Shakabuku Woes

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Minobu
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:06 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:55 pm


On the contrary, only direct perception of dharmatā leads to buddhahood has taught by the Buddha. Everything else is just intellectual analysis.
You are speaking from texts that no longer can lead to Buddhahood
No, I am speaking from the point of view of the intimate instruction that does not arise from any scripture about the result that does not arise from a cause that is the buddhahood that does not arise from the mind.

But, far be it from me to influence you in any way.
ahh like you said
Everything else is just intellectual analysis.
or more like some thing sold in the Gompa...
so like you have a good thing going for ya...ya get to ignore scripture...and make tons of dosh ...and oh the ego feed...selling death bed enlightenment..give me a break dude...

it no longer is the time or place for this stuff malcolm...it doesn't really lead these people to Buddhahood ...
they are, like you , not going to the pure lands just yet or in the near future and are lost in samsara...you might think you are above all that but according to the Lotus Sutra you are lost in a degenrative time when all other teachings of the Buddha are like poisin medicine off it's shelf life..

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Virgo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:15 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:07 pm

but here i find myself with people that are well over my mental capacity and really educated and yet ...they ask me to be less confrontational..
i mean i'm sorry i am not playing with anything over a grade nine education so my grammar sucks...and my mind..i'm a buisness man so i know people...my mind is not anywhere near as smart and clever as some here....
so like what you label confrontational...is just a street guy saying his thing...grow some!
sheeeesh...
Your online now Minobu and your tone and facial expressions and so forth don't come accross in this medium.

Kevin

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:16 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:12 pm

it no longer is the time or place for this stuff malcolm...it doesn't really lead these people to Buddhahood ...
Of course it does. Those people of highest capacity will attain buddhahood in this life; if they are a bit lazy, then in the bardo; and if they are lazier still, then in a natural nirmanakāya buddhafield.

But there is no buddhahood through vehicles of intellectual analysis or based on words written down on paper. The real sūtra has no letters. True buddhahood does not come from mind. The real result has no cause.
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:16 pm
But there is no buddhahood through vehicles of intellectual analysis or based on words written down on paper. The real sūtra has no letters. True buddhahood does not come from mind. The real result has no cause.
I agree with this with caveats: that the real sutra is also not exclusive of letters; if we talk about result, we must talk about cause; unless we are using the word "result" only figuratively.
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:52 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:47 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:16 pm
But there is no buddhahood through vehicles of intellectual analysis or based on words written down on paper. The real sūtra has no letters. True buddhahood does not come from mind. The real result has no cause.
I agree with this with caveats: that the real sutra is also not exclusive of letters;
It's exclusive of letters. Sūtra means "thread." The "thread" under discussion here is the nature of the mind, this is the buddhahood that does not come from mind; as it has never been produced, it is the result without a cause.

This nature of the mind will never be discovered by reading books, any book. Even the Lotus Sutra. The White Lotus of the True Dharma is not a book and is not contained in letters.
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:59 pm

Virgo wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:52 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:49 pm

yeah well look up shakubuku...
it means break and subdue...
I know what shakubuku means. I have read all of Nichiren's Gosho.

But being "forceful" or very determined to convert someone, doesn't mean confrontational, what do you think?

Kevin
A discussion on the meaning of shakubuku and shoju
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:15 pm

Also a note - shakubuku and all, lets please remember to be courteous and friendly.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Virgo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:18 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:59 pm

A discussion on the meaning of shakubuku and shoju
Thank you.

Kevin

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:52 pm
It's exclusive of letters. Sūtra means "thread." The "thread" under discussion here is the nature of the mind, this is the buddhahood that does not come from mind; as it has never been produced, it is the result without a cause.

This nature of the mind will never be discovered by reading books, any book. Even the Lotus Sutra. The White Lotus of the True Dharma is not a book and is not contained in letters.
“O Bhaiṣajyarāja! Wherever this sutra is taught, read, recited, copied, or wherever it is to be found, one should build a seven-jeweled stupa of great height and width and richly ornamented. There is no need to put a relic inside. Why is this? Because the Tathāgata is already in it.
To assert that the nature of mind is distinct from reading books, that the sutra is exclusive of the letters which make it up... isn't that a rather limited view? To assert that the sutra does not transcend the letters would be wrong, but to assert that reality is exclusive of the written text seems imbalanced.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:27 pm

Virgo wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:15 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:07 pm

but here i find myself with people that are well over my mental capacity and really educated and yet ...they ask me to be less confrontational..
i mean i'm sorry i am not playing with anything over a grade nine education so my grammar sucks...and my mind..i'm a buisness man so i know people...my mind is not anywhere near as smart and clever as some here....
so like what you label confrontational...is just a street guy saying his thing...grow some!
sheeeesh...
Your online now Minobu and your tone and facial expressions and so forth don't come accross in this medium.

Kevin
yes i realize that..but going whole hog does..
i wanted to show my belief and disdain for this concept of the pure lands and death bed enlightenment.
i look at it as a sort of scheme to control the masses by a Buddhist government.
Look at the state of Buddhist governments on the earth today. Myanmar , Sri lanka ..to some extent thailand is a pleasure country..sex trade and wildness at bars at beaches...fun fun fun...

This deathbed stuff is so far from what Nichiren Taught us.
The Lotus blooms bright in a muddy swamp...we are mired in karma...everyone on this planet at this time basically is mired in the same karma.

oh one might say there is a huge gap between a genius and a downs syndrome person...but thats just the surface...underneath we all are almost the same...we live on a planet with concentration camps, issis, etc...also through the mercy of Buddha it's not so bad , we have a semblance of good will governments..doctors good teachers...social ideals.....here in Canada corruption is rampant but crumbs are thrown the way of the poor and the working poor. america has really really good people on it's shores...

anyway.....i digress but tried to leave an image...

we all are basically the same karmic level...people fool themselves and others...
now unto :

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:16 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:12 pm

it no longer is the time or place for this stuff malcolm...it doesn't really lead these people to Buddhahood ...
Of course it does. Those people of highest capacity will attain buddhahood in this life;
At the cost of sounding harshly critical ...show me the money...I've been around...To me even a rainbow body exposition is just a Buddhist parlour trick...the people that claim to have this ability do not lead masses to enlightenment..they acquire immense wealth and fame...but really...show me the Buddhahood.


if they are a bit lazy, then in the bardo;


puulease !
and if they are lazier still, then in a natural nirmanakāya buddhafield.
back to that...i've been around and don't see Buddhas out right buddhas..claims...and such...i've had a few expirences with a rinpoche that would lead me to believe he has some sort of power...but these are just high end Buddhist parlour games...
But there is no buddhahood through vehicles of intellectual analysis or based on words written down on paper. The real sūtra has no letters. True buddhahood does not come from mind. The real result has no cause.
When you embark on Nichiren Shonin's Buddhism your real teachers are the Buddhas , and Bodhisattvas, certain gods help out, those that promised this, a plethora of beings help out.

This practice is spread among the defiled in the degenerative age. It's grunt work...
We see in our own personal life, development.

It is spoken in the Lotus sutra..promised by the Buddha with certain edicts about His other practices not suited for this time...

There is no glorious entrance to the pure lands as promised by some...thats real hard core work and the extent of karma we all possess on this planet...too heavy to get there...

i'm not saying they were practices other than Lotus Buddhism taught by Buddhas..You guys have had almost a thousand years of the degenerative age to show a huge influx of what you claim...

i can't argue with the death bed stuff and after death stuff...but the first claim..


Of course it does. Those people of highest capacity will attain buddhahood in this life;
show me the money...by now an army of Buddhas should be everywhere in the flesh helping out...

it's all faith based and claim based...
what??? you are saying once they achieve this they all retired to something...

almost a thousand years into the degenerative age...look what happened to Buddhist countries...either defeated by common armies wielding man made weapons...or turned into tyranny or pleasure palaces...

No the writing is on the wall..

you can't have it both ways...you can't use Buddhsit text and Sutras in discussion and when it gets too real...go to..

in this context. this dodge"
]But there is no buddhahood through vehicles of intellectual analysis or based on words written down on paper. The real sūtra has no letters.
i understand that..thats why my practice is under the Buddha's cloak so to speak. My practice is one of direct contact with Buddha and all that that means....during the degenerative time in the place where sentients of unbelievable dark karma dwell.

You know when tibet's teachings came we had the mild vipassana and compassion teachings ...then Tantra was sold ...and when all the people had bought all the initiations galore, after like 30 years.....and nothing much happened...it's now Dzogchen and Mahamudra being sold...
the real deal this time...

like i said you have had almost a thousand years of degenerate times to build a plethora of Buddhas...show me the money...
thats taken from a movie for those that don't know ...it actually a small clip ..but relevant..very relevant word for word as you go..


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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:37 pm

It's important to note that even way back 40 years ago in the gakki...i had a few higher up explain to me and others ...that the type of shakubuku i just did here in thread is only EVER met for other Buddhists and never to be done to anyone else here in the west.
thats what i meant by my duty.

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:58 pm

like i said you have had almost a thousand years of degenerate times to build a plethora of Buddhas...show me the money...
Go to Tibet. You will find many buddhas there.
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The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by rory » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:26 am

Queequeg:To assert that the nature of mind is distinct from reading books, that the sutra is exclusive of the letters which make it up... isn't that a rather limited view? To assert that the sutra does not transcend the letters would be wrong, but to assert that reality is exclusive of the written text seems imbalanced.
Malcolm doesn't understand Tiantai philosophy which involves ichinen sanzen 3,000 worlds in one thought moment. Everything interpenetrates, so it is incorrect to assert that reality is exclusive of a text. Where does it say in the sutra that every letter is a Buddha. The Buddha contains even the Hell realms and books etc contain the Buddha.
gassho
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The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Virgo » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:30 am

Minobu wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:37 pm
It's important to note that even way back 40 years ago in the gakki...i had a few higher up explain to me and others ...that the type of shakubuku i just did here in thread is only EVER met for other Buddhists and never to be done to anyone else here in the west.
thats what i meant by my duty.
Well thank you for clarifying, Minobu.

Kevin

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:30 am

rory wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:26 am

Malcolm doesn't understand Tiantai philosophy which involves ichinen sanzen 3,000 worlds in one thought moment.
It's just a version of cittamatra, a.k.a, mind only.
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by TharpaChodron » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:02 am

My understanding is that the Buddha was requested to teach several times before he actually gave in and taught the Dharma. Also that Nichiren is the only Buddhism to be banned anywhere.

Forcibly teaching Buddhadharma seems unhealthy to me. One of the great things about Buddhism is that it doesn't impose itself on people.

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by illarraza » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:25 am

Virgo wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:52 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:49 pm

yeah well look up shakubuku...
it means break and subdue...
I know what shakubuku means. I have read all of Nichiren's Gosho.

But being "forceful" or very determined to convert someone, doesn't mean confrontational, what do you think?

Kevin
True. It depends. If someone like Malcolm comes onto a Nichiren Lotus Sutra forum spouting nonsense, then indeed, shakubuku is confrontational.

Mark

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:52 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:30 am
rory wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:26 am

Malcolm doesn't understand Tiantai philosophy which involves ichinen sanzen 3,000 worlds in one thought moment.
It's just a version of cittamatra, a.k.a, mind only.
I don't think it's that simple.

I recall reading Bertrand Russel suggest we only think in metaphors. Maybe more like tropes. "A is like this, B is like this", but all of them just approximations.

It's more radical than mind only.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by illarraza » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:57 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:58 pm
like i said you have had almost a thousand years of degenerate times to build a plethora of Buddhas...show me the money...
Go to Tibet. You will find many buddhas there.
"In Tung-ch’un we read: “Question: While the Buddha was in the world, there were many who were resentful and jealous. But in the age after his passing, when someone preaches this [Lotus] sutra, why do so many oppose that person? Answer: It is said that good medicine tastes bitter. This sutra, which is like good medicine, dispels attachments to the five vehicles and establishes the one ultimate principle. It reproaches those in the ranks of ordinary beings and censures those in the ranks of sagehood, denies [provisional] Mahayana and refutes Hinayana. It speaks of the heavenly devils as poisonous insects and calls non-Buddhists demons. It censures those who cling to Hinayana teachings, calling them mean and impoverished, and it dismisses bodhisattvas as beginners in learning. For this reason, heavenly devils hate to listen to it, non-Buddhists find their ears offended, persons of the two vehicles are dumbfounded, and bodhisattvas flee in terror. That is why all these types of people try to make hindrances [for a practitioner of the Lotus Sutra]. The Buddha was not speaking nonsense when he declared that hatred and jealousy would abound.”

Those "Buddhas" in Tibet who, failing to realize the cause of Buddhahood of all Buddhas throughout the Universe, let alone praise it (Myoho renge kyo) and who otherwise expound sutras other than the Lotus Sutra (and therefore do not expound the ultimate doctrine), are no better than ordinary persons at the stage of being a Buddha only in theory. As discussed on E-Sangha, anytime Malcolm or his Tibetian "Buddhas" or any so-called non-Nichiren Buddhist would like engage in a Buddhist rain challenge in order to absolutely prove (or disprove) the righteousness of our respective teachings, I remain here and ready for the challenge.

Mark

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:00 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:02 am
My understanding is that the Buddha was requested to teach several times before he actually gave in and taught the Dharma.
Yes. If you read this thread, this has been brought up.
Also that Nichiren is the only Buddhism to be banned anywhere
This is news to me. Can you direct me to your sources?
Forcibly teaching Buddhadharma seems unhealthy to me. One of the great things about Buddhism is that it doesn't impose itself on people.
There is an underlying misunderstanding here. Posts earlier in this thread might address these misunderstandings.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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