Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:14 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:57 pm
Might be relevant:

https://tricycle.org/magazine/greater-awakening/
Quite brilliant article! Although it certainly has it's 'angle' in how it frames the Tibetan monk and his tradition, I must say. :stirthepot:
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Malcolm
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:45 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:35 pm
I guess it all comes down to the belief that the LS is the definitive teaching of the Buddhas, who are all, in this framework, conceived of as identical to Śākyamuni Buddha.

Because of this differing perspective of Lotus Buddhism, all Buddhas (I still can't bring myself to type 'sarvabuddhāḥ' for some reason, I suppose there is a limit to even my own pretentiousness), and all Buddha-nature, are not only referred to as, but are also conceived of as, identical completely to Śākyamuni Buddha & Śākyamuni Buddha's respectively, who, in this context, is not a (normal Mahāyāna) nirmāṇakāya because of the constraints and limitations applied to such nirmāṇakāyāḥ. The LS differently presents the nirmāṇakāya. If one approaches Śākyamuni Buddha under the presumptions normative for a nirmāṇakāya in non-LS Buddhism, than one basically gets a huge Buddhist heresy.

Thoughts? Is this off the mark completely?
There is only one Teacher. This the normative Mahāyāna view. There is only one yāna, this is also the normative Mahāyāna view.

Śākyamuni Buddha is a normal supreme nirmanakāya, fourth in a sequence of 1001.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by pael » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:45 pm

There is only one Teacher.
Could you explain this, please?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:52 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:14 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:57 pm
Might be relevant:

https://tricycle.org/magazine/greater-awakening/
Quite brilliant article! Although it certainly has it's 'angle' in how it frames the Tibetan monk and his tradition, I must say. :stirthepot:
Thubten's lack of familiarity with the Lotus Sūtra is normal. However the assumptions of the one yāna teaching presented in the Lotus Sūtra is very much present in Tibetan Buddhism, explicitly based on that sūtra.

The reason why such a monk might be surprised by such a teaching has to do with the fact that for the most part Tibetan and Indian Buddhist scholars tended to rely on commentaries; whereas Chinese Buddhists preferred to rely on sūtras directly. Since the latter did so, various forms of Buddhism arose unique to China, with assumptions about Dharma Indians, and later Tibetans, apparently never would hold.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:53 pm

pael wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:52 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:45 pm

There is only one Teacher.
Could you explain this, please?
The dharmakāya, the mind of all the buddhas, is the teacher.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:52 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:14 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:57 pm
Might be relevant:

https://tricycle.org/magazine/greater-awakening/
Quite brilliant article! Although it certainly has it's 'angle' in how it frames the Tibetan monk and his tradition, I must say. :stirthepot:
Thubten's lack of familiarity with the Lotus Sūtra is normal. However the assumptions of the one yāna teaching presented in the Lotus Sūtra is very much present in Tibetan Buddhism, explicitly based on that sūtra.

The reason why such a monk might be surprised by such a teaching has to do with the fact that for the most part Tibetan and Indian Buddhist scholars tended to rely on commentaries; whereas Chinese Buddhists preferred to rely on sūtras directly. Since the latter did so, various forms of Buddhism arose unique to China, with assumptions about Dharma Indians, and later Tibetans, apparently never would hold.
I think Nattier is clearly posing 'Thubten' as the patsy straw man to make a point, I suspect with a smile. Setting up a venerable character to be the patsy is a fine Mahayana tradition - the Vimalakirtinirdesa might be the best example. Its usually poor Sariputra who gets punked.

It should be pointed out here, though, that Thubten is not reacting to a Chinese interpretation of the sutra, but the sutra itself. In fact he had to go back and check the Tibetan translation to be sure what he was reading in English, presumably translated from the Chinese, was accurate.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:08 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:20 pm

It should be pointed out here, though, that Thubten is not reacting to a Chinese interpretation of the sutra, but the sutra itself. In fact he had to go back and check the Tibetan translation to be sure what he was reading in English, presumably translated from the Chinese, was accurate.
My point is that the later (post Yogacara) Indian tradition took a synthetic and systematic view where the sūtras were viewed as raw material out of which systemic approaches to the Dharma were elaborated, and sūtra exegesis became subordinate to these Indian philosophical schools. For example, take the disregard with which Madhyamaka would treat Yogacara sūtra sources, etc.

I have also observed Tibetans being quite surprised at what is actually stated in this or that tantra, because Tibetans in general depend on scholastic manuals for everything, rather than primary materials. It is only the expert senior scholars who work with primary materials.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:08 pm
My point is that the later (post Yogacara) Indian tradition took a synthetic and systematic view where the sūtras were viewed as raw material out of which systemic approaches to the Dharma were elaborated, and sūtra exegesis became subordinate to these Indian philosophical schools. For example, take the disregard with which Madhyamaka would treat Yogacara sūtra sources, etc.

I have also observed Tibetans being quite surprised at what is actually stated in this or that tantra, because Tibetans in general depend on scholastic manuals for everything, rather than primary materials. It is only the expert senior scholars who work with primary materials.
Gotcha.

I would make one point, though - the distinction you draw here between Indo-Tibetan and East Asia on the basis of whether commentaries or sutra are studied, is not so clear. I would say most East Asian Buddhists rely on commentaries also, and its only the scholars who study sutra, though there might be something to your point in terms of emphasis. I study sutra, maybe out of my depths, and you probably find this more commonly in the West, perhaps out of some echo of Protestantism framing our approach to study.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:20 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:16 pm
I would say most East Asian Buddhists rely on commentaries also...
But not Indian commentaries, for the most part. For example, there is no precedent in Indian Buddhism for taking the title of a sūtra and turning it into a chanting practice in Indian Buddhism at all (actually, there is no precedent for it in Sino-Japanese Buddhism either).
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:28 pm

anyway!!!!!

malcolm scores big with dave....for he has opened up a new venue of my craving to have a teacher...

The DharmaKaya....i get it...and Rupakaya is like what shall whisper in my ear so to speak?



you do not need to read the rest... what ya think of that..... the above :hi:
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:20 pm


However, "who obtained the three bodies more than numberless major world system dust particle kalpas ago" is standard Mahāyāna. The Buddha attained buddhahood at some point in the distant past and did not start out as an awakened being.
thank you...i never get why people want to turn this into some eternal thing like it never started somewhere in samsara as a human being striving to enter the path...

then all sorts of interpretations of Nichiren Shonin's writings are offered up.. a lot of which are questionably authentis but just commentary said to be of His hand...done with good intention...scary ...especially near Halloweeen...lol

It's scary...
but hey thanks for printing this...as i read on i bet they somehow will try to twist this into the original Buddha thing...
I finally got to see it as dharmakaya ...and then you point out there always was a Nirmanakaya buddha...grrrr...oh well...
I guess that first Nirmanakaya is Samantabhadra Buddha ...who is not Lord Sakyamuni Buddha


anyway!!!!!

malcolm scores big with dave....for he has opened up a new venue of my craving to have a teacher...

The DharmaKaya....i get it...and Rupakaya is like what shall whisper in my ear so to speak?

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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:33 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:28 pm

I guess that first Nirmanakaya is Samantabhadra Buddha ...who is not Lord Sakyamuni Buddha

In Dzogchen teachings it gets a little complicated with nine kāyas, dharma of dharma, sambhoga of dharma, and so on.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:33 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:28 pm

I guess that first Nirmanakaya is Samantabhadra Buddha ...who is not Lord Sakyamuni Buddha

In Dzogchen teachings it gets a little complicated with nine kāyas, dharma of dharma, sambhoga of dharma, and so on.
hmmm
well i'm down here in the trenches ...or up here ...depends on how you look at it..

but i want to thank you for being you....said with tears of joy ...for real..

you're one of the good ones Malcolm.

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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:00 pm

also like to point out...my Teacher is this practice...it serves me well .

I've seen the Buddha work so many times well before i started to practice.

i had a needle in a vein with a large amount of ethyl alcohol some kid...i was 13...was saying you get really drunk fast if you shoot this stuff..

when he registered and all the blood went black it was like something took over and yanked it out me vein...

a motorcycle..a bonneville ,, was sliding towards trees and marsh on a gravel turn in the road....first time riding a bike...17...conned my cousins boyfriend into allowing me the thing...told him yeah i know how to ride...

so like i'm practically scraping the ground sideways and something grabbed me hand and twisted the throttle and the bike righted itself...do not know how till this day that happened...

so many instances where something stepped in and saved me from a lot of nightmare....

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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:03 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:00 pm
also like to point out...my Teacher is this practice...it serves me well .
I have no problem with chanting the title of a sūtra. Classical textual exegesis indicates that people of very high caliber are able to understand the meaning of an entire text merely from the title.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:20 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:16 pm
I would say most East Asian Buddhists rely on commentaries also...
But not Indian commentaries, for the most part. For example, there is no precedent in Indian Buddhism for taking the title of a sūtra and turning it into a chanting practice in Indian Buddhism at all (actually, there is no precedent for it in Sino-Japanese Buddhism either).
Well, its not quite so straight forward. That's a difficult thing to argue with, but Indian commentaries certainly have their place in East Asian Buddhism. There is also a large body of Chinese commentary simply because Buddhism was adopted as the universal religion for a long period in China and was indigenized. I can't imagine this is development we really want to critique - I certainly hope there will be an American commentarial tradition at some point.

There are precedents to chanting NMRK, though not as a complete practice. Zhiyi chanted NMRK and similar things like the Chinese equivalent of namuichijomyoten (sorry don't know the Chinese characters), within a context of devotional ritual. And I believe there were precedents before him, as well. Jacqueline Stone has written about this.

MRK is not merely the title of the sutra - its the Lotus Sutra itself, as well as the Buddha of the Lotus Sutra. In the latter respect, its similar to chanting refuge in Amitabha - namuamidabutsu, or, Namo Buddhaya, and Nichiren says as much.
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Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:30 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:09 pm
MRK is not merely the title of the sutra - its the Lotus Sutra itself, as well as the Buddha of the Lotus Sutra. In the latter respect, its similar to chanting refuge in Amitabha - namuamidabutsu, or, Namo Buddhaya, and Nichiren says as much.
The idea that the title essentializes a text is not unknown in Indian exegesis. The idea however that the words of a title are the actual Buddha indicated in the sutra is a novelty.

There is nothing novel about a given sūtra or tantra existing in many forms, short to long, which are in essence the same text. But of course, are there really texts in Dharma? In fact what there are is artifacts representing the realization of the Buddha which exist in many forms throughout the eons.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:30 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:09 pm
MRK is not merely the title of the sutra - its the Lotus Sutra itself, as well as the Buddha of the Lotus Sutra. In the latter respect, its similar to chanting refuge in Amitabha - namuamidabutsu, or, Namo Buddhaya, and Nichiren says as much.
The idea that the title essentializes a text is not unknown in Indian exegesis. The idea however that the words of a title are the actual Buddha indicated in the sutra is a novelty.

There is nothing novel about a given sūtra or tantra existing in many forms, short to long, which are in essence the same text. But of course, are there really texts in Dharma? In fact what there are is artifacts representing the realization of the Buddha which exist in many forms throughout the eons.
True. True. Text are srarira. So in that sense, they are the Buddha... Anyway there's no argument from me about the precedent.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:53 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:30 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:09 pm
MRK is not merely the title of the sutra - its the Lotus Sutra itself, as well as the Buddha of the Lotus Sutra. In the latter respect, its similar to chanting refuge in Amitabha - namuamidabutsu, or, Namo Buddhaya, and Nichiren says as much.
The idea that the title essentializes a text is not unknown in Indian exegesis. The idea however that the words of a title are the actual Buddha indicated in the sutra is a novelty.

There is nothing novel about a given sūtra or tantra existing in many forms, short to long, which are in essence the same text. But of course, are there really texts in Dharma? In fact what there are is artifacts representing the realization of the Buddha which exist in many forms throughout the eons.
True. True. Text are srarira. So in that sense, they are the Buddha... Anyway there's no argument from me about the precedent.
Basically, all sūtras and tantras are the reverberation of the intrinsic sound of dharmatā, heard differently according to differences in capacity and inclinations.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:15 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:09 pm


MRK is not merely the title of the sutra - its the Lotus Sutra itself, as well as the Buddha of the Lotus Sutra. In the latter respect, its similar to chanting refuge in Amitabha - namuamidabutsu, or, Namo Buddhaya, and Nichiren says as much.
so in context of Dharmakaya, it is dharmakaya in the form of a practice once it is exercised by some suffering sentient . On it's own ,on the library shelves it is but a text.



And in the hands of a sentient it becomes Teacher , Parent ,Sovereign and will lead to an understanding that indeed you are Buddha ,defiled at the moment and on a path of discovery and renewal...refurbishment in it's ultimate form...in the Ocean of a Dharmakaya Buddha Field .

sorry for sounding so authoritarian...i'm really just bouncing this off minobu

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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by DGA » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:41 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:32 am
You could also just call these Buddhas Vajrasattva, Vajradhara, Samantabhadra, Amitabha, Akshobhya, Adibuddha, our Lord Shakyamuni Buddha, since he actually appeared in this world to teach us. This takes us back to Nichiren's teaching: Why revere other Buddhas when this one is close by and reaching out to us? Why run off to a Pure Land when you're already in His Pure Land of the Saha Realm?
Relevant discussion starts here:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26587&start=20#p410337

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