Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

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Minobu
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:04 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:30 pm
Remember these terms?

shikishinfuni - oneness of mind and body

eshofuni - oneness of self and environment
before i read on and see where this is going...you are killing me...

this morning's throne thoughts were of ...where do i start to teach people when i newly shakubuku them...
i can't start with hey time is a circle you are Buddha etc etc with all the vim and vigor i can muster...
anyway..going to read on....

and i wanted to start a thread about this very thing...how to introduce new people to the Dharma of The Lotus..
wow for the first time saying that made sense..The Dharma of the Lotus..
Dr Frankenstein i love you man...you really are a great teacher...thank you thank you ...and to think i almost got banned for life...
Last edited by Minobu on Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Minobu
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:06 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:25 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:59 pm
Lord Sakyamuni will always be the one who left me, and led me to the Lotus sutra.
That's what I get out of it. :shrug:
i meant led me , and led me to the lotus sutra...
please tell me you saw the spell check error..
or did He sort of "left me"...

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Queequeg
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:50 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:04 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:30 pm
Remember these terms?

shikishinfuni - oneness of mind and body

eshofuni - oneness of self and environment
before i read on and see where this is going...you are killing me...

this morning's throne thoughts were of ...where do i start to teach people when i newly shakubuku them...
i can't start with hey time is a circle you are Buddha etc etc with all the vim and vigor i can muster...
anyway..going to read on....

and i wanted to start a thread about this very thing...how to introduce new people to the Dharma of The Lotus..
wow for the first time saying that made sense..The Dharma of the Lotus..
Dr Frankenstein i love you man...you really are a great teacher...thank you thank you ...and to think i almost got banned for life...
Oh man. Don't worry, I'll write something dumb and catch your ire again.

The, 'hey, chant for anything's got people to the zadankai. The explanation of ten worlds and ichinensanzen inspired them. The practice, properly framed, worked.

The eshofuni and shikishinfuni taught pratitya samutpada without the nerdy convolution of the 12 linked chain. Ichinensanzen showed how one could change the world.

Those little Oriental pioneers were onto something.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Queequeg
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:52 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:06 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:25 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:59 pm
Lord Sakyamuni will always be the one who left me, and led me to the Lotus sutra.
That's what I get out of it. :shrug:
i meant led me , and led me to the lotus sutra...
please tell me you saw the spell check error..
or did He sort of "left me"...
Either worked. Buddha left us - he did the parinirvana show, to inspire us to develop resolve.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Minobu
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:18 pm

It's too weird ...weird in a good way...
but understanding this whole thing makes all the other stuff Buddha teaches finally makes sense...like twelve link causation..i go to wiki and it makes sense..
it's like all of a sudden i get stuff i only thought i did before.

but here we go...
The Buddha Vairocana thing.
I get we all are Buddhas come from Dharmakaya ...but why label >Buddha Vairocana< with Buddha...
yeah i know...Buddha and dharmakaya are synonymous..Buddha is dharmakaya personified with no difference....but if we use words...placing Buddha before Vairocana implies a singularity...just like lord Sakyamuni is not Buddha Maitreya ...we know that for certain For Buddha Maitreya is sitting on a throne holding the crown waiting...and if i am a Buddha then i am another Buddha...

am i getting too nuts and boltsy for my own good here...

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Minobu
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:56 pm

as you said and this is it..i read the whole post again...
but this....this needs tweeking...for me anyway...there is a part i am missing which affords me to continue to see duality.????
Conventionally, you will always be looking on the Buddha as other; when you awaken, however, and understand that Buddha is actually you, that the Buddha's mandala is your own mind, understanding that "you" are not the "you" you think you are, you awaken that "you" are the three thousand, the three thousand is "you", without hierarchy. That while the Buddha displays birth, awakening, teaching and parinirvana in India, you, in the place you find yourself, display the struggle for enlightenment that the Buddha has described as his own past. The Buddha is you telling this story in some future time and place. Because you are confused by the intrinsic nature of your own mind, thinking that what appears is something outside of you, all caught up in the particulars of your time and place, you don't see reality. To wake you from your stupor the Buddha addresses you, "Ajita, you are the eyes of the world!"

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:56 pm
as you said and this is it..i read the whole post again...
but this....this needs tweeking...for me anyway...there is a part i am missing which affords me to continue to see duality.????
Conventionally, you will always be looking on the Buddha as other; when you awaken, however, and understand that Buddha is actually you, that the Buddha's mandala is your own mind, understanding that "you" are not the "you" you think you are, you awaken that "you" are the three thousand, the three thousand is "you", without hierarchy. That while the Buddha displays birth, awakening, teaching and parinirvana in India, you, in the place you find yourself, display the struggle for enlightenment that the Buddha has described as his own past. The Buddha is you telling this story in some future time and place. Because you are confused by the intrinsic nature of your own mind, thinking that what appears is something outside of you, all caught up in the particulars of your time and place, you don't see reality. To wake you from your stupor the Buddha addresses you, "Ajita, you are the eyes of the world!"
Threefold truth... Zhiyi rejected reducing everything to emptiness (non-duality) as an inferior teaching. Look at that long quote. Inconceivable nature of reality.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Queequeg
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:21 am

We always have to keep the threefold truth in mind and understand that it is implied in all lotus teachings.

When we recite the ten factors, we repeat it three times to emphasize the three truths. It's actually a direct reference to Zhiyi's comments on the ten factors.

When we talk about the Buddha, he is conventionally real - all the stories are true. Buddha is also empty, beyond marks, indescribable and inscrutable. Buddha is also the middleway, both conventionally real, and beyond marks. As the middle, he is thus, and so he is called tathagata, thus come one.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

illarraza
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by illarraza » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:20 am

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:21 am
We always have to keep the threefold truth in mind and understand that it is implied in all lotus teachings.

When we recite the ten factors, we repeat it three times to emphasize the three truths. It's actually a direct reference to Zhiyi's comments on the ten factors.

When we talk about the Buddha, he is conventionally real - all the stories are true. Buddha is also empty, beyond marks, indescribable and inscrutable. Buddha is also the middleway, both conventionally real, and beyond marks. As the middle, he is thus, and so he is called tathagata, thus come one.
My limited understanding of these most profound concepts boils down to "two but not two AND one but not one":

Original Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha and we common worldlings are two but not two (faith) AND one but not one (practice). This is a Buddhist paradox.

Reality is two but not two but the means to realize reality is the practice of one but not one (or gratitude, supplication, and entreaty regarding our Parent, Teacher, and Sovereign, Shakyamuni Buddha/Gohonzon. Reality is monistic (two but not two) but the means of realizing the unity is the practice of relative monism (one but not one). Tientai's was a practice of will power consciousness. Nichiren's is a practice of faith. I would be willing to alter my view were one to post a more cogent argument based upon the Lotus Sutra and canon of Nichiren.

Mark

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:33 pm

illarraza wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:20 am
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:21 am
We always have to keep the threefold truth in mind and understand that it is implied in all lotus teachings.

When we recite the ten factors, we repeat it three times to emphasize the three truths. It's actually a direct reference to Zhiyi's comments on the ten factors.

When we talk about the Buddha, he is conventionally real - all the stories are true. Buddha is also empty, beyond marks, indescribable and inscrutable. Buddha is also the middleway, both conventionally real, and beyond marks. As the middle, he is thus, and so he is called tathagata, thus come one.
My limited understanding of these most profound concepts boils down to "two but not two AND one but not one":

Original Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha and we common worldlings are two but not two (faith) AND one but not one (practice). This is a Buddhist paradox.

Reality is two but not two but the means to realize reality is the practice of one but not one (or gratitude, supplication, and entreaty regarding our Parent, Teacher, and Sovereign, Shakyamuni Buddha/Gohonzon. Reality is monistic (two but not two) but the means of realizing the unity is the practice of relative monism (one but not one). Tientai's was a practice of will power consciousness. Nichiren's is a practice of faith. I would be willing to alter my view were one to post a more cogent argument based upon the Lotus Sutra and canon of Nichiren.

Mark
ninifuni

There is no conflict with the three truths. Two but not two is a derivative concept.

I understand what you are saying about the difference between Tientai and Nichiren, but I don't know if what he taught was will power consciousness... if I'm understanding what you are saying. Tientai taught Sudden and Perfect which is effortless. The real issue is that he didn't identify the exact means and in practice emphasized a Gradual-Perfect approach to enlightenment.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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