The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

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Minobu
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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Minobu » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:06 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:21 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:06 pm
if anything one could use their understanding to acquire more wealth and redistribute it...
anyway...my point..
Yeah. Bodhisattva Gordon Gecko. They have a temple dedicated to that one down on Wall Street. The problem was, he got arrested before he could give all that money away.

Show me someone who is actually living that, someone who gets rich just to give it away. That is fantasy.

Do you actually understand the mantras you have to chant to yourself to amp yourself up to be hedge funder? How narrow minded you have to be, ignoring all the ways you have to cheat to succeed? And the disgusting society of moms in yoga pants and bratty private school kids you create with that money? Nice dream.
just cause you understand sunyata does not make you want to enter a cave...and has nothing to do with
Once you know this, its not possible to rouse the burning intent to acquire anymore
or
Chanting for money and things loses its appeal once you start to see emptiness
for me,both statements lead to a nihilistic view..and for me are depressing.
And where did I suggest one would feel compelled to retreat into a cave? The extraordinary ones among us, yes. And I wish that the numbers who choose that path increase dramatically so that we can increase the chances that among them will emerge great teachers who will bring benefit to the world.

"Hey, you can chant for anything! Would you like to come to a meeting?"

"You mean I can chant for money?"

"Yes!"

"I can chant for p****y?"

"Yes!"

"Sign me up!"

And then you have a little echo room of people sharing "experiences" about how they chanted for a car and got a Mercedes!

You know how many people I have watched over the decades who got sucked into that game, and then, decades later, when the "benefits" no longer made them happy, they found the practice disappointing?
you say i twist your words into something else...
sometimes it is because i misunderstood you. but in this case ..your way of talking about emptiness is off and nihilistic.


why you decide to give me a lecture on the outcome of money in the hands of wall streers and the like i have no idea..i just pointed out that one could redistribute it..personally i have always given away more than i have....for real...
Yeah. Bodhisattva Gordon Gecko. They have a temple dedicated to that one down on Wall Street. The problem was, he got arrested before he could give all that money away.

Show me someone who is actually living that, someone who gets rich just to give it away. That is fantasy.


the below quotes by you have nothing to do with how you describe what happens when you realize Sunyata...in fact they are misleading and dangerous for one trying to understand sunyata
Once you know this, its not possible to rouse the burning intent to acquire anymore.
Chanting for money and things loses its appeal once you start to see emptiness
No where does Lotus Buddhism ask one to enter the cave...that is a whole other practice..
it would not work in Lotus Buddhism for it is a practice for oneself and others...simultaneously.
it is not something one does on their own...

as for the whole chant for stuff...

there is a thing in the Lotus sutra where it states you increase your fortune...that covers health, money, popularity, life span, personality, compassion, ability to help others....the list is endless....
so when you say
And where did I suggest one would feel compelled to retreat into a cave? The extraordinary ones among us, yes. And I wish that the numbers who choose that path increase dramatically so that we can increase the chances that among them will emerge great teachers who will bring benefit to the world.
i used the word cave to describe your style of
Once you know this, its not possible to rouse the burning intent to acquire anymore.
Chanting for money and things loses its appeal once you start to see emptiness
again the cave practice is for something else...there is never a time or place to practice Lotus Buddhism in a cave by yourself...

i think your having a bad day Q for you seem off your best before date...

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:26 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:06 pm
the below quotes by you have nothing to do with how you describe what happens when you realize Sunyata...in fact they are misleading and dangerous for one trying to understand sunyata
Yes, you keep saying that and how it makes you feel.
No where does Lotus Buddhism ask one to enter the cave...that is a whole other practice..
it would not work in Lotus Buddhism for it is a practice for oneself and others...simultaneously.
it is not something one does on their own...
Actually, retreating to a cave is practice for others. Come on, you know better than this.
there is a thing in the Lotus sutra where it states you increase your fortune...that covers health, money, popularity, life span, personality, compassion, ability to help others....the list is endless....
so when you say
The "health, money, popularity" is not the goal. These are incidental. Its different than making the acquisition of money the goal, which is what I am distinguishing.

again the cave practice is for something else...there is never a time or place to practice Lotus Buddhism in a cave by yourself...
This from the fellow who goes by the handle "Minobu", the name of the place where Nichiren in fact retreated to focus on cultivation and teaching his disciples.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Minobu » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:46 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:26 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:06 pm
the below quotes by you have nothing to do with how you describe what happens when you realize Sunyata...in fact they are misleading and dangerous for one trying to understand sunyata
Yes, you keep saying that and how it makes you feel.
now who is putting words into whose mouth.
Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:06 pm
No where does Lotus Buddhism ask one to enter the cave...that is a whole other practice..
it would not work in Lotus Buddhism for it is a practice for oneself and others...simultaneously.
it is not something one does on their own...
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:26 pm
Actually, retreating to a cave is practice for others. Come on, you know better than this.
uh yeah ...thats what i said...
Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:06 pm
there is a thing in the Lotus sutra where it states you increase your fortune...that covers health, money, popularity, life span, personality, compassion, ability to help others....the list is endless....
so when you say
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:26 pm
The "health, money, popularity" is not the goal. These are incidental. Its different than making the acquisition of money the goal, which is what I am distinguishing.
what about the whole mirage city on the path in the Lotus sutra....does not that suggest as common mortals on the path certain requests are going to crop up...and that being a Buddha , one must learn to have those requests appear in one's daily life...as an exercice .

We are Buddhas right?
We have this practice that leads to Buddhahood ...so what do you think is expected of us as common mortals with this powerful tool..Lotus Buddhism for oneself and others. Demonstrate...for oneself and others.


Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:06 pm
again the cave practice is for something else...there is never a time or place to practice Lotus Buddhism in a cave by yourself...
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:26 pm
This from the fellow who goes by the handle "Minobu", the name of the place where Nichiren in fact retreated to focus on cultivation and teaching his disciples.
he only retreated there after presenting His case to the government three times. He never went there in order to accomplish some aspect of the practice.

And Nichiren Daishonin never went to Mount Minobu with the below in mind. No where in His teachings does ever suggest such a style of practice, and i would go as far as saying the degenerative time is the worse choice for this..The Merit is produced with Shakubuku, something we cannot do in a cave.
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:26 pm
And where did I suggest one would feel compelled to retreat into a cave? The extraordinary ones among us, yes. And I wish that the numbers who choose that path increase dramatically so that we can increase the chances that among them will emerge great teachers who will bring benefit to the world.

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:34 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:46 pm
what about the whole mirage city on the path in the Lotus sutra....does not that suggest as common mortals on the path certain requests are going to crop up...and that being a Buddha , one must learn to have those requests appear in one's daily life...as an exercice .
The phantom city is the mirage of nirvana as taught to Sravaka and Pratyekabuddha.
We are Buddhas right?
We have this practice that leads to Buddhahood ...so what do you think is expected of us as common mortals with this powerful tool..Lotus Buddhism for oneself and others. Demonstrate...for oneself and others.
That is the rationale Creflo Dollar uses when he buys his gold rings. You sound like your are talking about the Prosperity Dharma.
he only retreated there after presenting His case to the government three times. He never went there in order to accomplish some aspect of the practice.
He went there to train his students. Nominally he retreated from the world.
No where in His teachings does ever suggest such a style of practice, and i would go as far as saying the degenerative time is the worse choice for this..The Merit is produced with Shakubuku, something we cannot do in a cave.
A few weeks ago, Mark R. posted links to biography of the Pot Wearing Monk, Nisshin. He retreated to a cemetery for his practice. And then later he engaged in vigorous shakubuku.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by The Cicada » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:34 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:21 pm
"Hey, you can chant for anything! Would you like to come to a meeting?"

"You mean I can chant for money?"

"Yes!"

"I can chant for p****y?"

"Yes!"

"Sign me up!"
FWIW, I didn't start chanting for p***y until they made it very clear that I should just chant for an earthly desire. Supposedly pursuing these desires was going to lessen them and make me enlightened, which I understood from previous study to be a state so awesome you shouldn't even care about that stuff. How that was supposed to work was beyond me. The Buddha is a good doctor, His clinic is samsara. Who am I to question?

:shrug:
And then you have a little echo room of people sharing "experiences" about how they chanted for a car and got a Mercedes!

You know how many people I have watched over the decades who got sucked into that game, and then, decades later, when the "benefits" no longer made them happy, they found the practice disappointing?
People were chanting for weed, to get co-workers fired so they could take their jobs, to sleep with individuals that were married—it wouldn't have surprised me if some people were secretly chanting for someone else to die, frankly. NSA/SGI... that's all its own crazy thing.

But Minobu has a bit of a point about wealth. It isn't inherently bad. Arrogance, petty elitism, disdain for the less successful are bad. It amplifies our actions and enables us our actions to have greater consequences that we are karmically liable for, for better or worse. And like the warlord in the story of Ohashi no Taro, getting it can implicate us in certain bad karma depending on the state of the society we live in.

James Allen was more of a New Thought Christian guy, but his writings draw significantly from Buddhism. He wrote something about this subject to the effect of "the person who is now good was not always so, the person who is now evil was likely once good." His point was that the wealthy have wealth because they have good karma. As an example, if a guy is able to get a small loan of a million dollars from his father, use that to found his own fortune and eventually become the POTUS, as Buddhists we all have to acknowledge that this is a manifestation of good karma. But in this life, such a person could be making generally good or bad karma* for his future—though we shouldn't attribute the result to his success what appear to be his present flaws. Most beings stop making good karma or even start making bad karma once they get too high up.

(*Or he might risk his fortune to fight for the people and become the greatest president ever. Not trolling here. That completely hypothetical situation is totally possible. Like a righteous WWF smackdown on the also hypothetical corrupt and complacent global elite in this "what-if" scenario of an example where his next life is as Brahma.)

Buddhist scripture covers this. The rich and powerful have great karma. The gods have tremendous karma. Beings in the formless heavens have huge, huge really good karma. You need all of the virtues it took to get to those places (and then some) to attain Buddhahood, though, even though those destinations themselves tend to be bigly distracting. Owning a modest and successful business in this society and giving a livelihood to your employees isn't bad. Being a cutthroat CEO or living off a trust fund? ... Nah bro.

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by illarraza » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:20 am

Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:45 pm
i do not ascribe to this view.
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:59 pm


When a person is described as having attained this insight in the sutras, they relinquish the desire for the household life. Its not depressing. Its liberating.
that has nothing to do with the empty nature of the reality we dwell in. No where is the understanding of emptiness about no longer craving . Or coming to some realization it's all nebulous and unnecessary.

fine you dig that sort of goal...it's a free world...but it is not a Buddhist teaching...



Karma allows for wealth and allows for homelessness.

Even in the Lotus sutra there is something somewhere i read along the lines where fortune increases...

I don't know what Buddhism you are into thats' goal is to relinquish the desire for the household life, but i do not see that as a goal.

Even buddha was born a prince..
Even Malcolm talks of better places to live...

meh...
it's your bag..but not mine.

but please don't insert your understanding of emptiness into some philosophical homelessness is a goal thing.

aslo i'm hedging you are one of the haves and not a havenot ..that can skew wealth and what it means...on both sides.

wealth is always a good thing and shows karmic abilities.
http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2015/03/t ... judge.html

Mark

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Minobu » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:17 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:34 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:46 pm

he only retreated there after presenting His case to the government three times. He never went there in order to accomplish some aspect of the practice.
He went there to train his students. Nominally he retreated from the world.

i thought he left the world so to speak and retired from it due in course to some three times and you are out thing...he mentioned something like that about how many times you ask something and on the third time you retire from it...He admonished the government and gave them the solution three times......and then he of course carried on...he did not retreat into a cave ...

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Minobu » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:19 pm

illarraza wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:20 am
Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:45 pm
i do not ascribe to this view.
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:59 pm


When a person is described as having attained this insight in the sutras, they relinquish the desire for the household life. Its not depressing. Its liberating.
that has nothing to do with the empty nature of the reality we dwell in. No where is the understanding of emptiness about no longer craving . Or coming to some realization it's all nebulous and unnecessary.

fine you dig that sort of goal...it's a free world...but it is not a Buddhist teaching...



Karma allows for wealth and allows for homelessness.

Even in the Lotus sutra there is something somewhere i read along the lines where fortune increases...

I don't know what Buddhism you are into thats' goal is to relinquish the desire for the household life, but i do not see that as a goal.

Even buddha was born a prince..
Even Malcolm talks of better places to live...

meh...
it's your bag..but not mine.

but please don't insert your understanding of emptiness into some philosophical homelessness is a goal thing.

aslo i'm hedging you are one of the haves and not a havenot ..that can skew wealth and what it means...on both sides.

wealth is always a good thing and shows karmic abilities.
http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2015/03/t ... judge.html

Mark
I'm not insulting you mark , but i cannot find any answers to my questions in your blog....the first one you asked me to go to up a bit in the thread gave me a link to some jazzy guy stuff...then his talking of toda... :shrug:

it would be better for me if you just answer the question here ...

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Queequeg » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:57 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:17 pm
i thought he left the world so to speak and retired from it due in course to some three times and you are out thing...he mentioned something like that about how many times you ask something and on the third time you retire from it...He admonished the government and gave them the solution three times......and then he of course carried on...he did not retreat into a cave ...
Having delivered this advice, I returned to my lodging. But, just as in the past, those in both the upper and lower levels of the government refused to heed my words. My intention all along had been to attempt to repay the debt of gratitude I owe my country by offering such advice. If after delivering three such admonitions my words were still ignored, I had determined to withdraw to retirement in the mountain forests. Indeed, it is stated in one of the ancient texts that if after three attempts to warn the rulers one’s advice is still unheeded, one should withdraw from the scene. In compliance with that text, I have retired to the mountains.
Letter to Shimoyama

But he also wrote:
though I do not think of myself as one who has retired from the world, other people seem to look at me in that way, and so I make it a rule not to leave this mountain.
On Repaying Debts of Gratitude

The text he refers to about retiring is a Chinese Confucian text. I guess the way to reconcile these two statements is that he withdrew from political life, but not from Dharma practice. Up at Minobu, he focused on training his students.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Queequeg » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:22 pm

Minobu, the problem here is that you attribute an exaggerated position to me, and even though I keep explaining you have me wrong, you just keep returning to what you think I mean, or how a couple lines I wrote make you feel.

Let me spell it out one last time:

If one thinks things are real, having "self", solidity, essence, then one thinks that by acquiring the thing happiness will follow. In this case, happiness is attributed as a quality of the thing to be gained. However, what inevitably happens is that things, lacking any essence, acquisition of the thing fails to bring happiness as hoped, or an ephemeral happiness. This is because the thing sought has no self. We have no self. And so thinking that somehow bringing these things together will leads to happiness is bound to only bring disappointment. This is basic Buddhism.

If one's whole idea of happiness is wrapped up in acquiring money or affirming relationships, or whatever, this is happiness built on an illusory foundation and will, sooner or later collapse. Seeing this truth, one will tend to loosen their attachments.

It is a different matter if one is liberated and can freely utilize phenomena and noumena to bring real happiness in Dharma to people. In this case, one is a master of upaya. But, accumulating wealth by such a being is not the same as the craving propelled accumulation of wealth of one who is deluded about the nature of reality.

I don't know what else to say.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Minobu » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:59 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:22 pm
Minobu, the problem here is that you attribute an exaggerated position to me, and even though I keep explaining you have me wrong, you just keep returning to what you think I mean, or how a couple lines I wrote make you feel.

Let me spell it out one last time:

If one thinks things are real, having "self", solidity, essence, then one thinks that by acquiring the thing happiness will follow. In this case, happiness is attributed as a quality of the thing to be gained. However, what inevitably happens is that things, lacking any essence, acquisition of the thing fails to bring happiness as hoped, or an ephemeral happiness. This is because the thing sought has no self. We have no self. And so thinking that somehow bringing these things together will leads to happiness is bound to only bring disappointment. This is basic Buddhism.

If one's whole idea of happiness is wrapped up in acquiring money or affirming relationships, or whatever, this is happiness built on an illusory foundation and will, sooner or later collapse. Seeing this truth, one will tend to loosen their attachments.

It is a different matter if one is liberated and can freely utilize phenomena and noumena to bring real happiness in Dharma to people. In this case, one is a master of upaya. But, accumulating wealth by such a being is not the same as the craving propelled accumulation of wealth of one who is deluded about the nature of reality.

I don't know what else to say.
ok take this what you wrote
Minobu, the problem here is that you attribute an exaggerated position to me,
and i want to change it so you get me.
Queequeg, the problem here is that you attribute your take on me and decide what my intent is.
in this case the acquisition of money and somehow you feel you need to give me this lecture.
However, what inevitably happens is that things, lacking any essence, acquisition of the thing fails to bring happiness as hoped, or an ephemeral happiness
and yet when i said i have given away more than i have ..you seemed to ignore that...
i don't give a rats ass for material things or anything of this world....and yet i want it all...i don't think you get that...

i work for myself..2 to 3 hours a day for the past 42 years..sometimes only twice a week...i'm not rich...i'm not poor...family have condemned me to being lazy and throwing away all my gifts and i should be rich as hell..

i rather use my time doing this stuff and thinking about this stuff and practicing and trying out stuff...

you do not get me Q...you lecture me like i'm some sniveling wannabe rich guy....
nothing wrong with being a gazzionaire Q. and in the hands of someone like me...if i lost it the next day...it would not matter...

my great grandfather ran a town in Italy...my grandfather a world famous artist and pastry/candy maker /chef...baked elizabeth taylors wedding cake the first time she married burton...
he lost over 350 thousand dollars in the great depression crash...his wife went nuts...he took a drink..put it down ..went to work and did not give a tinker's toss...drove his wife further nuts...

Also another anecdote;when his father died at the beginning of the last century Italy wanted him to return to live there for a two year period in order for him to be able to take the wealth out of country...some weird rule...he said no and got like 5% ..it amounted to over 200 grand...he did not care.....

i say this so you will stop talking to me like some snivelling idiot drooling over lottery tickets or something.

you don't get me...
when i've left wives i left everything...did not want to argue over anything...when people need ..i give even at the cost of being almost broke...who cares i will make more...get it now...you are not talking to what you think you are talking to.

it's important you know that....

great wealth and health and prosperity and popularity and friends galore and fun times....nothing wrong with wanting that or producing a life like that and saying wow..i did this with Nichiren Daishonin's practice....
nothing wrong with impressing people with power in order to shakubuku...who cares if they don't get why they are actually doing the thing...

look illarazza , jazzy , you and others all have their way they want people to practice...each a little different...i don't care how anyone practices so long as they practice...some are adamnat the gakki sucks others adamant it's the only one that understands...

you are explaining to me your paradigm of what you think life is all about...cool...but it's not me....
i don't like to painted with someone else's brush...nor do i like someone using what they think emptiness is in order to talk about non attachment...two different things not connected EVER!...the point of understanding emptiness is about developing true compassion because you are not an island unto yourself...non attachment is a whole other teaching ..unrelated....it can be but you end up missing the real point...so let it alone...

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by illarraza » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:58 am

RengeReciter wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:21 pm
illarraza wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:13 am
RengeReciter wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:23 pm
A primary point of dissent between the myriad sects of Nichiren Buddhism that exist in the world today is found in the identity of the Eternal Buddha.

While disagreement concerning a mere doctrinal point may seem superficial, the implications of the stance that one adopts are profound. The identity of the Eternal Buddha directly informs the significance of both the gohonzon and the practice of chanting NMHRK. Does invoking the daimoku nourish the latent seeds of Buddhahood in an aspirant through Shakyamuni's own attainment, or does that act affirm the reception of Nichiren's (displaced from his provisional identity) merits instead?

This question, and others stemming from it, is one that every Nichiren Buddhist must ultimately resolve for himself. In this online community alone, we have a sampling of Nichiren Buddhists who have come to very disparate answers to that question.

I have witnessed more than a few debates on this subject, and, while I find the well reasoned arguments that have been offered fascinating and personally edifying, I wish to take this discussion in a different direction or the purposes of this thread.

On a practical, everyday level have any of you noticed any pronounced difference in your practice between holding Shakyamuni as the object of veneration as opposed to holding Nichiren, NMHRK, or another figure entirely?

Stated another way: have you been able to actualize a difference in the experience of chanting NMHRK (in the benefits you receive, the way you feel, etc.) after experimenting with various interpretations of the gohonzon?

Thank you.
Life is much different chanting Namu Myoho renge kyo with the awareness that Shakyamuni is the Eternal Buddha. Everything is unfolding with my life taking on the attributes and circumstances of the Supreme Votary of the Lotus Sutra, Nichiren Daishonin.

Mark
Would you be able to pinpoint a couple of experiences, before and after accepting Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha, that highlight this distinction?
Immediately after accepting Shakyamuni as the Original Eternal Buddha, I experienced the Three Obstacles and Four Devils, not for a day or two, or a year or two but for more than two decades, day after day, month after month, and year after year. Something, in the more than twenty years in the Soka Gakkai was just words to me. Also, for the first time. I began to actualize the very words of the Sutra... the true protection... hatred and jealousy... deliverance from the bonds of birth and death. My faith became much stronger because their was no inconsistency in my beliefs, my beliefs mirrored the writings, teachings, and doctrines of the Supreme Votary. I no longer had to twist my mind into a pretzel to be able to shoehorn the SGI teachings into my mind of faith.

Mark

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by illarraza » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:10 am

Minobu wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:19 pm
illarraza wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:20 am
Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:45 pm
i do not ascribe to this view.



that has nothing to do with the empty nature of the reality we dwell in. No where is the understanding of emptiness about no longer craving . Or coming to some realization it's all nebulous and unnecessary.

fine you dig that sort of goal...it's a free world...but it is not a Buddhist teaching...

Karma allows for wealth and allows for homelessness.

Even in the Lotus sutra there is something somewhere i read along the lines where fortune increases...

I don't know what Buddhism you are into thats' goal is to relinquish the desire for the household life, but i do not see that as a goal.

Even buddha was born a prince..
Even Malcolm talks of better places to live...

meh...
it's your bag..but not mine.

but please don't insert your understanding of emptiness into some philosophical homelessness is a goal thing.

aslo i'm hedging you are one of the haves and not a havenot ..that can skew wealth and what it means...on both sides.

wealth is always a good thing and shows karmic abilities.
http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2015/03/t ... judge.html

Mark
I'm not insulting you mark , but i cannot find any answers to my questions in your blog....the first one you asked me to go to up a bit in the thread gave me a link to some jazzy guy stuff...then his talking of toda... :shrug:

it would be better for me if you just answer the question here ...
Its very simple. I believe the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren...

"However, there is a difference if one chants the daimoku while acting against the intent of this sutra. There are various stages in the practice of this sutra [and various forms of slander exist accordingly]. Let me sum them up by quoting from volume five of The Annotations on “The Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra”: “In defining the types of evil, The Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra states briefly, ‘Expound among the wise but not among the foolish.’ One scholar enumerates the types of evil as follows: ‘I will first list the evil causes and then their effects. There are fourteen evil causes: (1) arrogance, (2) negligence, (3) wrong views of the self, (4) shallow understanding, (5) attachment to earthly desires, (6) not understanding, (7) not believing, (8) scowling with knitted brows, (9) harboring doubts, (10) slandering, (11) despising, (12) hating, (13) envying, and (14) bearing grudges."* -- Nichiren Daishonin

*The Fourteen Slanders are found in Chapter 3 of the Lotus Sutra

and

“It is said in the Nirvana Sutra:’ Before listening to the Lotus Sutra we had all been of evil views.’ Grand Master Miao-le explains this in his Fa-hua hsuan-i shih-chi’en; ‘ The Buddha himself called his pre-Lotus Three Teachings (zokyo, tsugyo and bekkyo) evil. ‘ Tientai citing the words of the Nirvana Sutra just mentioned, says in his Mo-ho Chih-kuan (Great Concentration and Insight): They called themselves evil. Isn’t “evil” bad? ‘ Miao-le explains this in his commentary on the Mo-ho Chih-kuan:

‘Evil means “wicked.” Therefore we must know that only the engyo (perfect teaching) among the Four Teachings is correct. But it has two meanings. First, it means that following the “perfect teaching” (engyo) while rejecting the remaining three is correct, and rejecting the “perfect teaching” while following the three is erroneous. THIS IS A RELATIVE POINT OF VIEW (caps me).

Secondly it means that attachment to the “perfect teaching” is considered erroneous while detachment from it is correct. This is an absolute point of view in which there is no difference in the eyes of the Buddha between the “perfect teaching” and the remaining three of the so-called Four Teachings. Either way, we have to stay away from error. It is bad to attach ourselves to the “perfect teaching,” how much worse it is to attach ourselves to the Three Teachings!” (The Opening of the Eyes).

Nichiren therefore teaches:

"Attachments are bad and some attachments are worse than others." -- Nichiren Daishonin

I don't believe such teachers as Daisaku Ikeda who teach contrary to Nichiren:

"Attachments are good and some attachments are better than others." -- Daisaku Ikeda

Mark

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