip containing the entire site and add the appropriate link to the coffeehouse index page. At least that will make archival copies of the site more reliable in the long term. I will follow-up here when thats ready.

Since I've come into the on-line Nichiren game pretty late, what happened to Mr Ross and the Indepdendents? I've searched around without much result all I've found is that things pretty much stop in the 2008/9 timeframe and the silence deafens.

Thanks all :)

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Minobu
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:02 pm

Did you get Rev Ryui's map and explanation of the Gohonzon..that was impeccable?

narhwal90
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:45 pm

Please check it and see if it looks like it should. I have spotchecked ryuei's pages but not gone deep in.

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by narhwal90 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:43 am

Minobu in for the save :twothumbsup: got Mandala060.zip from him (reversed Aizen/Fudo gohonzon). That leaves Mandala008.zip (ichinen-sanzen gohonzon) and Mandala030.zip from the old site to restore all the coffeehouse his-res gohonzon images...

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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by JazzIsTvRicky » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:53 am

narhwal90 wrote:Minobu in for the save :twothumbsup: got Mandala060.zip from him (reversed Aizen/Fudo gohonzon). That leaves Mandala008.zip (ichinen-sanzen gohonzon) and Mandala030.zip from the old site to restore all the coffeehouse his-res gohonzon images...
Than you for your deep consideration and wonderful ability my friend!
A فوتاري أوف ذي غوهونزون أوف نام ميوهو رينج كيو

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Minobu
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:54 pm

narhwal90 wrote:Please check it and see if it looks like it should. I have spotchecked ryuei's pages but not gone deep in.
sent you zip file 008 Ichinen sanzen gohonzon..interesting gohonzon to chant with...did a 15 minute thing for months with this gohonzon...So much has been happening as of late ...more than ever...do not know which gohonzon did what...even though all are cool at doing STUFF... ....but all is good in davey land.

Also the Gohonzon map of rev ryui's is awesome...i don;t know how you did it ...but "But by George you did it"

actually the opening words by Colonel Pickering pretty much sums up my exact feeling...well maybe a lil more dramatic than minobu...lol...more dramatic than minobu....i don't think so.. first 45 seconds...lol...
phpBB [video]

narhwal90
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by narhwal90 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:18 pm

Oops, there it is- sorry I missed it Minobu was looking for a different variation of the filename cool- thanks! That leaves only Mandala030.zip that we're missing- .thumbnail is OK for that one just missing the hi-res file.

Thanks for the props.. very kind of you, this seems like something I can contribute and I like being part of the wider Nichiren community.

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shijo
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by shijo » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:17 am

narhwal90 wrote:Since I've come into the on-line Nichiren game pretty late, what happened to Mr Ross and the Indepdendents? I've searched around without much result all I've found is that things pretty much stop in the 2008/9 timeframe and the silence deafens.
Unfortunately, Mr. Ross passed away in the evening of October 4, 2010. Friends gather to celebrate Don's life on November 6, 2010 at his ranch he loved. Here is the site with his commemoration:

http://www.memorialsolutions.com/sitema ... 258447Ross#

The independent movement is existing all over the world, not just in the States. In 2006, prof. Mark MacWilliams studied the independent movement, and he wrote "Techno-Ritualization : the Gohozon Controversy on the Internet".

This is the abstract:
In Techno-Ritualization – The Gohozon Controversy on the Internet, Mark MacWilliams describes the case of the “Gohonzon”, Nichiren’s sacred mandala consisting of the title of the Lotus Sutra that is used for worship in the various Nichiren Buddhist sects. Whereas this mandala is generally considered as extremely sacred and it is demanded that it should be housed in the home altar and only displayed privately for devotional chanting, it can nowadays be found on the Internet as a “prayer Gohonzon” from the American Independent Movement, a Buddhist group unaffiliated with the official authority Sôka Gakkai International (SGI). The Internet site offers a virtual altar with a fully displayed Gohonzon, twinkling lighted candles before it, and the chant, “Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,” flashing syllable by syllable on the screen. MacWilliam underlines the power of the Internet to transform religious practice with the example of the virtual prayer and to challenge real life ecclesiastical organizations: the way the Internet is being used is transforming the way people “do” religion.
The MacWilliams's work can be found here:
http://heiup.uni-heidelberg.de/journals ... e/view/371

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Queequeg
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Queequeg » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:04 pm

Mod note - cleaned and unlocked.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

narhwal90
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:41 pm

Hi all,

I made a few more cleanups- removing various advertising and tracking items that snuck thru previous iterations and cleaning up some internal broken links & empty files- there are no content updates. Minobu identified some issues in the Shutei page which points out & discusses the various elements of the gohonzon;

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/nic ... index.html

some of the files referenced in the links have the truncation issue. Unfortunately the shijo copy is missing files too, so pages appearing truncated is a consequence of the shijo version missing the file and the wayback version having a damaged copy of it. The lineage page referenced by the 31-34,36 links is an example, there are others scattered around.

To fix the truncated files we need another copy of the site with those files intact- I think its likely someone somewhere has copy saved off somewhere but that may take some time to come to light, files saved when Mr Ross was developing the site would be preferred. In the meantime this is what we have. We are also still looking for the Mandala030.zip hi-res Gohonzon-Shu image but I believe that is all we're missing outright. I would not be surprised if the original coffeehouse site had these issues for a while. Pending discovery of such material, or updates/fixes people send me, this is the final revision of the coffeehouse pages.

Besides the website linked previous, I created a .zip file containing the entire site available here;

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/nic ... 201709.zip

If extracted to a PC/device, a browser can browse the pages via File/Open and choose home.html, index.html or whatever. Bookmarks work, internal links, the gohonzon images, pdf files etc are all there so internet access is not needed to use the pages.

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shijo
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by shijo » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:06 am

narhwal90 wrote:some of the files referenced in the links have the truncation issue. Unfortunately the shijo copy is missing files too, so pages appearing truncated is a consequence of the shijo version missing the file and the wayback version having a damaged copy of it. The lineage page referenced by the 31-34,36 links is an example, there are others scattered around.
I have just visited the other site, but I cannot find any truncation issue.

For example, I can read all the lineage page referenced by the 31-34,36 links:
http://nichihxmkcg46all.onion.link/nich ... neage.html

narhwal90
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by narhwal90 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:44 am

I see it too- I think my wget failed on some files and then the server disappeared.. retrying now. Will advise.. .thx!

narhwal90
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by narhwal90 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:33 am

ok- got it this time, thanks shijo- confirmed I got all the files. I call this download shijo2 and it looks complete. I have not found any truncated files and all the hi-res mandala files are present- I think this is the complete website. I regenerated the website, new .zip file so as to avoid version problems;

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/nic ... /home.html

and

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/nic ... 1709-2.zip

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Minobu
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Minobu » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:50 am

shijo wrote:
narhwal90 wrote:some of the files referenced in the links have the truncation issue. Unfortunately the shijo copy is missing files too, so pages appearing truncated is a consequence of the shijo version missing the file and the wayback version having a damaged copy of it. The lineage page referenced by the 31-34,36 links is an example, there are others scattered around.
I have just visited the other site, but I cannot find any truncation issue.

For example, I can read all the lineage page referenced by the 31-34,36 links:
http://nichihxmkcg46all.onion.link/nich ... neage.html
yeah i can see all the Bodhisatvas now ...the last two were missing..

btw us...this was a phantom search for Q uan yin whom i thought was on Gohonzon.
Is she on any Gohonzon?

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Queequeg
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Re: The Independent movement thread/all things related

Post by Queequeg » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:55 pm

I don't think so.

The Shakyamuni of the provisional Mahayana is signified by Manjusri and Samantabhadra. Avalokitesvara is an attendant of Amitabha. My sense is Nichiren wanted to avoid any confusion about the significance of the Gohonzon with Avalokitesvara who had a significant cult in his own right and was associated with Pure Land. This is despite the Avalokitesvara chapter in the LS. Nichiren does make reference to the chapter without mentioning Avalokitesvara. He frames the help that Avalokitesvara imparts as flowing from devotion to the Lotus rather than devotion to Avalokitesvara which the Avalokitesvara cult practice suggests.

This is consistent with Nichiren's overall approach to other protective forces such as kami.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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