Shakabuku Woes

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Queequeg
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:58 pm

DGA wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:31 pm
I think you and Malcolm are closer than you might think. See below, the bolded part:

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:10 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:02 pm
Yeah, Malcolm. I get what you are saying. It still doesn't add up to an answer.
Sure it does. Karma is unerring.

One cannot convert people to the Dharma. One can only provide an opportunity for them to hear it, if they so choose. That is all the Buddha did, and that is all we can do as well. If they have the merit to follow the Dharma, they will, and there is virtually nothing we need to do from our side other than make it available.
How is that not "the particular circumstances of the time"?
Sure. I think there is more flexibility on my end than Malcolm's. It might be more appropriate for you to address him.

"First, there seems to be a notion among Buddhists that active propagation is not a Buddhist thing to do. That instead, Buddha dharma should spread passively - like osmosis. I think this is incorrect."

Malcolm came out confirming the propriety of the passive method, stating that it is in fact correct. It's not that I think the passive approach is incorrect, but limiting to the passive approach is incorrect.

For me, providing an opportunity can encompass more engagement, more action. Malcolm has made clear on other occasions that he disagrees.
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:19 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:58 pm
DGA wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:31 pm
I think you and Malcolm are closer than you might think. See below, the bolded part:

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:10 pm


Sure it does. Karma is unerring.

One cannot convert people to the Dharma. One can only provide an opportunity for them to hear it, if they so choose. That is all the Buddha did, and that is all we can do as well. If they have the merit to follow the Dharma, they will, and there is virtually nothing we need to do from our side other than make it available.
How is that not "the particular circumstances of the time"?
Sure. I think there is more flexibility on my end than Malcolm's. It might be more appropriate for you to address him.

"First, there seems to be a notion among Buddhists that active propagation is not a Buddhist thing to do. That instead, Buddha dharma should spread passively - like osmosis. I think this is incorrect."

Malcolm came out confirming the propriety of the passive method, stating that it is in fact correct. It's not that I think the passive approach is incorrect, but limiting to the passive approach is incorrect.

For me, providing an opportunity can encompass more engagement, more action. Malcolm has made clear on other occasions that he disagrees.

The Dharma is like a wishfulfilling gem. Wishfulfilling gems must be found, they do not advertise, other than by shining rather more brightly than other gems.
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:37 pm

yes indeed merit plays a part for those on the path .having produced merit one meets the dharma....but at some time they were not on the path and somewhere someone planted a seed that eventually ripens.
merit produced by planting the seed of dharma is far superior than merit produced by helping little old ladies cross the street for a gazillion lifetimes.

then we come to the fact we are in the defiled age, where all of the Buddha's teachings have lost their power to lead people to Buddhahood except the Lotus Sutra as explained in the Lotus sutra when the degenerative age comes into being.

we have a saying in Lotus Buddhism...Before the degenerative age and at the start of Lord shakyamuni appearance on earth was the age of harvest...
those bodhisattvas who for eons were under the tutelage of Lord shakyamuni Buddha with direct contact and were taught in such a way by Lord sakyamuni buddha that they attained Buddhahood...once the degenerative age kicks in...the harvest was complete.they all attained their goal.....the teachings left over are for lack of better words...hanger oners...they left with stuff like you get taught that when they die stuff will happen...none attain enlightenment in the flesh...it's all over...

except for the false belief in harvest teachings are still around, but have lost their power to the point only a promise of enlightenment after death or a pure land revival meeting takes place somewhere when you die......wrong time and place in other words.

The Lotus sutra is different for it teaches the sentients that were not under the guise of Lord Buddha directly and were in his Nirmanakaya presence
find the path through the teaching of the Lotus sutra......
so yeah Malcolm even is now on the correct path...he knows this...and i predict he will one day take up the teaching and finally enter the correct stream for the time and place as a sentient being he is....welcome Malcolm ...

the degenerate times are here..and only the Lotus sutra will lead to Buddhahood. as taught by Lord Sakyamuni Buddha

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:46 pm

there are a plethora of teachings on earth right now...all claiming to be the real deal and will lead to Buddhahood 100%..as stated recently by a member..
And yet The Lotus Sutra is the Sutra for the degenerative times....so poisoned are they by the false teachings they do not see the ox they are riding.

they cannot , as they tried with Master Nichiren shonin , to disclaim this...the masters of the Lotus Sutra know this and teach this...

Dem's Da rules
:sage: :rules:

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:50 pm

I think Shoju is not effective or the right thing on Dharma Wheel
Here ,,,Shakubuku is the way to Kosen Rufu..
the Gate is open

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:55 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:37 pm
the degenerate times are here..and only the Lotus sutra will lead to Buddhahood. as taught by Lord Sakyamuni Buddha
On the contrary, only direct perception of dharmatā leads to buddhahood has taught by the Buddha. Everything else is just intellectual analysis.
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:19 pm
The Dharma is like a wishfulfilling gem. Wishfulfilling gems must be found, they do not advertise, other than by shining rather more brightly than other gems.
And when the shining takes the form of the Buddha setting out to turn the wheel, then it takes the form of the Buddha setting out to turn the wheel, which is a decision to take action (even if that decision is all part of a show the Buddha puts on.) Similarly, a bodhisattva or even an ordinary person who conveys merely a line of Dharma for others.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:55 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:37 pm
the degenerate times are here..and only the Lotus sutra will lead to Buddhahood. as taught by Lord Sakyamuni Buddha
On the contrary, only direct perception of dharmatā leads to buddhahood has taught by the Buddha. Everything else is just intellectual analysis.
You are speaking from texts that no longer can lead to Buddhahood ...The Lotus Sutra teaches this very thing..

you are part of the collective sentients in the degenerative times...even the physiology of your spiritual body no longer produces what ancient text teach.

the methodology is not of this time...

when Lord Buddha Maitreya comes a whole other teaching will go into play leaving all the others incapable of leading that batch of sentients...

it's is just the way it is...hanging on to yesterdays teachings when The very Teacher of those Teachings taught they would be useless in the degenerative times....is lame/...

you can quote a gazillion things prior to the degenerative times...it will do no good...
You know how enlightened you really are malcolm...be honest with yourself...you are waiting to die to see...

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:55 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:37 pm
the degenerate times are here..and only the Lotus sutra will lead to Buddhahood. as taught by Lord Sakyamuni Buddha
On the contrary, only direct perception of dharmatā leads to buddhahood has taught by the Buddha. Everything else is just intellectual analysis.
Perceiving the Lotus is Perceiving the real. Some perceive it more clearly than others. Most of us are utterly confused about it. Does not mean we are not perceiving it.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Virgo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:32 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:15 pm

You know how enlightened you really are malcolm...be honest with yourself...you are waiting to die to see...
What is this supposed to mean? It is unclear.

Kevin

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:39 pm

Virgo wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:32 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:15 pm

You know how enlightened you really are malcolm...be honest with yourself...you are waiting to die to see...
What is this supposed to mean?

Kevin
ahh brought in your budeh malcolm...roflmao...
when asked about enlightenment he guarantees it 100% at death if you practice dzogchen...
this to me is despicable...
then we have people preaching a few mantras of nembutsu and you get a free ride into the pure land..
this to me is despicable..

it's preying on the weak and needy...lies...

it ain't that easy to go there when you are actually in the presence of a Nirmanakaya...

it takes eons of practice ...
so now they sell instant 100% enlightenment and pure land AT DEATH !!!!

ban me what ever is your fun...delete this and say you know what i am saying and it is wrong..knock yourself out...

but i am not going to apologize in front of con in a Shakubuku thread .

It is my duty to stand up to the fairy tales...

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by DGA » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:44 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:39 pm
Virgo wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:32 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:15 pm

You know how enlightened you really are malcolm...be honest with yourself...you are waiting to die to see...
What is this supposed to mean?

Kevin
ahh brought in your budeh malcolm...roflmao...
when asked about enlightenment he guarantees it 100% at death if you practice dzogchen...
this to me is despicable...
then we have people preaching a few mantras of nembutsu and you get a free ride into the pure land..
this to me is despicable..

it's preying on the weak and needy...lies...

it ain't that easy to go there when you are actually in the presence of a Nirmanakaya...

it takes eons of practice ...
so now they sell instant 100% enlightenment and pure land AT DEATH !!!!

ban me what ever is your fun...delete this and say you know what i am saying and it is wrong..knock yourself out...

but i am not going to apologize in front of con in a Shakubuku thread .

It is my duty to stand up to the fairy tales...
Useful context:

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=26871&start=20#p413697

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Virgo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:45 pm

ban me what ever is your fun...delete this and say you know what i am saying and it is wrong..knock yourself out...
I am not going to delete it or ban you Minobu. Your phrasing was simply terse and I could not understand what you meant by it.

You have some interesting ideas. I hope it leads to good discussion. You might get a better response out of it though, if you don't word it confrontationaly.

Kevin

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Virgo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:48 pm

DGA wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:44 pm

Useful context:

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=26871&start=20#p413697
Thank you DGA.

Kevin

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:49 pm

Virgo wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:45 pm
I am not going to delete it or ban you Minobu. Your phrasing was simply terse and I could not understand what you meant by it.

You have some interesting ideas. I hope it leads to good discussion. You might get a better response out of it though, if you don't word it confrontationaly.

Kevin
yeah well look up shakubuku...
it means break and subdue...
I'm just getting started....lol...
sorry for getting into character


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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:50 pm

DGA wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:44 pm


Useful context:

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=26871&start=20#p413697
you never answered me there..

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Virgo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:52 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:49 pm

yeah well look up shakubuku...
it means break and subdue...
I know what shakubuku means. I have read all of Nichiren's Gosho.

But being "forceful" or very determined to convert someone, doesn't mean confrontational, what do you think?

Kevin

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:00 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:12 pm
And when the shining takes the form of the Buddha setting out to turn the wheel, then it takes the form of the Buddha setting out to turn the wheel, which is a decision to take action (even if that decision is all part of a show the Buddha puts on.) Similarly, a bodhisattva or even an ordinary person who conveys merely a line of Dharma for others.
Wishfulfilling gems don't take actions or make decisions, they mere respond spontaneously to the wishes of others. So it is with buddhas.
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The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:06 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:55 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:37 pm
the degenerate times are here..and only the Lotus sutra will lead to Buddhahood. as taught by Lord Sakyamuni Buddha
On the contrary, only direct perception of dharmatā leads to buddhahood has taught by the Buddha. Everything else is just intellectual analysis.
You are speaking from texts that no longer can lead to Buddhahood
No, I am speaking from the point of view of the intimate instruction that does not arise from any scripture about the result that does not arise from a cause that is the buddhahood that does not arise from the mind.

But, far be it from me to influence you in any way.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:07 pm

Virgo wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:52 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:49 pm

yeah well look up shakubuku...
it means break and subdue...
I know what shakubuku means. I have read all of Nichiren's Gosho that are in English translation.

But being "forceful" or very determined to convert someone, doesn't mean confrontational, what do you think?

Kevin
ok so like seriously..
i don;t do this to everyday people...and it's the first time where i have gone full throttle here..

i got in hot water for being flabbergasted at the fact people buy into pure land ...i was told not to talk like that and some threads i'm modded in before they get posted. you know that..i can't get stuff posted in tibetan threads without waiting for it to go beyond it's shelf life...so i don;t go there...pure land ...i feel like i'm telling kids there is no santa claus ...so i stay away...

seriously i think they thought i was game playing...but i really thought people were well past that and knew it was a gimmick...

not to say i do not believe in pure lands...

ok so is that confrontational...or just sheer honesty....
in real life i have no filters...i'm known for it...and yet i'm extremely popular in my neighborhood...everyone wants to give me free stuff at stores...for real...i'm a buddhist and a nice guy...i swear .....

but here i find myself with people that are well over my mental capacity and really educated and yet ...they ask me to be less confrontational..
i mean i'm sorry i am not playing with anything over a grade nine education so my grammar sucks...and my mind..i'm a buisness man so i know people...my mind is not anywhere near as smart and clever as some here....
so like what you label confrontational...is just a street guy saying his thing...grow some!
sheeeesh...

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