Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

illarraza
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Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:30 am

Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by illarraza » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:40 am

Reverend Sorin Yasuhara on the difference between Hongaku [Original Enlightenment] and Hongaku Shiso [Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment]

Many Nichiren Sects and Scholars mistake Hongaku for Hongaku Shiso

"Needless to say, the explanation I wrote about Hongaku and Shigaku have nothing to do with the ideology of Hongaku of Medieval Tendai, which teaches that we need not practice because everyone is already enlightened."

Hongaku and Shigaku

Hongaku means original enlightenment, Shigaku means the attainment of enlightenment. To explain the meaning, between Hongaku and Shigaku, there, are some parables. For one example, a man is in a dark room with furniture, but he can not see and make use of anything inside theroom because it is dark. However, when once he turns on the light, he is able to see the furniture clearly in the room. In this situation, the furniture was there from the beginning, however, he sees it only after he turns on the light. It is not that the furniture suddenly appeared, the furniture was always there. It was just that he could not see it... The fact that the furniture was there from the beginning stands for the "Hongaku." And turning on the light and being able to see the furniture stands for the "Shigaku."

Another example, there was a blind man. He could see nothing. One day an excellent doctor came to see him and had an operation on his eyes. As a result, the doctor opened his eyes and he is then able to see the sun and the moon. As we know, the sun and the moon were originally there (Hongaku). But he saw them for the first time when his eyes were cured (Shigaku).Therefore, when one attains enlightenment (Shigaku), they never fail to attain the original enlightenment (Hongaku). And it is not until when one has Shigaku, that he becomes aware of Hongaku (Oh! Everything is originally in the enlightened state!!).

So, until the time we have Shigaku, we should make use of our power of belief that this world is in reality the Buddha's Pure Land. Nichiren Daishonin said in his writings named "Junyoze, no koto": On Dreams and Waking Reality; after cleaning off the deluded thought and view, then you will see that everywhere in the dharma world is the, Pure Land of tranquil light, and that the body of your own is the Tathagata of original enlightenment (Hongaku) possessing the three bodies in-one."

Note. The parables regarding "Hongaku and Shigaku' are from the Mahaparinirvana-Sutra (pp.522-523, Vol- 2) which Rev. Honda cited in his book along with "Junyoze no koto."

Regarding my last letter about Hongaku and Shigaku Other schools of Nichiren say that the Jumonryu is using forgeries to support our view, and Rev. Honda would be rolling over in his grave" Does the word "forgery"indicate " Junyoze no koto' , this Gosho is one of Roku-nai Goshos, so it should be considered as a genuine Gosho. I think the attitude of discarding every Gosho that contradicts one's own opinion would prevent one from understanding properly Nichiren Buddhism. Moreover, I was surprised to hear the name of Rev. Honda. mentioned, because the answer note I wrote about Hongaku and Shigaku was what I studied from Rev. Honda's book named "Daizokyo Yogi" (a commentary on the essential point of the Buddhist Canon), which consists of thick eleven volumes, and Rev. Honda preaches about Hongaku and Shigaku in PP35-37 of its fourth volume, where Rev .Honda himself cites the very same part of "Junyoze no koto" that I translated and wrote about on another occassion. So that is of course no problem.

Incidentally, I have obtained almost all the books of Rev. Honda, and Studied them. So I want to say that people should not have a false or fixed idea on the teachings of the Jumonryu, the Bukkoku Hokke Kai or true Buddhism. Needless to say, the explanation I wrote about Hongaku and Shigaku have nothing to do with the Ideology of Hongaku of middle-oldT'ien-T'al, which teaches that we need not practice because everyone is already enlightened.

Let s think more like a Buddhist.

Contending with each other over whether a cone is round or triangle is nonsense. If our one eye and another engaged in a controversy over their views, it would be ridiculous.or if someone seriously had a tug of war with his one hand and another, it would seem very strange. Buddhism is not to be a fool, Enlightenment is to understand consistently what seems a contradiction at a glance to us worldly beings. Buddhism teaches us that it is A at one time, but another time it teaches it is B. Both A and B are the true aspects of the reality, but People tend to think A and B are not compatible because of their habitual flat thinking, Buddhism expects us to grow up toward the third dimension. In other words, we are apt to be a 'Tanbankan' (a foolish trainee) who is carrying a board on his shoulder and can see only one side of the way, then falls into a ditch a last. So Buddhism suggests Tanbankans to put such a board down from our shoulder (this is the Shakubuku), but Tanbankans would not easily stop disputing with each other (they think such a disputing is Shakubuku, but it isn't). If we do not care about this point, Nichiren's Buddhism will be a supplier of endless disputing as if disputing is the only work for the Nichiren Buddhists.

Hongaku Shigaku what is the difference?

Some of the other Nichiren schools and scholars think -Junyoze no Koto" is a forgery... But teachers of Jumonryu (followers of Nichiju) do not. Rev. Honda used this Gosho to support his view not only in -Daizokyo yogi- but also even in -Hokekyo Kogi" ("Lectures on the Lotus Sutra") the copy of which stated he had in his last note. Also Rev, Honda put this Gosho into his "Seigoroku- (analects of sacred words). Moreover. another famous teacher of Jumonryu, Rev. Nisshi Nakagawa also put this Gosho into his "Seigoroku' (analects of sacred words). I think the reason why other's insists that this Gosho is a forgery is that it upsets their biased view on Nichiren's Buddhism. It is a matter of course that this Gosho, and all Goshos listed on the "Roku Nai" do not bother the correct view of Jumonryu at all. Sects who dispute this original list "Roku Nai" dated exatly after St. Nichirens death, either have dicarded goshos or have added goshos from or too this ORIGINAL LIST; one only need simple logic to see clear in this instance...When one goes back to Nichiren's teachingsas did our orthodox founder Nichiju Daishoshi one may accept Nichiren'steaching exactly as they are!

Moreover, many Nichiren scholars and sects bring forward the so-called "Hongaku shiso" (ideology of Hongaku) and refutes it citing Rev. Honda's words in -Hokekyo kogi-, with which he thinks it a refutation to my last note regarding "Hongaku and Shigaku." And they hate Hongaku monism and thinks Hongaku monism is not the view of Jumonryu (followers of Nichiju),

I agree with them on the point that "Hongaku shiso- is wrong. But it is totally beside the mark to refute us with refuting "Hongaku shiso". Because the, term " Hongaku-itself never mean nor imply the "Hongaku shiso"- People misunderstand to take the term "Hongaku" immediately as "Hongaku shiso." This is the most critical and fundamental error in theirview, as I explained before, the term "Hongaku" only means the "Original Enlightenment." This, as everyone can see, very easily, is what is preached in the Honmon (Original Doctrine), especially in the Chapter 16 "Measure of life". On the other hand, in the Shakumon (Manifestation Doctrine) it preaches on the basis of "Shigaku" (Attainment of enlightenment).

Therefore, needless to say, the subject of "Hongaku and Shigaki" is parallel to the subject of "Honmon and Shakumon." If I add a little more explanation here, in the Shakumon there is a matter of attaining" but in the Honmom there is no such a matter because Honmon is the view or world which is preached from the stand point of Original (Eternal). In other words, Shakumon is based on dualism and preaches distinction (Discrimination) between worldly beings and Buddha; Honmon is based on monism and preaches that when Buddhism only upholds dualism, it loses its life.

There are in the world many other religions like Judaism, Christianity or Islam which is based on dualism with the teachings of absolute discrimination between divinity and humanity. And they are wrong in their object of Worship and doctrine of Ultimate dualism. In other words, it is a matter of common knowledge that Nichiren Buddhism is a religion of monism, because the Lotus Sutra (Hokekyo) is the teaching of One Vehicle (Ichi-jo). More importantly, it does not mean mechanical monism but means the monism that can only be attained by our faith of whole-hearted devotion (Namu). In this sense, chanting Namu Myoho Renge Kyo (Daimoku) wholeheartedly is essential for this monism. It is so to speak a bridge between dualism and monism. And this is the theory of Soku shin-Jobutsu (attaining buddhahood in this very body) of Nichiren Buddhism. So if one stays attached to the view that the dualism is the ultimate substance of the doctrine of Nichiren Buddhism, where can one find the chance of Jobutsu (attaining buddhahood)? With such a wrong view, Buddha and we have to be the parallel lines forever. In the 'Kanjin honzonsho" (On the Object of Worship in Contemplation), Nichiren Daishonin states:

"Now the saha World Of the Original Time is the Ever-abiding pure land", apart from the Three Calamities and outside of the Four Kalpas. The Buddha has not already been extinguished in the past and will not be born in the future. "Those who are converted are of the same essence."This is identical to the complete possession of the three thousand (realms.) of one's own mind, the three types world" (In the Kanjin Honzon Sho). How do people read this essential part of this Gosho? Do they reject the "Kanjin honzon sho' as a forgery, too. Moreover, "Hongaku shiso' is a distorted view derived from the erroneous understanding of the doctrine of Buddha's three bodies. This view does not take the three bodies as a united whole.

Instead, after separating worldly beings and Buddha, the view links the Dharma Body (but this is merely an abstract one which is equivalent to a man in the dark or a blind man before the operation in the parables I wrote about on another occasion) only to the worldly beings and the other two bodies (Enjoyment Body and Response Body) to the Buddha, Then, one who has this view stays conceited thinking that it is the worldly beings that are the Original Buddha and Buddhas like Shakya, Taho are merely the Manifestation Buddha. In this way this view shuts the door to attaining buddhahood. Therefore, the subject of "Hongaku shiso" is a matter of misunderstanding regarding the doctrine of Buddha's three bodies. That is by no means the matter of 'Hongaku and Shigaku', One must not be confused to connect the two wrongly.

I will again cite the "Junyoze no koto":

"It is like waking up to reality from a dream in which one sees various illusions. After cleaning off deluded thoughts and views, then one sees that everywhere in the dharma world is the Pure Land of tranquil light, and that the body of your own is the Tathagata of original enlightenment possessing the three bodies in one."

Let us see the underlined part, it expresses the ultimate state of us which comes after cleaning off the deluded thought and view (practice). And what one should know here is that the "Tathagata of original enlightenment possessing the three bodies in one" is the very"Actual Buddha' (Ji-Butsu.) revealed in the Chapter 16 of the Hokekyo, That is by no means the Ideality (Abstraction) of Unmanifest Original Enlightenment (Hongaku no ritai) or Abstract Buddha (Ributsu). Accordingly, there was no room for argument in here from the first without peoples confusion and misunderstanding. If theyhave some more confusion in these regards, they should read carefully the writings of Nichiren Daishonin or teachers of Jumonryu, especially Nichiju Daishoshi's "Fuji- sho" instead of those commentaries written by the other sect's and, or, scholars. So they will surely find the break-through.

Written by Reverend Sorin Yasuhara

HONGAKU AND SHIGAKU

CORRECTING H.G. LAMONT'S CRITICISM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
HONGAKU and SHIGAKU:

Hongaku means Original Enlightenment. Shigaku means the attainment of enlightenment. To explain the relationship between Hongaku and Shigaku, there are some metaphors. For one example, a man is in a dark room with furniture, but he can not see and make use of anything inside the room because it is dark. However, when once he turns on the light, he gets to be able to see the furniture clearly in the room. In this situation, the furniture was there from the beginning, however, he sees it only after he turns on the light. It is not that the furniture suddenly appeared. The furniture was always there. It was just he could not see it. The fact that the furniture was there from the beginning stands for the Hongaku. And the fact that turning on the light and getting to be able to see the furniture stands for the Shigaku. Another example, there was a blind man. He could see nothing. One day in excellent doctor came to see him and had an operation on his eyes. As a result, the doctor opened his eyes and he gets to be able to see the sun and the moon. As we know, the sun and the moon were originally there (Hongaku). But he saw them for the first time when his eyes were cured (Shigaku).

Therefore, when one attains enlightenment (Shigaku), he never fails to attain original enlightenment (Hongaku). And it is not until when one has

Shigaku that he becomes aware of Hongaku (Oh! Everything has been originally in the enlightened state!!).

So, until the time we have Shigaku, we should make use of our power of belief that this world is in reality the Buddha's Pure Land. Nichiren Daishonin said in his writing named "Junyoze no koto", "Like waking up to reality from a dream where one saw various illusion; after cleaning off the deluded thought and view, then you will see that everywhere in the dharma world is the Pure Land of tranquil light, and that the body of your own is the Tathagata of original enlightenment (Hongaku) possessing the three bodies in one."

Some say that "Junyoze no koto" is a 'forgery' ? However, this Gosho is one of Roku-nai Goshos. So it should be considered as a genuine Gosho. I think the attitude of discarding every Gosho that contradicts one's own opinion would prevent one from properly understanding Nichiren Buddhism. The note I wrote about Hongaku and Shigaku was from what I studied from Rev. Honda's book named "Daizokyo Yogi" (a commentary on the essential point of the Buddhist Canon), which consists of eleven thick volumes. Rev. Honda preaches about Hongaku and Shigaku in PP35-37 of the fourth volume, where he cites the very same part of 'Junyoze no koto' that I translated and wrote in the last answer note. So that is of course no problem. Incidentally, I have obtained almost all books of Rev. Honda and studied them precisely before. So I want to say that people should not have a false fixed idea of the teachings of Kempon Hokke or true Buddhism Needless to say, the explanation I wrote about Hongaku and Shigaku have nothing to do with the Ideology of Hongaku of medieval old T'ien T'ai, which teaches that we need not practice because everyone is already enlightened.

Rev. Sorin Yasuhara
Kempon Hokke Shu

FOLLOW UP TO CORRECTING H.G. LAMONT'S VIEW:

September 22, 1998

As you know the parables regarding "Hongaku and Shigaku" I wrote before was from the Mahaparinirvana Sutra (pp.522-523 Vol,2) which Rev. Honda cited in his book along with the "Junyoze no koto".

Answer to Mr. Lamont's last note

1) Lamont and some of the other sect's scholars thinks "Junyoze no Koto' is a forgery. But teachers of Jumonryu (followers of Nichiju) do not. Rev. Honda used this Gosho to support his view not only in "Daizokyo yogi" but also even in "Hokekyo Kogi" ("Lectures on the Lotus Sutra") the copy of which Lamont stated he had in his last note. Also Rev. Honda put this Gosho into his "Seigoroku" (analects of sacred words). Moreover, another famous teacher of Jumonryu, Rev. Nisshi Nakagawa also put this Gosho into his "Seigoroku" (analects of sacred words). I think the reason why he insists that this Gosho is a forgery is that it vexes his view on Nichiren Buddhism. It is a matter of course that this Gosho does not hinder the correct view of the Jumonryu.

2) Lamont brings forward the so-called "Hongaku shiso" (ideology of Hongaku) and refutes it citing Rev. Honda"s words in "Hokekyo kogi," with which he believes is a refutation of my last note regarding "Hongaku and Shigaku'. Lamont hates Hongaku monism and thinks Hongaku monism is not the view of the Jumonryu (followers of Nichiju).

I agree with him on the point that "Hongaku shiso" is wrong. But it is totally beside the point to refute us with refuting "Hongaku shiso". Because the term "Hongaku" itself never means nor implies "Hongaku shiso". He misunderstands to take the term "Hongaku" as meaning "Hongaku shiso". This is the most critical and fundamental error of his view.

As I explained earlier, the term "Hongaku" only means "Original Enlightenment". This, as everyone can very easily see, is what is preached in the Honmom (Original Doctrine), especially in the Chapter 16 'Measure of life'. On the other hand, the Shakumon (Manifestation Doctrine) preaches on the basis of "Shigaku" (Attainment of Enlightenment). Therefore, needless to say the, subject of "Hongaku and Shigaku" is parallel to the subject of "Honmon and Shakumon".

To add a little more explanation here, in the Shakumon there is a matter of "attaining" but in the Honmom there is no such matter because Honmon is the view or world which is preached from the stand point of Original (Eternal) Buddha, In other words. Shakamon is based on dualism and preaches distinction (discrimination) between worldly beings and Buddha; Honmom is based on monism and preaches the ultimate equality of worldly beings and Buddha. If Buddhism does not preach monism and only upholds dualism, it loses its life. There are in the world many other religions like Judaism, Christianity and lslam which are based on dualism and the teachings of absolute discrimination between divinity and humanity. And they are wrong in their object of worship and doctrine of ultimate dualism. In other words, it is common knowledge that Nichiren Buddhism is a religion of monism, because the Lotus Sutra (Hokekyo) is the teaching or One Vehicle (Ichi-jo). More importantly, it does not mean mechanical monism but means monism that can only be attained through faith and whole-hearted devotion (Namu). In this sense, chanting Namu Myoho Renge Kyo (Daimoku) wholeheartedly is essential for this monism. It is a bridge between dualism and monism and the theory of Sokushin-Jobutsu (attaining buddhahood in this very body).

So if one remains attached to the view that dualism is the ultimate substance of the doctrine of Nichiren Buddhism, where can we find Jobutsu (attaining buddhahood)? With such a wrong view, Buddha and we would remain parallel lines forever.

In the "Kanjin Honzon Sho" (On the Object of Worship in Contemplation), Nichiren Daishonin states "Now the Saha World of the Original Time is the

Ever-abiding Pure Land apart from the Three Calamities and outside of the Four Kalpas. The Buddha has not already been extinguished in the past and will not be born in the future. Those who are converted are of the same essence. This is identical to the complete possession of the three thousand (realms) of one's own mind, the three types of world" (translated by Lamont).

How does Lamont read this essential part of this Gosho? Does he also reject the "Kanjin Honzon Sho" as a forgery? "Hongaku Shiso", on the other hand, is a distorted view derived from the erroneous understanding of the doctrine of the Buddha's three bodies. This view does not take the three bodies as a unity. Instead, it separates worldly beings and the Buddha. The view merely links the Dharma Body (but this is merely an abstract one which is equivalent to a man in the dark or a blind man before the operation in the parables I cited above in the first note) to worldly beings and the other two bodies (Enjoyment Body and Response Body) to the Buddha.

Then, one who adopts this view becomes conceited thinking that the worldly beings are the Original Buddha and Buddhas like Shakya, Taho are merely Manifestation Buddhas, In this way this view shuts the door to attaining buddhahood. Therefore, "Hongaku shiso" is a misunderstanding regarding the doctrine of the Buddha's three bodies. That is by no means the matter of "Hongaku and Shigaku". One must not confuse or connect incidentally, the part of the Gosho I cited from the Junyoze no koto:

"It is like waking up to reality from a dream in which one sees various illusions. After cleaning off deluded thoughts and views, then one sees that everywhere in the dharma world is the Pure Land of tranquil light, and that the body of your own is the Tathagata of original enlightenment possessing the three bodies in one."

This expresses our ultimate state of life after cleaning off deluded thoughts and views through practice. The "Tathagata of original enlightenment possessing the three bodies in one" is the very "Actual Buddha" (Ji Butsu) revealed in Chapter 16 of the Lotus Sutra. It is not Ideality (Abstraction) of Unmanifest Original Enlightenment (Hongaku no ritai) or the Abstract Buddha (Ributsu).

Accordingly, without Lamont's confusion and misunderstanding, there is no argument. If he has any more confusion in this regard, he should read carefully the writings of Nichiren Daishonin and the teachers of the Jumonryu, especially Nichiju Daishoshi's "Fuju-sho" instead of those commentaries written by the other sect's's scholars. Then he will surely experience a break-through.

With Gassho,
Rev. Sorin Yasuhara

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Minobu
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:50 pm

nice stuff :good:

so this is really in line with what i came to understand as I am Buddha already...have all the means to access this aspect of my being with Nichiren Daishonin's teachings and practice...
this is what I think Nichiren Daishonin wanted us to see when he said seek the Gohonzon inside us or your practice will be an endless austerity.
it cannot happen unless you have the right view and course your will towards it..

so for me it's like i have my own personal Buddha and i can direct prayers with that to various calamities such as ignorance , health , finances , popularity, friendship...in other words all worldly screw ups that distract me and make me feel unhappy.

happiness is not a bad thing...money is not a bad thing...health is not a bad thing...
enjoy your life to the fullest...why not...a Buddha can and does .
One has to do away with middle class values and ethics that keep us down...like the song said..

Heaven
Is the whole of the heart
And heaven don't tear you apart
Yeah heaven
Is the whole of the heart
And heaven don't tear you apart
There's too many kings
Want to hold you down

And a world at the window
Gone underground
There's a hole in the sky
Where the sun don't shine
And a clock on the wall
And it counts my time
And heaven
Is the whole of the heart
And heaven don't tear you apart
Yeah heaven is the whole of the heart
And heaven don't tear you apart
There's a song on the air
With a love-you line
And a face in a glass
And it looks like mine
And I'm standing on ice when I say
That I don't hear planes
And I scream at the fools
Want to jump my train
And heaven is the whole of the heart
And heaven don't tear you apart
Yeah heaven is the whole of the heart
And heaven don't tear you apart
Yeah heaven
Ah heaven
Yeah heaven




you know the difference between Holy Alchemy ,which is the western Tantric practice , and eastern thought is this...

Holy Alchemy is done to enjoy life to it's fullest and for some reason eastern thought went the other route of non attachment..

i'm far too western not to want it all.


there's a song on the air with a love you line.

illarraza
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by illarraza » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:21 am

Minobu wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:50 pm
nice stuff :good:

so this is really in line with what i came to understand as I am Buddha already...have all the means to access this aspect of my being with Nichiren Daishonin's teachings and practice...
this is what I think Nichiren Daishonin wanted us to see when he said seek the Gohonzon inside us or your practice will be an endless austerity.
it cannot happen unless you have the right view and course your will towards it..

so for me it's like i have my own personal Buddha and i can direct prayers with that to various calamities such as ignorance , health , finances , popularity, friendship...in other words all worldly screw ups that distract me and make me feel unhappy.

happiness is not a bad thing...money is not a bad thing...health is not a bad thing...
enjoy your life to the fullest...why not...a Buddha can and does .
One has to do away with middle class values and ethics that keep us down...like the song said..

Heaven
Is the whole of the heart
And heaven don't tear you apart
Yeah heaven
Is the whole of the heart
And heaven don't tear you apart
There's too many kings
Want to hold you down

And a world at the window
Gone underground
There's a hole in the sky
Where the sun don't shine
And a clock on the wall
And it counts my time
And heaven
Is the whole of the heart
And heaven don't tear you apart
Yeah heaven is the whole of the heart
And heaven don't tear you apart
There's a song on the air
With a love-you line
And a face in a glass
And it looks like mine
And I'm standing on ice when I say
That I don't hear planes
And I scream at the fools
Want to jump my train
And heaven is the whole of the heart
And heaven don't tear you apart
Yeah heaven is the whole of the heart
And heaven don't tear you apart
Yeah heaven
Ah heaven
Yeah heaven




you know the difference between Holy Alchemy ,which is the western Tantric practice , and eastern thought is this...

Holy Alchemy is done to enjoy life to it's fullest and for some reason eastern thought went the other route of non attachment..

i'm far too western not to want it all.


there's a song on the air with a love you line.
Then, you should follow the Master who has it all, Daisaku Ikeda. I will follow the man who lived on grass and bracken, Nichiren Daishonin and he whose only possessions were two robes and a bowl, Shakyamuni Buddha. Certainly when we become Wheel Turning Kings, we will have it all.

Mark

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Queequeg
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:42 pm

Mark, this letter from Rev. Yasuhara is truly remarkable. It took me a few days to have the time to read this. Outstanding. One of the clearest and most concise explanations of the place of Hongaku in Nichiren's teaching I have read.

Do you have more of these letters referred to in this post?

For those who might be interested, I believe that Gosho referred to in Rev. Yasuhara's letter is this:

On the Ten Factors
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1814
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:15 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:42 pm
Mark, this letter from Rev. Yasuhara is truly remarkable. It took me a few days to have the time to read this. Outstanding. One of the clearest and most concise explanations of the place of Hongaku in Nichiren's teaching I have read.

Do you have more of these letters referred to in this post?

For those who might be interested, I believe that Gosho referred to in Rev. Yasuhara's letter is this:

On the Ten Factors
the idea of original enlightenment and the reality that we are but manifested wished up entities of the Buddha is long been debated.
the fact this Gosho is neither signed by Nichiren nor dated in his hand might be a clue as to why this gosho is in the hands of the gakki as an original.

David

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Queequeg
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Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:23 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:15 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:42 pm
Mark, this letter from Rev. Yasuhara is truly remarkable. It took me a few days to have the time to read this. Outstanding. One of the clearest and most concise explanations of the place of Hongaku in Nichiren's teaching I have read.

Do you have more of these letters referred to in this post?

For those who might be interested, I believe that Gosho referred to in Rev. Yasuhara's letter is this:

On the Ten Factors
the idea of original enlightenment and the reality that we are but manifested wished up entities of the Buddha is long been debated.
the fact this Gosho is neither signed by Nichiren nor dated in his hand might be a clue as to why this gosho is in the hands of the gakki as an original.

David
This letter is listed on Toki Jonin's Rokunai List.

http://www.geocities.ws/chris_holte/Bud ... ml#rokunai
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1814
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:44 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:23 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:15 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:42 pm
Mark, this letter from Rev. Yasuhara is truly remarkable. It took me a few days to have the time to read this. Outstanding. One of the clearest and most concise explanations of the place of Hongaku in Nichiren's teaching I have read.

Do you have more of these letters referred to in this post?

For those who might be interested, I believe that Gosho referred to in Rev. Yasuhara's letter is this:

On the Ten Factors
the idea of original enlightenment and the reality that we are but manifested wished up entities of the Buddha is long been debated.
the fact this Gosho is neither signed by Nichiren nor dated in his hand might be a clue as to why this gosho is in the hands of the gakki as an original.

David
This letter is listed on Toki Jonin's Rokunai List.

http://www.geocities.ws/chris_holte/Bud ... ml#rokunai
this my problem with this whole thing....
from
On the Ten Factors
And once we have come to understand that Myoho-renge-kyo is not the name of a sutra but is the entity of our own lives, then we will see that our own lives are in fact the Lotus Sutra, and the Lotus Sutra is none other than the sacred word preached by the Buddha in order to make manifest the entities that are our lives. And seeing that, we will know that we ourselves are Thus Come Ones of original enlightenment, who possess the three bodies within a single body.
Maybe you not being brought up by parents or in my case a school system that taught God made us and in his mercy for us in our darkness He manifested on earth as a Human to teach us ..

The words i quoted mean exactly the same thing...it's like ...when the Catholic jesuits entered Japan and taught their stuff...somehow some schools of thought saw it as Original enlightenment only better....

i don't think this stuff is taught as Buddhist anywhere else except in this original enlightenment interpretation we get from japan.

It works well with america who want to see their God Paradigm taught in what they see as different world wide religions

i think somewhere in Genesis the whole thing started from "The Word"
it's like the Jesuits infiltrated Buddhist Thought..

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:03 pm

If you take the meaning to be linear, then I can understand the reservations. I don't read this as linear, but rather instantaneous. You have to keep in mind that Hongaku is Sudden, not Gradual.
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:20 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:03 pm
If you take the meaning to be linear, then I can understand the reservations. I don't read this as linear, but rather instantaneous. You have to keep in mind that Hongaku is Sudden, not Gradual.
well i do not understand that at all...
what do you mean by linear...rather instaneous? sudden not gradual?
i'm not being sarcastic but i do not see how this relates to the simple thing i observed. :


Buddha created entities ...we are but manifestations of Buddha through his Word.
the bible says
John 1King James Version (KJV)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

it's sort of like the same thing..

you know Q i've had issues with creationist anything..


anyway..not being sarcastic but there is nothing in your post i can understand...and that is to be taken literally ...i do not get what you are on about

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:52 pm

Right, so, Gradual refers to the path of gradual awakening - the 'proverbial' 3 aeons to Buddhahood.
Sudden refers specifically to an instantaneous moment of awakening - EUREKA! The sudden break through to awakening.

Its more than this, though. A Gradual path implies that Buddhahood is something to be gained, and therefore something that one does not have at the start. We somehow gain Buddhahood through eons of practice. It also implies that there is a linear progression - as though past, present and future are separate. The Sudden teaching holds that Buddhahood is intrinsic to us - ie. We all have Buddhanature. In the Sudden Path, it is merely a matter of being introduced to the knowledge of our own Buddhanature. Sudden also refers to the fact that there is only this moment - ie. ichinen. That is what the two metaphors from the Mahaparinirvana mean - having the lights turned on so we can see the furniture for the first time; having our vision repaired by a doctor so that we see the sun and moon for the first time. Having the lights turned on, or having our vision repaired (by the Buddha) is the only substantive thing that happens.

In the context of Nichiren's teaching, hearing the Daimoku is this introduction to our Buddhanature.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:07 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:52 pm
Right, so, Gradual refers to the path of gradual awakening - the 'proverbial' 3 aeons to Buddhahood.
Sudden refers specifically to an instantaneous moment of awakening - EUREKA! The sudden break through to awakening.

Its more than this, though. A Gradual path implies that Buddhahood is something to be gained, and therefore something that one does not have at the start. We somehow gain Buddhahood through eons of practice. It also implies that there is a linear progression - as though past, present and future are separate. The Sudden teaching holds that Buddhahood is intrinsic to us - ie. We all have Buddhanature. In the Sudden Path, it is merely a matter of being introduced to the knowledge of our own Buddhanature. Sudden also refers to the fact that there is only this moment - ie. ichinen. That is what the two metaphors from the Mahaparinirvana mean - having the lights turned on so we can see the furniture for the first time; having our vision repaired by a doctor so that we see the sun and moon for the first time. Having the lights turned on, or having our vision repaired (by the Buddha) is the only substantive thing that happens.

In the context of Nichiren's teaching, hearing the Daimoku is this introduction to our Buddhanature.
ok thanks..

but this has nothing to do with the words in the suspect Gosho talk of through word we are manifestations wished into existence by Buddha..

from

On the Ten Factors
once we have come to understand that Myoho-renge-kyo is not the name of a sutra but is the entity of our own lives, then we will see that our own lives are in fact the Lotus Sutra, and the Lotus Sutra is none other than the sacred word preached by the Buddha in order to make manifest the entities that are our lives. And seeing that, we will know that we ourselves are Thus Come Ones of original enlightenment, who possess the three bodies within a single body.
so the Jesuits would have taught that we are made in the same image and likeness as God.

which can be easily turned into
the sacred word preached by the Buddha in order to make manifest the entities that are our lives. And seeing that, we will know that we ourselves are Thus Come Ones of original enlightenment, who possess the three bodies within a single body
if you cannot see the parallels ...

Comedy relief time>
well then i'm like hallucinating all this strapped down on some gurney in a hospital screaming barking mad rants. the meds and the madness that i'm experiencing on some gurney is almost over and i'm hearing you, Nurse Q ,tell me it is going to be alright.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:12 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:20 pm
Buddha created entities ...we are but manifestations of Buddha through his Word.
If there is Buddha who speaks, creating sound waves, that manifest as beings, in a linear manner, then we could say the Buddha is a creator.

However, the Buddha's words are instantaneous. If we could somehow capture a single thought moment (ichinen), we would have a picture of the dharmadhatu (sanzen). In that instantaneous thought moment, it would be impossible to say that this part of the picture came before that part of the picture. Its all this picture. Now simply substituting particular dharmas - we can't say that the Buddha came first and sentient beings later - they are all part of a single picture. The center of that universe cannot be located. We could arbitrarily pick one, but close examination of that particular would lead us to a picture of the whole - the particular cannot be removed from the context.

In Mohezhikuan, Zhiyi explains that there is no before, no after, no vertical, no horizontal. Just this sudden, instantaneous moment. This is Ichinen Sanzen.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:16 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:07 pm
but this has nothing to do with the words in the suspect Gosho talk of through word we are manifestations wished into existence by Buddha..
It does. That Gosho is about ichinen sanzen.
so the Jesuits would have taught that we are made in the same image and likeness as God.

which can be easily turned into
the sacred word preached by the Buddha in order to make manifest the entities that are our lives. And seeing that, we will know that we ourselves are Thus Come Ones of original enlightenment, who possess the three bodies within a single body
if you cannot see the parallels ...
:shrug:

This was written centuries before the Society of Jesus was founded.

It should be obvious, but YOU are the one making these comparisons, observing these parallels. To paraphrase Nagarjuna, the confusion is yours.

Everything will be OK. [patting Minobu's hand] :consoling:
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:18 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:12 pm

However, the Buddha's words are instantaneous. If we could somehow capture a single thought moment (ichinen), we would have a picture of the dharmadhatu (sanzen). In that instantaneous thought moment, it would be impossible to say that this part of the picture came before that part of the picture. Its all this picture. Now simply substituting particular dharmas - we can't say that the Buddha came first and sentient beings later - they are all part of a single picture. The center of that universe cannot be located. We could arbitrarily pick one, but close examination of that particular would lead us to a picture of the whole - the particular cannot be removed from the context.
pure Pantheism !!!..Alan Watts would have bought you more than one coffee ...

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:20 pm

“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:25 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:16 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:07 pm
but this has nothing to do with the words in the suspect Gosho talk of through word we are manifestations wished into existence by Buddha..
It does. That Gosho is about ichinen sanzen.
so the Jesuits would have taught that we are made in the same image and likeness as God.

which can be easily turned into
the sacred word preached by the Buddha in order to make manifest the entities that are our lives. And seeing that, we will know that we ourselves are Thus Come Ones of original enlightenment, who possess the three bodies within a single body
if you cannot see the parallels ...
:shrug:

This was written centuries before the Society of Jesus was founded.

It should be obvious, but YOU are the one making these comparisons, observing these parallels. To paraphrase Nagarjuna, the confusion is yours.

Everything will be OK. [patting Minobu's hand] :consoling:
ok so like around 1550...the first jesuits landed...
it does not mean my theories about this stuff being forgeries..
i want you with zero agenda to prove yourself right...in fact i need you to be that guy right now...please...pretty please with jam and butter on the toast....

is it possible that the gosho was written after 1550.... like all forgies that came well after Nichiren Passed away...

is it possible after 1550 that my accusation of infiltration of doctrine came to be...

just the possibility...and i know...
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:23 pm


This letter is listed on Toki Jonin's Rokunai List.

http://www.geocities.ws/chris_holte/Bud ... ml#rokunai
but it could be hoaxed....there is a possibility...

if you can without agenda show me that and that that Gosho is 100% Nichiren Hand ...no possibility.....
then i will try and see...try and see...but i need 100% ...nothing can get in the way....

note to readers...Q and me are friends...only a friend puts up with me....lol :consoling:

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by narhwal90 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:36 pm

Its perhaps worth mentioning wrt the 10 Factors gosho Nichiren is using the kanjin style of discourse which by his time was widely used as an evocative style of discourse in Tendai, alongside the more traditional canonical interpretations- and had been for centuries. Stone goes into some detail about how kanjin style works, its goals and norms- strengths and weaknesses. The general idea is to juxtapose and relate concepts eg "the this is actually that" sort of language to tease out subtlties. Accordingly, proposing deep relations to other scholastic traditions and/or other spiritual traditions is probably going beyond the intended application of the text.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:58 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:25 pm
ok so like around 1550...the first jesuits landed...
it does not mean my theories about this stuff being forgeries..
i want you with zero agenda to prove yourself right...in fact i need you to be that guy right now...please...pretty please with jam and butter on the toast....

is it possible that the gosho was written after 1550.... like all forgies that came well after Nichiren Passed away...

is it possible after 1550 that my accusation of infiltration of doctrine came to be...

just the possibility...and i know...
It is extremely unlikely that the Rokunai list has been tampered with. I don't know if the original exists in Toki Jonin's hand, but the consensus is that the list is authentic.

Whether documents themselves have been altered, we don't know.

***

If there has been forging going on, I would suspect it would have happened sometime between 1282 (when Nichiren passed away) and 1500.

Anyway, there is no need to suspect Jesuit influence here. I think you need to posit some reason to suspect this other than you connecting these dots because the ideas rhyme to you.
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:23 pm
This letter is listed on Toki Jonin's Rokunai List.

http://www.geocities.ws/chris_holte/Bud ... ml#rokunai
but it could be hoaxed....there is a possibility...

if you can without agenda show me that and that that Gosho is 100% Nichiren Hand ...no possibility.....
then i will try and see...try and see...but i need 100% ...nothing can get in the way....

note to readers...Q and me are friends...only a friend puts up with me....lol :consoling:
Can't prove anything 100%. But the whole project of questioning Nichiren's writings because of the presence of hongaku ideas is being pushed back on.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by ItsRaining » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:45 am

Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:44 pm

i don't think this stuff is taught as Buddhist anywhere else except in this original enlightenment interpretation we get from japan.
Original Enlightenment is a pretty common teaching in other parts of East Asian as well (e.g China) being standard doctrine of the Hua Yan school and also being pretty widely accepted by most people in other schools like Chan.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by The Cicada » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:49 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:25 pm
ok so like around 1550...the first jesuits landed...
it does not mean my theories about this stuff being forgeries..
i want you with zero agenda to prove yourself right...in fact i need you to be that guy right now...please...pretty please with jam and butter on the toast....

is it possible that the gosho was written after 1550.... like all forgies that came well after Nichiren Passed away...

is it possible after 1550 that my accusation of infiltration of doctrine came to be...

just the possibility...and i know...
I've read that when the Europeans first arrived in China that they were so struck with the outward similarities of Buddhism there with their own faith that they suspected Buddhism was some sort of "mockery" of their god perpetrated by the devil. I think it was more likely that each culture had spiritually inclined individuals who were looking at the same "thing" through different lenses and with varying degrees of clarity. Buddhism maintained the highest degree of the clarity imparted to us by Lord Buddha while the greatest Christian mystics floundered at the bottom of the waterfall beneath the Dragon's Gate—and the popes and cardinals, and all of the church, were all too concerned with being spiritual mafiosos to care. They were hopelessly lost in samsara, caught up in the game.


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