The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

RengeReciter
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The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by RengeReciter » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:23 pm

A primary point of dissent between the myriad sects of Nichiren Buddhism that exist in the world today is found in the identity of the Eternal Buddha.

While disagreement concerning a mere doctrinal point may seem superficial, the implications of the stance that one adopts are profound. The identity of the Eternal Buddha directly informs the significance of both the gohonzon and the practice of chanting NMHRK. Does invoking the daimoku nourish the latent seeds of Buddhahood in an aspirant through Shakyamuni's own attainment, or does that act affirm the reception of Nichiren's (displaced from his provisional identity) merits instead?

This question, and others stemming from it, is one that every Nichiren Buddhist must ultimately resolve for himself. In this online community alone, we have a sampling of Nichiren Buddhists who have come to very disparate answers to that question.

I have witnessed more than a few debates on this subject, and, while I find the well reasoned arguments that have been offered fascinating and personally edifying, I wish to take this discussion in a different direction or the purposes of this thread.

On a practical, everyday level have any of you noticed any pronounced difference in your practice between holding Shakyamuni as the object of veneration as opposed to holding Nichiren, NMHRK, or another figure entirely?

Stated another way: have you been able to actualize a difference in the experience of chanting NMHRK (in the benefits you receive, the way you feel, etc.) after experimenting with various interpretations of the gohonzon?

Thank you.

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:05 pm

That is a very personal question... I will share generalities, but I can't discuss specifics.

For me, the question has been one of context.

My problem as a sentient being are the various ways I find myself limited and alienated from the world that I am interdependent with, that I am of the same quality as, that is consistent and flawlessly integrated.

Conceiving Nichiren as Buddha I found limiting. It simply made no sense after reading and reflecting on Nichiren's writings. The assumptions I would need to make were simply unwieldy. I found I would need an identity that was at odds with reality in too many respects. This could not be the Perfect, Complete Teaching - I found it labored and parochial.

Conceiving NMRK as Buddha, with Shakyamuni as provisional teacher required a distinction between Dharmakaya (MRK as Reality) and Sambhogakaya (MRK as Wisdom), Nirmanakaya (MRK as Practice) which is doctrinally unsound - the Three Bodies cannot be dissembled.

Conceiving Shakyamuni as Buddha with Three Bodies without beginning or end: 1. Is consistent with Nichiren's writings (Written Proof). 2. Is consistent with Ichinen Sanzen and the Threefold Inclusive Truth (Theoretical Proof and Written Proof). The conventional and absolute are flawlessly embodied in the example of Shakyamuni - as demonstrated in the Lotus Sutra (Written, Theoretical and Actual Proof).
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
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illarraza
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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by illarraza » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:13 am

RengeReciter wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:23 pm
A primary point of dissent between the myriad sects of Nichiren Buddhism that exist in the world today is found in the identity of the Eternal Buddha.

While disagreement concerning a mere doctrinal point may seem superficial, the implications of the stance that one adopts are profound. The identity of the Eternal Buddha directly informs the significance of both the gohonzon and the practice of chanting NMHRK. Does invoking the daimoku nourish the latent seeds of Buddhahood in an aspirant through Shakyamuni's own attainment, or does that act affirm the reception of Nichiren's (displaced from his provisional identity) merits instead?

This question, and others stemming from it, is one that every Nichiren Buddhist must ultimately resolve for himself. In this online community alone, we have a sampling of Nichiren Buddhists who have come to very disparate answers to that question.

I have witnessed more than a few debates on this subject, and, while I find the well reasoned arguments that have been offered fascinating and personally edifying, I wish to take this discussion in a different direction or the purposes of this thread.

On a practical, everyday level have any of you noticed any pronounced difference in your practice between holding Shakyamuni as the object of veneration as opposed to holding Nichiren, NMHRK, or another figure entirely?

Stated another way: have you been able to actualize a difference in the experience of chanting NMHRK (in the benefits you receive, the way you feel, etc.) after experimenting with various interpretations of the gohonzon?

Thank you.
Life is much different chanting Namu Myoho renge kyo with the awareness that Shakyamuni is the Eternal Buddha. Everything is unfolding with my life taking on the attributes and circumstances of the Supreme Votary of the Lotus Sutra, Nichiren Daishonin.

Mark

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Minobu » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:09 pm

illarraza wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:13 am
RengeReciter wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:23 pm
A primary point of dissent between the myriad sects of Nichiren Buddhism that exist in the world today is found in the identity of the Eternal Buddha.

While disagreement concerning a mere doctrinal point may seem superficial, the implications of the stance that one adopts are profound. The identity of the Eternal Buddha directly informs the significance of both the gohonzon and the practice of chanting NMHRK. Does invoking the daimoku nourish the latent seeds of Buddhahood in an aspirant through Shakyamuni's own attainment, or does that act affirm the reception of Nichiren's (displaced from his provisional identity) merits instead?

This question, and others stemming from it, is one that every Nichiren Buddhist must ultimately resolve for himself. In this online community alone, we have a sampling of Nichiren Buddhists who have come to very disparate answers to that question.

I have witnessed more than a few debates on this subject, and, while I find the well reasoned arguments that have been offered fascinating and personally edifying, I wish to take this discussion in a different direction or the purposes of this thread.

On a practical, everyday level have any of you noticed any pronounced difference in your practice between holding Shakyamuni as the object of veneration as opposed to holding Nichiren, NMHRK, or another figure entirely?

Stated another way: have you been able to actualize a difference in the experience of chanting NMHRK (in the benefits you receive, the way you feel, etc.) after experimenting with various interpretations of the gohonzon?

Thank you.
Life is much different chanting Namu Myoho renge kyo with the awareness that Shakyamuni is the Eternal Buddha. Everything is unfolding with my life taking on the attributes and circumstances of the Supreme Votary of the Lotus Sutra, Nichiren Daishonin.

Mark
I see a getting away from the True Buddha of Kuon Ganjo thing in your post...but Lord Sakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha is not necessarily the Prime Directive here. In fact It has not been nailed down...I've said what the Eternal Buddha is for me...non other than MyoHo RenGe Kyo ...

also
Most of my biggy experiences with Gohonzon were done whilst I believed in The True Buddha of Kuon Ganjo..So i would not rule out that these nuances are that important....they are to me now ..now that i see where and how they came to be.....but hey ..anything that brings the deluded mind to sit in front of Gohonzon and Chant with loving faith and trust...

so lets not be too harsh on what we all held to be true for a time in our practices...

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by RengeReciter » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:20 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:05 pm
That is a very personal question... I will share generalities, but I can't discuss specifics.

For me, the question has been one of context.

My problem as a sentient being are the various ways I find myself limited and alienated from the world that I am interdependent with, that I am of the same quality as, that is consistent and flawlessly integrated.

Conceiving Nichiren as Buddha I found limiting. It simply made no sense after reading and reflecting on Nichiren's writings. The assumptions I would need to make were simply unwieldy. I found I would need an identity that was at odds with reality in too many respects. This could not be the Perfect, Complete Teaching - I found it labored and parochial.

Conceiving NMRK as Buddha, with Shakyamuni as provisional teacher required a distinction between Dharmakaya (MRK as Reality) and Sambhogakaya (MRK as Wisdom), Nirmanakaya (MRK as Practice) which is doctrinally unsound - the Three Bodies cannot be dissembled.

Conceiving Shakyamuni as Buddha with Three Bodies without beginning or end: 1. Is consistent with Nichiren's writings (Written Proof). 2. Is consistent with Ichinen Sanzen and the Threefold Inclusive Truth (Theoretical Proof and Written Proof). The conventional and absolute are flawlessly embodied in the example of Shakyamuni - as demonstrated in the Lotus Sutra (Written, Theoretical and Actual Proof).
This is more or less what I was seeking. One inviolate rule that all Nichiren Buddhists abide by is the efficacy of the daimoku. Regardless of how you conceptualize the constituents of the practice, chanting NMHRK in and of itself produces fruit because it speaks intimately of and to the inherent Mind of all sentient beings. The manner of fruit produced is what piqued my curiosity.

If I am interpreting you correctly, Queequeg, is it fair to say that your experience of daimoku has differed with respect to how lucidly you are able to actualize ichinen sanzen? That is, your thoughts surrounding the object of worship act as perfect mirrors for the degree of integration you are able to perceive between yourself, your environment, and other living beings within it? Does it then follow that the prayers you have offered while holding one object of worship over another have manifested differently as well?

Thank you.

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by RengeReciter » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:21 pm

illarraza wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:13 am
RengeReciter wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:23 pm
A primary point of dissent between the myriad sects of Nichiren Buddhism that exist in the world today is found in the identity of the Eternal Buddha.

While disagreement concerning a mere doctrinal point may seem superficial, the implications of the stance that one adopts are profound. The identity of the Eternal Buddha directly informs the significance of both the gohonzon and the practice of chanting NMHRK. Does invoking the daimoku nourish the latent seeds of Buddhahood in an aspirant through Shakyamuni's own attainment, or does that act affirm the reception of Nichiren's (displaced from his provisional identity) merits instead?

This question, and others stemming from it, is one that every Nichiren Buddhist must ultimately resolve for himself. In this online community alone, we have a sampling of Nichiren Buddhists who have come to very disparate answers to that question.

I have witnessed more than a few debates on this subject, and, while I find the well reasoned arguments that have been offered fascinating and personally edifying, I wish to take this discussion in a different direction or the purposes of this thread.

On a practical, everyday level have any of you noticed any pronounced difference in your practice between holding Shakyamuni as the object of veneration as opposed to holding Nichiren, NMHRK, or another figure entirely?

Stated another way: have you been able to actualize a difference in the experience of chanting NMHRK (in the benefits you receive, the way you feel, etc.) after experimenting with various interpretations of the gohonzon?

Thank you.
Life is much different chanting Namu Myoho renge kyo with the awareness that Shakyamuni is the Eternal Buddha. Everything is unfolding with my life taking on the attributes and circumstances of the Supreme Votary of the Lotus Sutra, Nichiren Daishonin.

Mark
Would you be able to pinpoint a couple of experiences, before and after accepting Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha, that highlight this distinction?

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by RengeReciter » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:26 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:09 pm
illarraza wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:13 am
RengeReciter wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:23 pm
A primary point of dissent between the myriad sects of Nichiren Buddhism that exist in the world today is found in the identity of the Eternal Buddha.

While disagreement concerning a mere doctrinal point may seem superficial, the implications of the stance that one adopts are profound. The identity of the Eternal Buddha directly informs the significance of both the gohonzon and the practice of chanting NMHRK. Does invoking the daimoku nourish the latent seeds of Buddhahood in an aspirant through Shakyamuni's own attainment, or does that act affirm the reception of Nichiren's (displaced from his provisional identity) merits instead?

This question, and others stemming from it, is one that every Nichiren Buddhist must ultimately resolve for himself. In this online community alone, we have a sampling of Nichiren Buddhists who have come to very disparate answers to that question.

I have witnessed more than a few debates on this subject, and, while I find the well reasoned arguments that have been offered fascinating and personally edifying, I wish to take this discussion in a different direction or the purposes of this thread.

On a practical, everyday level have any of you noticed any pronounced difference in your practice between holding Shakyamuni as the object of veneration as opposed to holding Nichiren, NMHRK, or another figure entirely?

Stated another way: have you been able to actualize a difference in the experience of chanting NMHRK (in the benefits you receive, the way you feel, etc.) after experimenting with various interpretations of the gohonzon?

Thank you.
Life is much different chanting Namu Myoho renge kyo with the awareness that Shakyamuni is the Eternal Buddha. Everything is unfolding with my life taking on the attributes and circumstances of the Supreme Votary of the Lotus Sutra, Nichiren Daishonin.

Mark
I see a getting away from the True Buddha of Kuon Ganjo thing in your post...but Lord Sakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha is not necessarily the Prime Directive here. In fact It has not been nailed down...I've said what the Eternal Buddha is for me...non other than MyoHo RenGe Kyo ...

also
Most of my biggy experiences with Gohonzon were done whilst I believed in The True Buddha of Kuon Ganjo..So i would not rule out that these nuances are that important....they are to me now ..now that i see where and how they came to be.....but hey ..anything that brings the deluded mind to sit in front of Gohonzon and Chant with loving faith and trust...

so lets not be too harsh on what we all held to be true for a time in our practices...
This is something that I too have noticed, Minobu.

My most conspicuous experiences of actual proof occurred, ironically, when I practiced with the doctrinal staples of the SGI (Nichiren as True Buddha, challenging obstacles, conforming one's intent with that of Sensei, etc.). Chanting with a differing interpretation of the object of worship still produces result, but I find that the effect is more subdued, more internal you might say. It is more difficult for me to manifest tangibles with respect to my prayers.

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Queequeg » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:48 pm

RengeReciter wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:20 pm
This is more or less what I was seeking. One inviolate rule that all Nichiren Buddhists abide by is the efficacy of the daimoku. Regardless of how you conceptualize the constituents of the practice, chanting NMHRK in and of itself produces fruit because it speaks intimately of and to the inherent Mind of all sentient beings. The manner of fruit produced is what piqued my curiosity.
Yep. The Daimoku is efficacious regardless. Mark R. I think will disagree with me on this.

I think of Nichiren's remarks about the nourishing qualities of milk - the infant does not have any understanding of milk, and yet the child develops drinking it. Maybe, as the child gets older and has the capacity to understand and make decisions for themselves, a misunderstanding of milk might have detrimental effects - like in the parable about the good doctor in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra who outlaws milk. These metaphors and parables shouldn't be mixed, though. :smile:

I also think of the past life in which Shakyamuni served the evil brahmin who promised to teach the Lotus Sutra. My reading of that parable is that regardless of the intent and conduct of the evil brahmin, Shakyamuni's efforts seeking the Lotus Sutra were sincere, and so inured to his benefit. Due to the efforts in that life, Shakyamuni was able to genuinely encounter the Lotus Sutra in a future life. Regardless of the teachers we serve, the determining factor is our intent.

Of course, I think it also holds that once you know that a teacher or teaching is false, continuing to follow brings no further benefit, and actually destroys any good karma accumulated because one then becomes a person who actively supports a wrong view.
If I am interpreting you correctly, Queequeg, is it fair to say that your experience of daimoku has differed with respect to how lucidly you are able to actualize ichinen sanzen? That is, your thoughts surrounding the object of worship act as perfect mirrors for the degree of integration you are able to perceive between yourself, your environment, and other living beings within it? Does it then follow that the prayers you have offered while holding one object of worship over another have manifested differently as well?
For one, I can't say that I understand ichinen sanzen at all, let alone lucidly. I think I have some idea about it that is on the right track.

But in practicing Daimoku, in actualizing, to be honest, I can't say that I notice any difference as I've evolved. With that said, I have, in the whole, taken actions based on my evolving understanding of Daimoku wherever it led me. When I found a particular interpretation incompatible with my evolving understanding, I discarded it. I have not dogmatically held onto things that no longer make sense to me. See my comments above.

At a certain point, ichinen sanzen opened up as an awesome, terrifying, vertiginous expanse. That is the view I find in the Gohonzon. I'm not sure what prayers mean anymore. Reciting Daimoku, gazing on the Gohonzon, contemplating ichinen sanzen...

I posted a gongyo I composed a few years ago in another thread. That's more or less my ritual practice.
RengeReciter wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:26 pm
My most conspicuous experiences of actual proof occurred, ironically, when I practiced with the doctrinal staples of the SGI (Nichiren as True Buddha, challenging obstacles, conforming one's intent with that of Sensei, etc.). Chanting with a differing interpretation of the object of worship still produces result, but I find that the effect is more subdued, more internal you might say. It is more difficult for me to manifest tangibles with respect to my prayers.
Is this maybe because you've stopped chanting with the intention you previously had?

Part of Buddhist education includes a realization about the nature of reality being ephemeral. Once you know this, its not possible to rouse the burning intent to acquire anymore. SGI generally does not follow the script of demonstrating emptiness, though its not absent in their teachings. They emphasize faith, which is a completely reasonable approach consistent with Nichiren's teachings (the object of faith though...) There's the story of General Stone Tiger - usually that Gosho is studied in SGI to emphasize faith, and that's right, but, implicit in story is also the fact that the reason he couldn't shoot an arrow into the stone again is because he knew it wasn't a tiger. Chanting for money and things loses its appeal once you start to see emptiness. At that point, your practice is supposed to evolve.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by The Cicada » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:17 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:48 pm
Part of Buddhist education includes a realization about the nature of reality being ephemeral. Once you know this, its not possible to rouse the burning intent to acquire anymore. SGI generally does not follow the script of demonstrating emptiness, though its not absent in their teachings. They emphasize faith, which is a completely reasonable approach consistent with Nichiren's teachings (the object of faith though...) There's the story of General Stone Tiger - usually that Gosho is studied in SGI to emphasize faith, and that's right, but, implicit in story is also the fact that the reason he couldn't shoot an arrow into the stone again is because he knew it wasn't a tiger. Chanting for money and things loses its appeal once you start to see emptiness. At that point, your practice is supposed to evolve.
Then again, the story of General Stone Tiger also demonstrates that he had the ability to shoot arrows through stone all along but didn't know it. A leap of faith bridged the gap to reach what was previously inconceivable in any realistic sense. This is also a theme of the Lotus Sutra itself—we trust the Buddha and have faith until we know through experience.

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Minobu » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:17 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:48 pm
Part of Buddhist education includes a realization about the nature of reality being ephemeral. Once you know this, its not possible to rouse the burning intent to acquire anymore. . Chanting for money and things loses its appeal once you start to see emptiness. At that point, your practice is supposed to evolve.
emptiness is not some nebulous ephemeral view of reality. you make it sound like it is some depressing nihilism , when in fact it is a vibrant beautiful view of life.
It evokes compassion.
it shows nothing can appear in of itself. as humans you need air , nourishment,just to live. look at all that goes into having those two vital things available ..and those things need so many factors in order to appear and exist.
the only non existent thing to emptiness is the fact nothing can be, in and of itself alone. which is beautiful and brings appreciation to the fact everything and everyone relies on one and another just to exist.

emptiness is not emptiness in the common sense of the word...the only empty is the lack of inherent existence which conotes that things are of themselves.

you start with thinking about what it is that makes you ,you. and what it takes to keep you alive...it takes two humans to do something for your very birth.

then you see what goes into everything for it to be. like a bell...miners mine the ore ..then someone smelt the ore, then shape the ore into a bell shape, then tune the bell..and every person doing that is there due to so many factors of just to be living...
this is the nature of existence...the non existence is the fact is the fact nothing is of it's own accord...

taking this to the point you live your life appreciating the fact we are all in this together...

the whole Shiva net thing and jewels...everything is connected like a net with you being a jewel inside each knot of the net...pull on one jewel and the whole net is affected.


there is the beauty ...add compassion to this system of thought and voila...Buddhism 101...
Chanting for money and things loses its appeal once you start to see emptiness.
that is totally wrong view of Sunyata .
the view is suppose to bring you to an appreciation of sharing in the experience. without sharing in the entire experience, the reality does not happen even..

Part of Buddhist education includes a realization about the nature of reality being ephemeral
the only thing ephemeral about it is the reality of change..mixed with a correct understanding that nothing is inherent and is empty of inherent existence. there is nothing ugly or depressing about being empty of inherent existence....in fact mix that with compassion ..and you have enlightenment.

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Queequeg » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:40 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:17 pm
Then again, the story of General Stone Tiger also demonstrates that he had the ability to shoot arrows through stone all along but didn't know it. A leap of faith bridged the gap to reach what was previously inconceivable in any realistic sense. This is also a theme of the Lotus Sutra itself—we trust the Buddha and have faith until we know through experience.
Sure.

But if you think it makes sense to convince yourself that a rock is actually a tiger, go for it. Let me know how that works out.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
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Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Queequeg » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:59 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:17 pm
emptiness is not some nebulous ephemeral view of reality. you make it sound like it is some depressing nihilism , when in fact it is a vibrant beautiful view of life.
If that's how you chose to read what I wrote, that wouldn't be the first time you put words in my mouth. You can bleed on me.
Buddhism 101...
"All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation."

When a person is described as having attained this insight in the sutras, they relinquish the desire for the household life. Its not depressing. Its liberating.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by The Cicada » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:32 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:40 pm
Sure.

But if you think it makes sense to convince yourself that a rock is actually a tiger, go for it. Let me know how that works out.
Reminds me of the title of chapter 5 of Ziporyn's Emptiness And Omnipresence: How To Not Know What You're Doing, Introduction to the Lotus Sutra.
Part of Buddhist education includes a realization about the nature of reality being ephemeral. Once you know this, its not possible to rouse the burning intent to acquire anymore.
Not to disrupt the conversation, I'm just not sure that I agree with this. If we Forrest Gumped an arrow through a rock once, but then couldn't do it ever again with really good and logical reasons based on very rational thinking for why this should be so, maybe we've missed something. It might seem convoluted, but if you think about this... if you say it isn't possible to rouse that burning intent again, isn't that taking shunyata as a kind of fixed reality? You got it, the truth, and now "the illusion is useless," seems to be the thinking. Doesn't emptiness also imply that you might as well rouse burning intent to get to whichever goal? Get things you need? Rouse bodhicitta? Practice like you're head is on fire to "gain" supreme enlightenment?

:shrug:

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:15 am

Everyone will be Buddha. But it might take some much longer than others. Chanting really hard about getting an Escalade, I'm going to venture, is not on the fast path.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by illarraza » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:42 am

The Cicada wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:32 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:40 pm
Sure.

But if you think it makes sense to convince yourself that a rock is actually a tiger, go for it. Let me know how that works out.
Reminds me of the title of chapter 5 of Ziporyn's Emptiness And Omnipresence: How To Not Know What You're Doing, Introduction to the Lotus Sutra.
Part of Buddhist education includes a realization about the nature of reality being ephemeral. Once you know this, its not possible to rouse the burning intent to acquire anymore.
Not to disrupt the conversation, I'm just not sure that I agree with this. If we Forrest Gumped an arrow through a rock once, but then couldn't do it ever again with really good and logical reasons based on very rational thinking for why this should be so, maybe we've missed something. It might seem convoluted, but if you think about this... if you say it isn't possible to rouse that burning intent again, isn't that taking shunyata as a kind of fixed reality? You got it, the truth, and now "the illusion is useless," seems to be the thinking. Doesn't emptiness also imply that you might as well rouse burning intent to get to whichever goal? Get things you need? Rouse bodhicitta? Practice like you're head is on fire to "gain" supreme enlightenment?

:shrug:
http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2015/03/t ... judge.html

Let me know what you think

Mark

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Minobu » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:35 pm

This subject is important, for if you are seeing it in the way i read you , well..... lets talk eh.
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:48 pm
Chanting for money and things loses its appeal once you start to see emptiness. At that point, your practice is supposed to evolve.
thats the line that you used that got me.
then i reread your post and started with the below where you used the word ephemeral to view reality.

you go on and say
Once you know this, its not possible to rouse the burning intent to acquire anymore.
this is ridiculous...especially when you say
Chanting for money and things loses its appeal once you start to see emptiness
from what you write here emptiness is some view that makes one lose all interest in acquisition of money. Money leads to such a better life in this system we live in. .without it everything sucks....and yeah yeah the ole your enlightened now and see that it all in the end does not mean anything...well begging for food like the monks of old did is not exactly why i practice this buddhism ..A Buddhism where Nichiren daishonin encourages us to live a better life........

So in your case emptiness , in this instance is about acquisition of money and the focus on money ..
but what about other things seen with this view of yours on emptiness.

would once you come to understand emptiness would a sunset be of no actual value?
why bother?
lets talk Sunyata or the view that all is empty of inherent existence

do you get any joy out of it ..lets talk the emptiness of sunset..
it's not inherent...so many things go into it..the sun itself the atmosphere, particles in the atmosphere, the weather and temperature, and the air itself.. the only emptiness is the sunset is not a sunset in and of itself. take away any of the above and no sunset. that is the nature of our reality which is illusional only in the sense it's not inherent ..if it was inherent it would be a thing one can hold onto forever. and nothing can be done to undo it especially in it's being..if it's being is inherent then it would not matter if the sun went down.
everything is like this.

emptiness and the acqusation of money or food or clothing ..from your view...i get once you see emptiness you no longer see any desire or need for these things.

actually!
the only emptiness to money is the fact it is not an inherent thing..it depends on governments, currency systems , capitolism i guess factors in, what else..banking laws, and the fact a human needs to do something to acquire it.you can ern it , steal it,make fortunes overnight on the stock market..

see the Buddhist view of emptiness should not make one have less desire to acquire it and use it..the view has nothing to do with how you feel about money and it's acquisition..the view is only about the thing it self..does it have a self..???? bingo..
why would seeing that a sunset is empty due to the fact take away any ingredient and it no longer even exists, turn the joy of a sunset to be something no one cares about anymore ..

your concept of emptiness borders nihilism if you think once you come to the realization of Buddhist emptiness your attitude towards money turns to , it no longer matters .

thats what i read from your post..
nihilism 101...

it's dangerous...it causes a lack of interest due to nihilistic view.

the beauty of the view and money is such .
realize the sky is the limit both ways...in how much you have or in how much you do not have...there's the true emptiness of money...not some nihilistic i do not need any anymore approach..that leads to homelessness

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:59 pm
Minobu wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:17 pm
emptiness is not some nebulous ephemeral view of reality. you make it sound like it is some depressing nihilism , when in fact it is a vibrant beautiful view of life.
If that's how you chose to read what I wrote, that wouldn't be the first time you put words in my mouth. You can bleed on me.


Buddhism 101...
"All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation."

When a person is described as having attained this insight in the sutras, they relinquish the desire for the household life. Its not depressing. Its liberating.

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Minobu » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:45 pm

i do not ascribe to this view.
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:59 pm


When a person is described as having attained this insight in the sutras, they relinquish the desire for the household life. Its not depressing. Its liberating.
that has nothing to do with the empty nature of the reality we dwell in. No where is the understanding of emptiness about no longer craving . Or coming to some realization it's all nebulous and unnecessary.

fine you dig that sort of goal...it's a free world...but it is not a Buddhist teaching...



Karma allows for wealth and allows for homelessness.

Even in the Lotus sutra there is something somewhere i read along the lines where fortune increases...

I don't know what Buddhism you are into thats' goal is to relinquish the desire for the household life, but i do not see that as a goal.

Even buddha was born a prince..
Even Malcolm talks of better places to live...

meh...
it's your bag..but not mine.

but please don't insert your understanding of emptiness into some philosophical homelessness is a goal thing.

aslo i'm hedging you are one of the haves and not a havenot ..that can skew wealth and what it means...on both sides.

wealth is always a good thing and shows karmic abilities.

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:53 pm

Minobu, you could ask me to clarify what I mean.

The question is one of attachment.

My mother lived through the fire bombing of Tokyo. Her family lost everything but their lives. My grandmother lived through both the Great Kanto Earthquake and the fire bombing of Tokyo. Twice, her family lost everything but their lives. Neither my mother nor grandmother (now deceased) ever had any interest in material things or the trappings of the good life beyond their utility to a life based on deep and real happiness in Buddhadharma.

If you are attached to nice clothes, houses, pretty things, or even to pretty sunsets (which the Millennial generation with their fetishization of 'experience' seem to be attached to, especially if they can instagram it) you are on an ultimately pointless journey, which I would argue is actually the nihilistic one. Because none of that leads directly to liberation and the happiness of Dharma.

Insight into emptiness generally has a loosening effect on attachments. Once you understand the impermanence of phenomena, it kind of works into your thinking that chasing these sorts of ephemeral joys are hollow. Some people, indeed, fall into the trap of depressed nihilism or the alternate expression of nihilism, decadence, but these are not the only options. Thankfully for us, the Buddha opened the real path.

Check out the conversion of Yasa in the Pali Canon.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Minobu » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:06 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:53 pm
Minobu, you could ask me to clarify what I mean.

The question is one of attachment.

My mother lived through the fire bombing of Tokyo. Her family lost everything but their lives. My grandmother lived through both the Great Kanto Earthquake and the fire bombing of Tokyo. Twice, her family lost everything but their lives. Neither my mother nor grandmother (now deceased) ever had any interest in material things or the trappings of the good life beyond their utility to a life based on deep and real happiness in Buddhadharma.

If you are attached to nice clothes, houses, pretty things, or even to pretty sunsets (which the Millennial generation with their fetishization of 'experience' seem to be attached to, especially if they can instagram it) you are on an ultimately pointless journey, which I would argue is actually the nihilistic one. Because none of that leads directly to liberation and the happiness of Dharma.

Insight into emptiness generally has a loosening effect on attachments. Once you understand the impermanence of phenomena, it kind of works into your thinking that chasing these sorts of ephemeral joys are hollow. Some people, indeed, fall into the trap of depressed nihilism or the alternate expression of nihilism, decadence, but these are not the only options. Thankfully for us, the Buddha opened the real path.

Check out the conversion of Yasa in the Pali Canon.
i mentioned craving because i see that you are saying that once one views emptiness they somehow have less craving , or attatchment..

to me this is fairy tale pie in the sky reverberations after one understands sunyata.

if anything one could use their understanding to acquire more wealth and redistribute it...
anyway...my point..

just cause you understand sunyata does not make you want to enter a cave...and has nothing to do with
Once you know this, its not possible to rouse the burning intent to acquire anymore
or
Chanting for money and things loses its appeal once you start to see emptiness
for me,both statements lead to a nihilistic view..and for me are depressing.

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Re: The Object of Worship: Personal Experience

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:21 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:06 pm
if anything one could use their understanding to acquire more wealth and redistribute it...
anyway...my point..
Yeah. Bodhisattva Gordon Gecko. They have a temple dedicated to that one down on Wall Street. The problem was, he got arrested before he could give all that money away.

Show me someone who is actually living that, someone who gets rich just to give it away. That is fantasy.

Do you actually understand the mantras you have to chant to yourself to amp yourself up to be hedge funder? How narrow minded you have to be, ignoring all the ways you have to cheat to succeed? And the disgusting society of moms in yoga pants and bratty private school kids you create with that money? Nice dream.
just cause you understand sunyata does not make you want to enter a cave...and has nothing to do with
Once you know this, its not possible to rouse the burning intent to acquire anymore
or
Chanting for money and things loses its appeal once you start to see emptiness
for me,both statements lead to a nihilistic view..and for me are depressing.
And where did I suggest one would feel compelled to retreat into a cave? The extraordinary ones among us, yes. And I wish that the numbers who choose that path increase dramatically so that we can increase the chances that among them will emerge great teachers who will bring benefit to the world.

"Hey, you can chant for anything! Would you like to come to a meeting?"

"You mean I can chant for money?"

"Yes!"

"I can chant for p****y?"

"Yes!"

"Sign me up!"

And then you have a little echo room of people sharing "experiences" about how they chanted for a car and got a Mercedes!

You know how many people I have watched over the decades who got sucked into that game, and then, decades later, when the "benefits" no longer made them happy, they found the practice disappointing?
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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