Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

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Minobu
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:10 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:58 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:25 pm
ok so like around 1550...the first jesuits landed...
it does not mean my theories about this stuff being forgeries..
i want you with zero agenda to prove yourself right...in fact i need you to be that guy right now...please...pretty please with jam and butter on the toast....

is it possible that the gosho was written after 1550.... like all forgies that came well after Nichiren Passed away...

is it possible after 1550 that my accusation of infiltration of doctrine came to be...

just the possibility...and i know...
It is extremely unlikely that the Rokunai list has been tampered with. I don't know if the original exists in Toki Jonin's hand, but the consensus is that the list is authentic.

Whether documents themselves have been altered, we don't know.

***

If there has been forging going on, I would suspect it would have happened sometime between 1282 (when Nichiren passed away) and 1500.

Anyway, there is no need to suspect Jesuit influence here. I think you need to posit some reason to suspect this other than you connecting these dots because the ideas rhyme to you.
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:23 pm
This letter is listed on Toki Jonin's Rokunai List.

http://www.geocities.ws/chris_holte/Bud ... ml#rokunai
but it could be hoaxed....there is a possibility...

if you can without agenda show me that and that that Gosho is 100% Nichiren Hand ...no possibility.....
then i will try and see...try and see...but i need 100% ...nothing can get in the way....

note to readers...Q and me are friends...only a friend puts up with me....lol :consoling:
Can't prove anything 100%. But the whole project of questioning Nichiren's writings because of the presence of hongaku ideas is being pushed back on.
Q ..it all rhymes with Judaic thought...
i sound amazed for it was not like this for me before i came back...
it's like the Buddhist world changed on me totally.
If this is so...i no longer have a problem with the concept of God The creator ...the only difference is Christians believe there is God up there making it all and then we are the lowly creation...not God..

buddhists are like, we are Original enlightenment and are Thus Come Ones of original enlightenment,
from http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/179
then the essential nature of our lives is Myoho-renge-kyo. And once we have come to understand that Myoho-renge-kyo is not the name of a sutra but is the entity of our own lives, then we will see that our own lives are in fact the Lotus Sutra, and the Lotus Sutra is none other than the sacred word preached by the Buddha in order to make manifest the entities that are our lives. And seeing that, we will know that we ourselves are Thus Come Ones of original enlightenment, who possess the three bodies within a single body.
Pantheists ,unlike christians, believe we are God.
Alan Watts was one of the first western philosophers in the modern world. He said He was both a Pantheist and a Buddhist.


it's all very strange for me...new...and ...strange...very new way of looking at buddhism and buddha...

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:15 pm

it's actually kinda cozy.....






why am i terrified to jump into this one????

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:16 pm

what is so bad......

what to do...what to do....


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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:27 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:10 pm
Q ..it all rhymes with Judaic thought...
i sound amazed for it was not like this for me before i came back...
it's like the Buddhist world changed on me totally.
If this is so...i no longer have a problem with the concept of God The creator ...the only difference is Christians believe there is God up there making it all and then we are the lowly creation...not God..
Not for nuthin - that's a huge difference.
buddhists are like, we are Original enlightenment and are Thus Come Ones of original enlightenment,
from http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/179
then the essential nature of our lives is Myoho-renge-kyo. And once we have come to understand that Myoho-renge-kyo is not the name of a sutra but is the entity of our own lives, then we will see that our own lives are in fact the Lotus Sutra, and the Lotus Sutra is none other than the sacred word preached by the Buddha in order to make manifest the entities that are our lives. And seeing that, we will know that we ourselves are Thus Come Ones of original enlightenment, who possess the three bodies within a single body.
Pantheists ,unlike christians, believe we are God.
Alan Watts was one of the first western philosophers in the modern world. He said He was both a Pantheist and a Buddhist.


it's all very strange for me...new...and ...strange...very new way of looking at buddhism and buddha...
Maybe you didn't understand what that little oriental was telling you the first time around?

:rolling:
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:43 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:10 pm
If this is so...i no longer have a problem with the concept of God The creator ...the only difference is Christians believe there is God up there making it all and then we are the lowly creation...not God..
Christianity has something 'like' original enlightenment, which they call original nature, but the problem with 'God' was never that he made the universe, or even us. The problem with 'God', from a Buddhist perspective, if I may be so bold and vain as to claim to speak for all Buddhists, is envy. Jealousy. Wrath. Hell.

The Christians have ways to explain away these problematic verses, like "Happy is the one [God] who seizes your infants [the Babylonians] and dashes them against the rocks." (Psalm 137:9) but are they convincing?

These things still have to be dealt with before one can say that they are 'fine' with God the creator, because 'God the creator', just like the Buddha, comes with scriptural baggage. It is that baggage that is likely to make you recant, I believe, in what you said above, but I may be guessing wrongly.

Either way, I am nervous to post about Christianity here, as the moderators do not like it. So that is probably all I will say.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:44 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:27 pm


Maybe you didn't understand what that little oriental was telling you the first time around?

:rolling:
:tongue:
Last edited by Minobu on Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:46 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:43 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:10 pm
If this is so...i no longer have a problem with the concept of God The creator ...the only difference is Christians believe there is God up there making it all and then we are the lowly creation...not God..
Christianity has something 'like' original enlightenment, which they call original nature, but the problem with 'God' was never that he made the universe, or even us. The problem with 'God', from a Buddhist perspective, if I may be so bold and vain as to claim to speak for all Buddhists, is envy. Jealousy. Wrath. Hell.

The Christians have ways to explain away these problematic verses, like "Happy is the one [God] who seizes your infants [the Babylonians] and dashes them against the rocks." (Psalm 137:9) but are they convincing?

These things still have to be dealt with before one can say that they are 'fine' with God the creator, because 'God the creator', just like the Buddha, comes with scriptural baggage. It is that baggage that is likely to make you recant, I believe, in what you said above, but I may be guessing wrongly.

Either way, I am nervous to post about Christianity here, as the moderators do not like it. So that is probably all I will say.
i don;t recall where but in a convo with Q the subject of evil and Buddha came up and i just shut down....lol...sort of went comatose...

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:47 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:46 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:43 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:10 pm
If this is so...i no longer have a problem with the concept of God The creator ...the only difference is Christians believe there is God up there making it all and then we are the lowly creation...not God..
Christianity has something 'like' original enlightenment, which they call original nature, but the problem with 'God' was never that he made the universe, or even us. The problem with 'God', from a Buddhist perspective, if I may be so bold and vain as to claim to speak for all Buddhists, is envy. Jealousy. Wrath. Hell.

The Christians have ways to explain away these problematic verses, like "Happy is the one [God] who seizes your infants [the Babylonians] and dashes them against the rocks." (Psalm 137:9) but are they convincing?

These things still have to be dealt with before one can say that they are 'fine' with God the creator, because 'God the creator', just like the Buddha, comes with scriptural baggage. It is that baggage that is likely to make you recant, I believe, in what you said above, but I may be guessing wrongly.

Either way, I am nervous to post about Christianity here, as the moderators do not like it. So that is probably all I will say.
i don;t recall where but in a convo with Q the subject of evil and Buddha came up and i just shut down....lol...sort of went comatose...
The Venerable Śramaṇa Zhìyǐ, the Buddha, and the Devil. Now there's a conversation to be had.

I had originally written 'Grandmaster Tiāntāi', but it turns out that that is actually a title for the Lotus Sūtra!
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:50 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:46 pm
i don;t recall where but in a convo with Q the subject of evil and Buddha came up and i just shut down....lol...sort of went comatose...
Here's the difference: God sends you to hell (actually, it is far more ambiguous than this, and many Christian sects argue that humans 'send themselves to hell' to avoid having God do this).

The Buddha permeates hell and is able to manifest devilry (presumably to save hell dwellers?). He doesn't though (unless the purpose of the devilry is to save devils? This strikes me as contrived however).

That's how I get it at least.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:53 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:50 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:46 pm
i don;t recall where but in a convo with Q the subject of evil and Buddha came up and i just shut down....lol...sort of went comatose...
Here's the difference: God sends you to hell (actually, it is far more ambiguous than this, and many Christian sects argue that humans 'send themselves to hell' to avoid having God do this).

The Buddha permeates hell and is able to manifest devilry (presumably to save hell dwellers?). He doesn't though (unless the purpose of the devilry is to save devils? This strikes me as contrived however).

That's how I get it at least.
lol..

i gots to lets this go for a bit...
me head hurtzzzz

said in newf

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:54 pm

Another way to see the Devil and the Buddha in Tiāntāi compared to the Devil and God in Christianity.

Hell, in Christianity it is the absence of God, in Buddhism there is no where that the Buddha is not, therefore he is in hell, and not suffering on account of it.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:20 pm

so like ok...we are manifestations of the Buddha...why we so screwed up then..
is it just the way it is and each and everyone of us is trying to fix up a screwed up part so we become like a Whole Buddha like Taho Buddha ..
is that what Taho Buddha is now...He was like it is now all these messed up parts that he fixed...

yay!!!! Team Buddha..lol...lets get it together!!!!

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:36 pm

Ok there is no you.
this you is just a messed up piece of Sakyamuni Buddha .
Buddha is fixing Buddha by doing this thing we think is real and we have some individual identity.
when in fact you are just a messed up bit who needs to fix it.

no reward...no promised pure land heaven realm...no hell either.
those are just expedients to fool you into taking up the real medicine.
you do your part and bingo ..gonzo..you become a fixed piece of buddha and Buddhas is that further on Sakyamuni's recovery to being like Taho Buddha a complete Buddha..or as the words in the Lotus Sutra a whole Buddha..

yay i figured it out so let me die now in my sleep cause it's all over ...

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:48 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:36 pm
Buddha is fixing Buddha
Buddha doesn't need to fix Buddha, that's why he is Buddha.

If we are also Buddha, than, fundamentally, we don't need to fix ourselves, we are fixed. Paradoxically, since, obvious to us, we are not fixed.

I'm going to quote Malcolm in an exchange he was having with a troll here, recently:

Malcolm wrote:All of this is true when in a state of equipoise on suchness. None of it is true from the conventional, deluded point of view. Now, ask yourself, are you a Buddha or are you a sentient being? There is no much difference between the two...but, the difference is a chasm.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:03 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:48 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:36 pm
Buddha is fixing Buddha
Buddha doesn't need to fix Buddha, that's why he is Buddha.

If we are also Buddha, than, fundamentally, we don't need to fix ourselves, we are fixed. Paradoxically, since, obvious to us, we are not fixed.

I'm going to quote Malcolm in an exchange he was having with a troll here, recently:

Malcolm wrote:All of this is true when in a state of equipoise on suchness. None of it is true from the conventional, deluded point of view. Now, ask yourself, are you a Buddha or are you a sentient being? There is no much difference between the two...but, the difference is a chasm.
it's because you are Buddha.
get it.
you are Buddha, but you are deluded and full of nightmares like cancers and flu's and epilepsy and poverty and lonliness and a myriad of sufferings.

but you are Buddha and manifested by Buddha.
so a buddha manifested a gazillion sentients all messed up and they play in samsara for a long time till they fix themselves...
you are Buddha

It's all Buddha..
the messed up are Buddha being fixed....you are messed up you are Buddha ..you get fixed by the teacher who is you...the teacher teaches his messed up selves...there is no self as far as you are concerned for you are Buddha...but as far as Buddha is concerned he is fixing sentients..which are of his manifesting...which are buddha or him...

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:04 pm

see we are made in his image and likeness because we are his image and likeness

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:05 pm

the question of why are we messed up if we come from perfect original enlightenment...
i just answered..
i get to die tonight...yay!!!!

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:11 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:05 pm
the question of why are we messed up if we come from perfect original enlightenment...
i just answered..
i get to die tonight...yay!!!!
I hope you don't mean that literally. Consider "original enlightenment" in light of Ven Nagarjuna's analysis of nirvana in the Mulamadhyamakakarika. Particularly "the limit of samsara is the limit of nirvana".

Temporally speaking, if one were to say "original nirvana" they would also have to say "original samsara", if they are to be coherent at all. IMO.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:41 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:04 pm
see we are made in his image and likeness because we are his image and likeness
Well, we aren't "made" though, in the sense of "by him". I do not think that we should take the divided body of the Buddha in Ch 11 as "magically created bodies" which are "magically created" by the Buddha in the "same way" that God creates Man.

I think that this works for Chinese/Korean/Japanese, but not for English, specifically because, for the English, it brings to mind ex nihilo creationism, something foreign to Buddhadharma.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:59 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:50 pm
The Buddha permeates hell and is able to manifest devilry (presumably to save hell dwellers?). He doesn't though (unless the purpose of the devilry is to save devils? This strikes me as contrived however).
What does it mean to "permeate hell"?

It's been a while since I thought about this Evil of the Buddha stuff and if you're game I'd like to think this through with someone who is familiar with Ziporyn et al.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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-The Grateful Dead

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