Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

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Queequeg
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:01 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:04 pm
see we are made in his image and likeness because we are his image and likeness
Getting too heavy with the bible stuff.

It doesn't make sense to understand Buddhism as a permutation of Biblical religion. Seriously. You need to understand Buddhism on Buddhism terms. Otherwise, you are going to get really hurt.
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by The Cicada » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:16 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:01 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:04 pm
see we are made in his image and likeness because we are his image and likeness
Getting too heavy with the bible stuff.

It doesn't make sense to understand Buddhism as a permutation of Biblical religion. Seriously. You need to understand Buddhism on Buddhism terms. Otherwise, you are going to get really hurt.
Minobu, if the idea of some similarities between the Bible and Buddhism gives you the creeps, just dump the Biblical assumptions and try to understand Buddhism better. Don't beat yourself up like Job just because Brahma decided to go rub things in to hide his own incompetence.

The Buddha has the answers. His words are definitive.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:17 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:16 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:01 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:04 pm
see we are made in his image and likeness because we are his image and likeness
Getting too heavy with the bible stuff.

It doesn't make sense to understand Buddhism as a permutation of Biblical religion. Seriously. You need to understand Buddhism on Buddhism terms. Otherwise, you are going to get really hurt.
Minobu, if the idea of some similarities between the Bible and Buddhism gives you the creeps, just dump the Biblical assumptions and try to understand Buddhism better. Don't beat yourself up like Job just because Brahma decided to go rub things in to hide his own incompetence.

The Buddha has the answers. His words are definitive.
first up...i was brought up as an atheist in a totally, besides me father, Catholic hard core family.
i was drawn to buddhism because they never taught God anything .
i learned 30 years later that Lord Sakyamuni Buddha never mentioned or talked about a God the Creator , even though he lived in a totally God The Creator society, not unlike myself.


yesterday for the first time i realized we are manifestations of ???????>>>>> Original enlightenment??????>>>>>> Buddha......
but if i interject with judaic thought i got it wrong.....i know this.....i believe this....i want to understand this....


when i went on about broken bits...it was from the whole Taho Buddha being a Whole Buddha.. my mind sometimes runs faster than i can comprehend
...the thought we are manifested by Buddha led me to speculate and see that all sentients were in fact part and parcel to his Buddhahood...bits of him defiled or broken..every possible defilement in every single infinite aspect of Him manifests as this sentient being , which is part of Him that needs fixing....we think we are self but we are His Self...so when all these sentients are liberated He Becomes Like Taho Buddha >>>>A Whole Buddha...

i lost all contact with myself and saw myself as a broken bit of Buddha which is actually me....Buddha is me and when i figure it out i disappear into the Fix.


this is way out there stuff....this morning i think i might have gone into one of those dark rooms of mine that Q now knows happens....

thanks people for allowing me this medium to work it out....

i won't go into how this led me to see the Gakki as the preferred starting point by our Buddha....in this time realm...

*watches a crowd* >>> :techproblem:

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:29 pm

the alternate dark room is thus... :popcorn:

we are manifested , or are more like a cause of MyoHo RenGe Kyo...
We are MyoHo RenGe Kyo.
Buddhahood is when the realization really takes hold and you actually are a totally pure manifestation of MyoHo RenGe Kyo as a KayaBody..or in other words another cause of Myo Ho RenGe Kyo...

we are defiled...i don't know what we are yet...but i know i am defiled..AND...a manifestation of MyoHo RenGe Kyo or( i hate caps the whole one finger on a shift button....bleh) in other easy to type words > Original Enlightenment ...

When i get to understand what exactly is MyoHo RenGe Kyo / Original Enlightenment and what i am....i become an awakened Buddha..

by the way..we all are of the same manifestation and very close...we should not harm one and other for it's like masochistic which is sickness..
also the earth is of this manifestation and abusing it is masochistic , which is a sickness...

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:32 pm

it's not so much we are made from Original Enlightenment but are just a cause of it's being what it is.
shit happens.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:35 pm

by the way ...this is all down to my trying to understand Q...
i shall now refer to him as Dr Frankenstein ...

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:17 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:59 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:50 pm
The Buddha permeates hell and is able to manifest devilry (presumably to save hell dwellers?). He doesn't though (unless the purpose of the devilry is to save devils? This strikes me as contrived however).
What does it mean to "permeate hell"?

It's been a while since I thought about this Evil of the Buddha stuff and if you're game I'd like to think this through with someone who is familiar with Ziporyn et al.
This is completely off the top of my head. Perhaps it should be its own thread. Hopefully as we digress my contributions will improve in quality.

"Permeate" was me not wanting to be someone who says "interpenetrates" constantly, that is all. I suppose, to be more correct, I should have said that the Buddha mutually possesses the hell-dhātu in addition to 9 other dhātavaḥ.

On terms of the Buddha and the Devil/Evil, my current thinking along those lines is that it is similar to the discourse on the Tathāgata as a molten iron ball in the Mahāyānamahāparinirvāṇasūtra.

Tragically, I cannot find the exact quote at the time (being on my phone), but if others may forgive my paraphrasing, it goes 'something' like this:

The Tathāgata is not extinguished in parinirvāṇa like the heat of an iron ball when cast into cold water. Moreover, it is ignorance and kleśāḥ that are like the heat of that ball. When the molten iron ball is cast into the cold water, the heat is extinguished, and the indestructible vajra nature of the Tathāgata endures much like the iron, no longer molten, resting at the bottom of the pool. -Severe paraphrase

This is related to a śrāvaka discourse concerning the ultimate extinction of the Tathāgata. The Mahāyānamahaāparinirvāṇasūtra upends and invalidates that doctrine.

With this in mind, given that 'we are Buddhas', in whichever way, I think that we can look at the Tathāgata's entry into liberation, the entry of the molten iron ball into the cold water, as the 'going asleep' or the occultation of the heat/fire.

I think that this puts Ven Śr Zhìyǐ's comparisons between the evil-within-Buddha and the fire-within-bamboo into better perspective, for me at least, as it largely sidesteps the issue of theodicy.

That's just a few off-the-cuff thoughts from me though.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:22 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:17 pm
I think that we can look at the Tathāgata's entry into liberation, the entry of the molten iron ball into the cold water, as the 'going asleep' or the occultation of the heat/fire.

I think that this puts Ven Śr Zhìyǐ's comparisons between the evil-within-Buddha and the fire-within-bamboo into better perspective, for me at least, as it largely sidesteps the issue of theodicy.
There are a few quotes from the Venerable Ṭhānissaro's The Mind Like Fire Unbound that I should add to this to help contextualize.

Some writers, drawing on modern, everyday notions of fire, come to the conclusion that nibbāna implies extinction, as we feel that a fire goes out of existence when extinguished. Others, however, note that the Vedas — ancient Indian religious texts that predate Buddhism by many thousands of years — describe fire as immortal: Even when extinguished it simply goes into hiding, in a latent, diffused state, only to be reborn when a new fire is lit. These writers then assume that the Buddha accepted the Vedic theory in its entirety, and so maintain that nibbāna implies eternal existence.

The weakness of both these interpretations is that they do not take into account the way the Pali Canon describes (1) the workings of fire, (2) the limits beyond which no phenomenon may be described, and (3) the precise implications that the Buddha himself drew from his metaphor in light of (1) & (2). The purpose of this essay is to place this metaphor in its original context to show what it was and was not meant to imply.
(Ven Ācārya Ṭhānissaro, The Mind Like Fire Unbound, abstract)

It seems that Ven Śr Zhìyǐ's 'latent' fire in the bamboo is very similar to the 'latent-ization' of 'fire' that is nirvāṇa in some early śrāvaka literature. The Mahāyānamahāparinirvāṇasūtra, being a vaipulya of an EBT, may well use the same underpinning metaphysics concerning fire and latency.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:35 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:17 pm
The Tathāgata is not extinguished in parinirvāṇa like the heat of an iron ball when cast into cold water. Moreover, it is ignorance and kleśāḥ that are like the heat of that ball. When the molten iron ball is cast into the cold water, the heat is extinguished, and the indestructible vajra nature of the Tathāgata endures much like the iron, no longer molten, resting at the bottom of the pool. -Severe paraphrase
I found a more proper version, but without a cited translator. It is from the recension of Ven Fǎxiǎn rather than the more popular recension of Ven Dharmakṣema:

The Buddha-Tathagatas are not eternally extinguished in Nirvana like the heat of an iron ball that is quickly extinguished when cast into water. Moreover, it is thus: just as the heat of an iron ball is extinguished when thrown into water, the Tathagata is likewise; when the immeasurable mental afflictions have been extinguished, it is similar to when an iron ball is cast into water - although the heat is extinguished, the substance / nature of the iron remains. In that way, when the Tathagata has completely extinguished the fire of the mental afflictions that have been accumulated over countless aeons, the nature of the diamond Tathagata permanently endures - not transforming and not diminishing.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:13 pm

Minobu, we've been trying to get at Buddha without the source material of the Lotus School. You were introduced to this teaching through the Lotus School, and so, maybe it would help to get back to that material.

Remember the Ten Worlds?

Below, Zhiyi explains the Buddha Realm (of the Ten Reams) through the lens of the Ten Factors. Ten Factors we recite during Gongyo - Nyo ze so, nyo ze sho, nyo ze tai, nyo ze riki, nyo ze sa, nyo ze in, nyo ze en, nyo ze ka, nyo ze ho, nyo ze hommatsukukkyoto.

From Zhiyi's Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra - Fahua Hsuan-i, Tr. Swanson
The Vimalakirtinirdesa Sutra says, "All sentient beings without exception have the mark of bodhi-wisdom and do not need to attain it again." This [Buddha-nature as] the conditional cause [of Buddhahood] is the Buddha's "appearance" (so).

"Nature" is that which has it's point of reference internally. The [Buddha's] wisdom and vow is [inherently] existent and is never lost. This wisdom [of inherent Buddha-nature] as the complete cause [of Buddhahood] is the Buddha's "nature" (sho).

The inherently pure mind, [the Buddha-nature as] the direct cause [of Buddhahood] is the Buddha's "essence" (tai). These are the three tracks [of Reality].

"Power" (riki): the [Buddha's] power is so-called because he surpasses sravakas and pratyekabuddhas upon his first aspiration for enlightenment.

[The Buddha's] "activity" (sa) is the performance of the Four Universal Vows.

[The Buddha's] "cause" (in) is the grand adornment of wisdom [prajnaparamita].

[The Buddha's] "conditions" (en) are the grand adornment of virtues.

[The Buddha's] "result" (ka) is the repetitive result of the state of highest enlightenment in which each thought is integrated with the mind of great awakening.

[The Buddha's] "retribution" (ho) is the fruit of mahaparinirvana. The retributive result is complete endowment with all concentrations [samadhi], meditative states, virtues, and the severance [of all passions and delusions].

"The beginning and end both the same" (hommatsukukkyoto) [for the Buddha] means that the threefold truth of appearance, nature [and so forth] is not different that the ultimate threefold turth. Therefor they are called "the same". "The sameness of the truth of emptiness" means that inherently the suchness of sentient beings and the suchness of the Buddha is the same. The "sameness of the mundane truth [of conventional existence]" means that when sentient beings have not yet aroused aspiration for enlightenment, the Buddha has already prophesied their Buddhahood. The Buddha has already atteined enlightenment so he preaches concerning his deeds in his previous lives. Thus the mutual interexistence of the beginning and end is [the meaning of] the sameness of conventional existence. The "sameness of the middle" means that ordinary men and sages (Buddhas) are all [partaking in the same] aspects of reality.
From the footnotes to the above:
The three aspects of reality, which are called "tracks" because they are the order, rule law, or model of things as they truly are. The three are parallel to the three aspects of Buddha-nature. They are:

"The true nature of reality." The integrated, non-illusory, non-differentiated aspect of reality. This corresponds to the objective world and to the Buddha-nature as the direct cause of Buddhahood. Buddhahood is inherent in all sentient beings since they all participate in the true nature of reality as simultaneously empty of substantial Being yet conventionally existent.

"The illumination of wisdom." The function of wisdom in destroying dlusions and manifesting the true nature of reality. It corresponds to the aspect of Buddha-nature as the "complete cause" of Buddhahood, since the wisdom to realize Buddhahood is inherent in all sentient beings.

"The perfections of one's disposition." The practice undertaken ans which brings to perfection the inherent Buddha's wisdom. t corresponds to the aspect of Buddha-nature as practice, the conditional causes which bring to perfection the inherent Buddha-wisdom.
Buddhanature as the Direct Cause of Buddhahood refers to the way things really are - the "True Aspect". This corresponds to the Dharmakaya.

Buddhanature as the Complete Cause of Buddhahood refers to the wisdom possessed by all beings to understand the True Aspect. This corresponds to the Sambhogakaya.

Buddhanature as the Conditional Cause of Buddhahood refers to the capacity for activity of all beings to undertake the practice. This corresponds to the Nirmanakaya.

These Three aspects of Buddhanature also correspond to the Three Great Secret Laws - the Direct Cause of Buddhahood is the Gohonzon. The Complete Cause of Buddhahood is the Daimoku. The Conditional Cause of Buddhahood is the Kaidan, or place of practice.

That's probably a load of information there, so I'll stop.
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:15 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:35 pm
, it is similar to when an iron ball is cast into water - although the heat is extinguished, the substance / nature of the iron remains. In that way, when the Tathagata has completely extinguished the fire of the mental afflictions that have been accumulated over countless aeons, the nature of the diamond Tathagata permanently endures - not transforming and not diminishing.[/i]
is this the same
Minobu wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:29 pm

Buddhahood is when the realization really takes hold and you actually are a totally pure manifestation of MyoHo RenGe Kyo

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:21 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:22 pm
— describe fire as immortal: Even when extinguished it simply goes into hiding, in a latent, diffused state, only to be reborn when a new fire is lit.
The Vedic gods;
Agni the god of fire.
because there is Agni when you lite a match it flares up into fire.
The god is latent...they pray to gods to manifest their qualities...

Buddhist don't rely on gods because it is like making a deal rather than developing the capacity yourself and unlocking the power within.
Generally we look to non attachment and spend our time purifying our karmic bonds.


in the case of Lotus Buddhism the fastest way and most effective is to bring people to Lotus Buddhism so they too can drink from the well

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:35 pm

Continuing with the Threefold Buddha-Nature. To recap:

The Threefold Buddhanature corresponds to the first three of the Ten Factors -

Appearance - Conventional Truth/Pratitya Samutpada (Dependent Origination) - Conditional Cause - Nirmanakaya - Kaidan - Spacelike Immovable Precept

Nature - Absolute Truth/Emptiness (Sunyata) - Complete Cause - Sambhogakaya - Daimoku -Spacelike Immovable Wisdom

Essence - Middle Way - Direct Cause - Dharmakaya Gohonzon - Spacelike Immovable Samadhi-

-

Minobu, you keep asking what it means for the Buddha to be Eternal. The following is an extended quote from Zhiyi's Great Cessation and Contemplation (Mohezhikuan, Makashikan, Maha Samatha Vipasyana). This is the heart of the meditation he taught and which he practiced himself. The gist of it he describes as "inconceivable". What you find here is a definitive explanation within the limit of words.

When Nichiren instructs people to undertake Ichinen Sanzen meditation, if they are capable, this is the theoretical view we are supposed to contemplate. The Daimoku is the essence of this teaching, but when it is expanded, it is expanded on these lines. This is not short and it is not easy. It is Zhiyi's explanation on how to understand the real nature of your mind. It needs to be taken in as a whole and understood intuitively.

You will notice a couple of devices through which he expounds the view -

1. Nagarjuna's Tetralemma. For more on this see Mulamadhyamikakarika and Ta chih tu lun.
2. Four Siddhanta - the four methods by which the Buddha teaches dharma. This is based on that teaching as presented in the Ta chih tu lun.

Translated from the Chinese by Swanson:
[Thus] a single thought includes the ten dharma realms. A single dharma realm includes the [other] ten dharma realms, so there are one hundred dharma realms. One realm includes thirty types of worlds [that is, each of the ten dharma realms are included in each of the three types of worlds: the world of sentient beings, the world of the five skandhas, and various lands], multiplied by one hundred dharma realms. This results in the inclusion of three thousand types of worlds. These three thousand [worlds] exist in a single momentary thought.

If there is no thought, that is the end of the matter. If there is even an ephemeral thought, this includes three thousand [realms]. But we cannot say that the single thought has prior existence, and that all phenomena (sarva-dharma) exist later, nor can we say that all phenomena have prior existence, and that the single thought exists later. For example, it is like a thing that changes through eight aspects [of arising, abiding, changing, and perishing]; it is not that things exist prior to these aspects and are caused to change through them, nor do the aspects exist prior to things and are caused to change through them [but things and their passing through arising, abiding, and so forth occur together]. There can be no priority nor posteriority [since it occurs simultaneously]. It is just that things are said to change by passing through these aspects, and these aspects are said to occur to things.

Thoughts are also like this. If all phenomena arise from a single thought, this is a horizontal [relationship]; if a thought in one moment encompasses all phenomena, this is a vertical [relationship]. But these are neither [merely] vertical nor [merely] horizontal. It is just that thought is all phenomena, and all phenomena is thought. Therefore [the relationship of thought and phenomena, the mind and objects] is neither [merely] vertical nor horizontal; they are neither the same nor different. This is mysterious and sublime, profound in the extreme, cannot be grasped conceptually, and cannot be verbalized. This is what is called [contemplating] “objects as inconceivable.” This is the meaning here.

Question: The arising of thoughts is necessarily dependent on certain [objective] conditions. If so, are the three thousand dharmas included in the thoughts, included in the conditions [that is, the objects], included in both [thoughts and their objects], or included separate from [thoughts and their objects]? If they are included in the thoughts [themselves], then thoughts arise [by themselves] and do not need [objective] conditions[, which is obviously impossible]. If they are included in the [objective] conditions, then, being included in the objects themselves, there is no involvement with mental activity[, which is also impossible]. If they are included together, that means that when they are not yet together then neither side has [the three thousand dharmas], but then how can [thoughts and their objects] have [the three thousand dharmas] when they are together? If they are included separate from [thoughts and their objects,] then [the three thousand dharmas] are already separate from thoughts and their objects; but then how can they suddenly be included in thoughts [as in the teaching of the three thousand realms in a single thought]? None of the four options are obtainable. What does it mean, then, to say that the three thousand dharmas are included [in one momentary thought]?

Answer: Scholars of the Treatise on the Ten Stages (Ti-lun) say that all understanding and ignorance, truth and delusion are dependent on the support of the nature of dharmas (dharmatā). The nature of dharmas supports truth and delusion, and truth and delusion depend on the nature of dharmas. The Summary of the Great Vehicle (She-lun) says that the nature of dharmas is not defiled by delusion, nor purified by truth. Therefore the nature of dharmas neither supports [delusion] nor is dependent [on the truth]. The ālaya-consciousness is that which supports and that on which things are dependent, and which gathers and supports all the seeds of undying ignorance. If we follow the scholars of the Ti-lun, we would say that all dharmas are included in the mind; if we follow the scholars of the She-lun, we would say that all dharmas are included in [objective] conditions.

These two kinds of scholars each represent one extreme. If [following the Ti-lun scholars] we say that the nature of dharmas gives birth to all dharmas, then this “nature of dharmas” [is something that] is neither mind nor [objective] conditions[, but this is impossible because there is nothing outside of thoughts and their objects]. If we say that all dharmas arise from the mind because [the nature of dharmas] is not thoughts, then it follows also that all dharmas arise from [objective] conditions because [the nature of dharmas] is not [objective] conditions[, but this doesn’t make any sense]. How, then, can you arbitrarily say that the nature of dharmas is the support of truth and delusion? If [following the She-lun scholars] we say that the nature of dharmas is not the support [of thoughts and their objects], but that the ālaya-consciousness is, then this implies that there is an ālaya-consciousness that supports [thoughts and their objects] but is outside of and separate from the nature of dharmas, that is, has no relation with the nature of dharmas. [But this is impossible.] If it is said that the nature of dharmas is not separate from the ālaya-consciousness, then what is supported by the ālaya-consciousness is also supported by the nature of dharmas. How, then, can you arbitrarily say that the ālaya-consciousness is the support [of mind and its objects]? This is contrary to what is in the sūtras. A sūtra says, “Neither internal, nor external, nor somewhere in between, nor always existing on its own.” It is also [different from the teaching of] Nāgārjuna. Nāgārjuna says, “Dharmas do not arise from themselves, and they do not arise from another, nor together, nor without causes.”

Let us examine the issue by using an analogy. Do you have a dream because of mental functions, or have a dream by sleeping, or have a dream by the coming together of sleep and mental functions, or have a dream by being separate from mental functions and sleeping? [None of these options are acceptable.] If you say that you ha a dream because of mental functions, then you could have a dream without sleeping[, but in fact you cannot]. If you say that you have a dream by sleeping, then a dead person is “sleeping” and should have a dream[, but he does not]. If you say that you have a dream by the coming together of sleep and mental functions, then why is it that some people do not dream even when they are sleeping? Also, if having a dream is part of both sleep and mental functions, and you have a dream when the two factors come together, then in fact each factor does not include dreaming, and you cannot [dream] when they come together. If you say that you have a dream separate from mental functions and separate from sleep, then since empty space is separate from these two factors [of mental functions and sleep], it should always involve dreaming. By examining dreams with the tetralemma we see that none [of the options] are obtainable. How, then, do we see all sorts of things in a dream when we sleep? Here “mental functions” are analogous to the nature of dharmas and “sleep” is analogous to the ālaya-consciousness. How can you lean to one side and say that either “the nature of dharmas” or “the ālaya-consciousness” gives rise to all dharmas? You should know that the mental functions are unobtainable through the four options [of the tetralemma]; by examining the three thousand dharmas [with the tetralemma we see that they] also are unobtainable. We thus see that horizontally, through the tetralemma, the arising of the three thousand dharmas is unobtainable.

Then [to examine the matter in a vertical fashion], do the three thousand dharmas arise from the extinction of one momentary thought? The extinction of a thought cannot give rise to one dharma, so how can it give rise to three thousand dharmas? Do the three thousand dharmas arise from both the extinction and non-extinction of a thought? But the nature of extinction and non-extinction are different, like water and fire; the two cannot stand together. Then how can this give rise to three thousand dharmas? Do the three thousand dharmas arise from neither the extinction nor the nonextinction of a thought? But [the option of] “neither extinction nor nonextinction” does not provide the power nor the place 非能非所 [to give rise to even one dharma], so how can there be the power or place to give rise to three thousand dharmas?

Thus we see that the three thousand dharmas are unobtainable if we seek them both in a horizontal and vertical fashion. The three thousand dharmas are also unobtainable if we seek them in a neither horizontal nor vertical fashion. This is beyond words; discursive thought is inadequate. Therefore they are called “inconceivable objects.”

The Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra says, “the arising of arising is unexplainable; the non-arising of arising is unexplainable; the arising of non-arising is unexplainable; the non-arising of non-arising is unexplainable.” This is the meaning [of what I am trying to say] here. You should know from the perspective of the supreme [truth], that even a single dharma cannot be obtained, how much less so three thousand dharmas. From the perspective of the mundane truth, one thought contains immeasurable dharmas, not to mention three thousand dharmas. As the Buddha said to the nun when she asked, “Is ignorance internal?” [he answered,] “No.” “Is it external?” “No.” “Is it both internal and external?” “No.” “Is it neither internal nor external?” “No?” Then the Buddha said, “This is the way it is…” Nāgārjuna said, “[dharmas] arise not from themselves, nor from others, nor together, nor without cause.” The Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra says, “The arising of arising is unexplainable, and so forth, to the non-arising of non-arising is unexplainable. [Arising] due to causes and conditions is also unexplainable—this refers to the causes and conditions of the four siddhānta. Although the four options of the tetralemma are hidden [from comprehension] and quiescent, [the Buddha,] with compassion and sympathy, teaches about that which has no name or form by using conventional words and forms.

If you use the worldly [method] to teach the inclusion of all dharmas in a thought, those who hear will rejoice. For example, to say that “there are no separate dharmas in the triple world which are apart from those created by the mind” is this kind of text. Or, if you teach that all dharmas arise from [objective] conditions, those who hear will rejoice. For example, sayings such as “the five [sensual] desires lead people to fall into evil destinies” or “a good friend is a great cause and condition; that is, such a person can transform and guide you to attain the insight of a Buddha” are this kind of text. Or, if you say that all dharmas arise together along with their causes [that is, thoughts] and [objective] conditions, those who hear will rejoice. For example, to say “If mercury is blended with true gold, you are able to mold images of various forms” is such a text. Or, if you say that all dharmas arise separate from [objective] conditions, those who hear will rejoice. For example, to say that “the arising of twelvefold causes and conditions is not created by the Buddha, nor created by gods, people, or asura, but through its own nature” is such a text. Such are the four options of the tetralemma for the “worldly siddhānta” in teaching that the three thousand dharmas arise in the mind.

What about the “individual method”? Sayings [on the role of the mind] such as “The Buddha Dharma is like the sea; only those who have faith are able to enter,” “faith is the source of the way and the mother of virtue; all good dharmas arise from it,” and “you should arouse only the thoughts of (anuttarasamyak) saṃbodhi, and then you will be endowed with [the upholding of] all the precepts of prohibition of the home-departed-one,” are texts that arouse faith in those [individuals] who hear them. Or, there is the teaching that all dharmas arise through conditional objects. The saying that “if you do not meet a Buddha, then you will fall into a hell of suffering for immeasurable eons; by seeing a Buddha you can attain a rootless faith, like an eraṇḍa plant giving rise to sandalwood,” this gives birth to faith for those [individuals] who hear it. Or, there is the teaching that all dharmas arise through the merging [of thoughts and their conditions]. The sayings that “when the waters of the mind are clear and pure, the form of the jewel manifests itself ” and “with the fundamental power of compassionate goodness, you can see things as they are,” are texts that arouse faith in those who hear them. Or, there is the teaching that all dharmas arise separate from [thoughts and their conditional objects]. The saying that “it is not through internal contemplation that you attain this wisdom, and so forth through [the idea that] it is not through either internal or external contemplation that you attain this wisdom; if you have any attachments, then you cannot attain even the small faith of Śrenika, much less abandon mistaken [views] and realize the right,” is a text that arouses faith in those who hear it. Such are the four options of the tetralemma for the “individual siddhānta” in teaching that the three thousand dharmas arise in the mind.

What about the “therapeutic method”? [First, there is] the teaching that all evil is healed by the mind. The saying that “the attainment of single mindedness extinguishes a myriad of mistaken [views]” is such a text. Or, there is the teaching that all evil is healed by objective conditions. The saying “By hearing of the great, supreme light of wisdom, the mind becomes concentrated and is immobile like the earth,” is such a text. Or, there is the teaching that all evil is healed by a combination of causes [thoughts] and [objective] conditions. The saying “part arises from your own conceptual thinking, and part comes from your teacher,” is such a text. Or, there is the teaching that all evil is healed separate from [thoughts and their objects]. [The saying] “I did not [actually] attain all dharmas when I sat on the seat of enlightenment, but I lured and saved all [as if] deceiving a small child with an empty fist” is such a text. Such are [the four options of the tetralemma for] the “therapeutic siddhānta” for the teaching that all evil is destroyed by the mind.

What about the “supreme method”? [First, the teaching that] you attain insight into the principle [of the truth] with the mind is like the saying that “When the mind is opened and you understand, then you attain the way immediately.” Or, the teaching that you attain insight into the truth through conditional objects is like the saying “Anyone who hears this will attain ultimate and perfect wisdom.” Or, the teaching that you attain the path by a merging of causes [thoughts] and [objective] conditionals is like [the analogy of] the nimble horse that advances on the right road just by catching a glimpse of the whip. Or, the teaching that you are able to attain insight into the truth separate from [thoughts and their objects] is like the saying “Not attaining is attaining, and having attained is not attaining.” Such are the four options of the “supreme (siddhānta)” for insight into truth [as emptiness]. How much more so for [the idea of] three thousand dharmas that arise in a [single] thought?

The gist of the Buddha’s [teaching] is to exhaust and purify, and does not involve [merely the four options of] cause [thought], conditional objects, both, or neither; the worldly truth is [taught on the basis of] the supreme truth.

Again, any and all of the four options can [and should] be taught [in terms of the mundane truth]: you could assert cause [thought], conditional objects, both, or neither. If you attempt to explain [the whiteness of] milk to a blind person, saying it is like [the whiteness of] a shell, or like rice powder, or like snow, or like a [white] crane, the blind person will hear this explanation and reach [a certain] understanding of milk. [This illustrates that] the worldly truth is indivisible from the supreme truth [and vice versa].

Thus it should be known that “expounding throughout the day is [the same as] not expounding throughout the day, and not expounding throughout the day is [the same as] expounding throughout the day.” At all times both extremes are covered, and at all times both extremes are illumined, establishing while deconstructing, and deconstructing while establishing. [The teachings of] the sūtras and treatises are all like this.

Vasubandhu and Nāgārjuna internally had insight and were enlightened, and externally each responded appropriately to the needs of their times on the basis of tentative means. However, some [Buddhist] teachers have a one-sided understanding, and some scholars are carelessly attached [to their own limited interpretation], so that they [argue and fight uselessly,] like shooting arrows at a rock. They each maintain one extreme, and thus pervert the noble path. If you obtain this meaning, then you comprehend both the impossibility of verbal expression and the necessity of verbal expression.

If you were to respond appropriately [in accordance with tentative expressions], you should say that when ignorance shapes the dharmas according to Dharma-nature (dharmatā), then all dharmas arise as all things that happen in a dream are a result of the mind in a state of sleep. The merging of the mind with external conditions results in the three types of worlds [of the five skandhas, sentient beings, and various lands], and thus the three thousand [internal and external] features [of the three thousand realms] arise from the mind. A single internal feature is small or few, but it is not nothing; ignorance is multitudinous, but has no [substantial] Being. Why? If we focus on one thing as [an example of] many, the many are not many; if we focus on many as one, this one is not a few. Therefore these thoughts are called inconceivable objects.

If it is understood that one thought is all thoughts, all thoughts are one thought, and these are neither one nor all, one skandha is all skandhas, all skandhas are one skandha, and these are neither one nor all; one sense entrance (āyatana) is all senses entrances, all sense entrances are one sense entrance, and these are neither one nor all; one sense realm (dhātu) is all sense realms, all sense realms is one sense realm, and these are neither one nor all; one sentient being is all sentient beings, all sentient beings are one sentient being, and these are neither one nor all; one land is all lands, all lands are one land, and these are neither one nor all; one mark is all marks, all marks are one mark, and these are neither one nor all; [and so forth for the other categories of the ten suchlike characteristics] up to and including one ultimate is all ultimates, all ultimates are one ultimate, and these are neither one nor all. Everything and anything that we experience; all are inconceivable objects.
My take (and this will sound like what you might have learned from the little oriental who taught you to chant): In a sense, the teaching of ichinen sanzen is explaining that you abide in a house of mirrors in which everything you see is you (the Mind), including the medium in which you see your reflection (the environment). The hell you see is a reflection of your life condition of suffering. The preta are a reflection of the life condition of craving... The Buddha and his pure land is likewise a reflection of your Buddhanature.

With regard to the "Eternal Buddha," if you are here, so is the Buddha, along with the three thousand.

The Buddha you see always attained awakening in the distant past because the Buddha you see is the present adornment of Enlightenment. As the Buddha says in the Lotus Sutra -
To sum up, in this sutra I have clearly revealed and taught all the teachings of the Tathāgata, all the transcendent powers of the Tathāgata, all the treasure houses of the hidden essence of the Tathāgata, and all the profound aspects of the Tathāgata.
When you see the Buddha's appearance (here, as the Lotus Sutra), you see all of his teachings, all of his powers, all of his essence, his real aspect - all of which are the culmination of, conventionally speaking, eons of practice. What you see is actually a reflection of your own Buddhanature. If you did not have that Buddhanature, you could not see the Buddha.

Conventionally, you will always be looking on the Buddha as other; when you awaken, however, and understand that Buddha is actually you, that the Buddha's mandala is your own mind, understanding that "you" are not the "you" you think you are, you awaken that "you" are the three thousand, the three thousand is "you", without hierarchy. That while the Buddha displays birth, awakening, teaching and parinirvana in India, you, in the place you find yourself, display the struggle for enlightenment that the Buddha has described as his own past. The Buddha is you telling this story in some future time and place. Because you are confused by the intrinsic nature of your own mind, thinking that what appears is something outside of you, all caught up in the particulars of your time and place, you don't see reality. To wake you from your stupor the Buddha addresses you, "Ajita, you are the eyes of the world!"
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:12 pm

ok lots and lotso...
but weird.just yesterday..i was going to ask in a new thread ...
who is this me or who are you..what are we anyway
seems you beat me to the thread

Again !!!!!

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:50 pm

in all fairness i have not read the yellow ZhiYi part.
but this came to me just now...from
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:35 pm


Conventionally, you will always be looking on the Buddha as other; when you awaken, however, and understand that Buddha is actually you, that the Buddha's mandala is your own mind, understanding that "you" are not the "you" you think you are, you awaken that "you" are the three thousand, the three thousand is "you", without hierarchy. That while the Buddha displays birth, awakening, teaching and parinirvana in India, you, in the place you find yourself, display the struggle for enlightenment that the Buddha has described as his own past. The Buddha is you telling this story in some future time and place. Because you are confused by the intrinsic nature of your own mind, thinking that what appears is something outside of you, all caught up in the particulars of your time and place, you don't see reality. To wake you from your stupor the Buddha addresses you, "Ajita, you are the eyes of the world!"
it's like this...
if you think you really are Sakyamuni Buddha then you end up with what i wrote the other day and like you are broken bits /defiled bits of left over sakyamuni /lol...needs repair...to become the whole Buddha...

NONSENSE...wrongo....
why?
but we are Buddha ....
so one has to get back to the middle way...that in between being existence and nonexistence at the same time...a little bit of both to intuit what we are..the whole emptiness thing is just to bring you to the view...create a running program behind the scenes so you can see it clearly..

So the fact is, not in some far off distant future are you a three bodied Buddha with the beautiful Sambhogakaya sitting in a pure land ..emmitting light rays and doing Buddha stuff....but it is happening now....and i am just that part that is going to /about to /near the time to/...awaken to it and become what we are anyway...buddhas...but the middle way ..always purring in the background...makes me another buddha....for there is no you and yet there is a you...there is no other buddha and yet there is another buddha....


ok so what part is totally off...insecurity just crept in...needs one of these :consoling:

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Minobu » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:59 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:50 pm
i
it's like this...
if you think you really are Sakyamuni Buddha then you end up with what i wrote the other day and like you are broken bits /defiled bits of left over sakyamuni /lol...needs repair...to become the whole Buddha...

NONSENSE...wrongo....
why?
because no matter what time line you want to be in...Lord Sakyamuni appeared as a Nirmanakaya for me to be able to learn from...
all my time lines...from my Sambhogakaya Body to my Nirmanakaya body ..Lord Sakyamuni will always be the one who left me, and led me to the Lotus sutra.

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:09 pm

In the parable of the Rich Man and his Poor Son, the son, who has forgotten who he is, is hired by the Rich Man (his father) to scrub toilets. The son is paid a few pennies for his menial work. Little does he realize, he's actually being paid out of his own treasury. When the son is ready, the Rich Man announces, "This is my son."

Nothing has changed. The son still was once a toilet scrubber. He was also all along, heir to the rich man's estate.

When the lights are off, we don't see the furniture. When the lights are turned on, we see the furniture and can now use it.

"When you hear of the one true bodhi-wisdom... —whether from a teacher or from [reading] the scripture scrolls)—attain penetrating understanding within [the limits of] words, and know that all dharmas are the Buddha Dharma, this is bodhi[citta] as indivisible with words."
Zhiyi, Mohezhikuan
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:12 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:59 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:50 pm
i
it's like this...
if you think you really are Sakyamuni Buddha then you end up with what i wrote the other day and like you are broken bits /defiled bits of left over sakyamuni /lol...needs repair...to become the whole Buddha...

NONSENSE...wrongo....
why?
because no matter what time line you want to be in...Lord Sakyamuni appeared as a Nirmanakaya for me to be able to learn from...
all my time lines...from my Sambhogakaya Body to my Nirmanakaya body ..Lord Sakyamuni will always be the one who left me, and led me to the Lotus sutra.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Queequeg
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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:30 pm

Remember these terms?

shikishinfuni - oneness of mind and body

eshofuni - oneness of self and environment
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: Hongaku (Original Enlightenment) versus Hongaku Shiso (Medieval Tendai Original Enlightenment)

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:25 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:59 pm
Lord Sakyamuni will always be the one who left me, and led me to the Lotus sutra.
That's what I get out of it. :shrug:
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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