Shakabuku Woes

illarraza
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by illarraza » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:02 am

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:52 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:30 am
rory wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:26 am

Malcolm doesn't understand Tiantai philosophy which involves ichinen sanzen 3,000 worlds in one thought moment.
It's just a version of cittamatra, a.k.a, mind only.
I don't think it's that simple.

I recall reading Bertrand Russel suggest we only think in metaphors. Maybe more like tropes. "A is like this, B is like this", but all of them just approximations.

It's more radical than mind only.
Absolutely:

"The path to Buddhahood is not to be found in the Flower Garland doctrine of the phenomenal world as created by the mind alone, in the eight negations of the Three Treatises school, in the Consciousness-Only doctrine of the Dharma Characteristics school, or in the True Word type of meditation on the five elements of the universe. Only the T’ien-t’ai doctrine of three thousand realms in a single moment of life is the path to Buddhahood."

and

"The essence of the sutras preached before the Lotus Sutra is that all phenomena arise from the mind. To illustrate, they say that the mind is like the great earth, while the grasses and trees are like all phenomena. But it is not so with the Lotus Sutra. It teaches that the mind itself is the great earth, and that the great earth itself is the grasses and trees. The meaning of the earlier sutras is that clarity of mind is like the moon, and that purity of mind is like a flower. But it is not so with the Lotus Sutra. It is the teaching that the moon itself is mind, and the flower itself is mind. You should realize from this that polished rice is not polished rice; it is life itself."

Mark

User avatar
TharpaChodron
Posts: 345
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:13 am
Location: California

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by TharpaChodron » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:28 am

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:00 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:02 am
My understanding is that the Buddha was requested to teach several times before he actually gave in and taught the Dharma.
Yes. If you read this thread, this has been brought up.
Also that Nichiren is the only Buddhism to be banned anywhere
This is news to me. Can you direct me to your sources?
Forcibly teaching Buddhadharma seems unhealthy to me. One of the great things about Buddhism is that it doesn't impose itself on people.
There is an underlying misunderstanding here. Posts earlier in this thread might address these misunderstandings.
I realized as soon as posting my comment that I was probably walking into a landmine because I was saying an opinion that doesn't have much to back it up with. The source was a meditation teacher who I won't name.

I'll stay out of it though. (Backs out slowly and closes the door.)

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 4350
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:25 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:28 am
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:00 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:02 am
My understanding is that the Buddha was requested to teach several times before he actually gave in and taught the Dharma.
Yes. If you read this thread, this has been brought up.
Also that Nichiren is the only Buddhism to be banned anywhere
This is news to me. Can you direct me to your sources?
Forcibly teaching Buddhadharma seems unhealthy to me. One of the great things about Buddhism is that it doesn't impose itself on people.
There is an underlying misunderstanding here. Posts earlier in this thread might address these misunderstandings.
I realized as soon as posting my comment that I was probably walking into a landmine because I was saying an opinion that doesn't have much to back it up with. The source was a meditation teacher who I won't name.

I'll stay out of it though. (Backs out slowly and closes the door.)
Not a landmine. More like a pile of poop that you made and have now tracked all over the house.

:smile:

Just curious about your source of misinformation. Hearsay is inherently problematic.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25479
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:02 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:52 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:30 am
rory wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:26 am

Malcolm doesn't understand Tiantai philosophy which involves ichinen sanzen 3,000 worlds in one thought moment.
It's just a version of cittamatra, a.k.a, mind only.
I don't think it's that simple.

I recall reading Bertrand Russel suggest we only think in metaphors. Maybe more like tropes. "A is like this, B is like this", but all of them just approximations.

It's more radical than mind only.

If you say that x is included in a moment of mind, then x is identical with that moment of mind and cannot exist apart from that moment of mind. Therefore, it is just cittamatra.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25479
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:05 pm

illarraza wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:02 am
"The essence of the sutras preached before the Lotus Sutra is that all phenomena arise from the mind. To illustrate, they say that the mind is like the great earth, while the grasses and trees are like all phenomena.

This simply means that mental factors (caittas) are mind (citta), rather than being something other than the mind. But ichinen sanzen is still a mind-only doctrine and cannot go beyond mind since it asserts that all phenomena are included in a moment of mind.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

narhwal90
Posts: 513
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by narhwal90 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:14 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:28 am
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:00 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:02 am
My understanding is that the Buddha was requested to teach several times before he actually gave in and taught the Dharma.
Yes. If you read this thread, this has been brought up.
Also that Nichiren is the only Buddhism to be banned anywhere
This is news to me. Can you direct me to your sources?
Forcibly teaching Buddhadharma seems unhealthy to me. One of the great things about Buddhism is that it doesn't impose itself on people.
There is an underlying misunderstanding here. Posts earlier in this thread might address these misunderstandings.
I realized as soon as posting my comment that I was probably walking into a landmine because I was saying an opinion that doesn't have much to back it up with. The source was a meditation teacher who I won't name.

I'll stay out of it though. (Backs out slowly and closes the door.)

Its certainly true the Nichiren schools faced a lot of persecution and proscription in post-medieval Kamakura & elsewhere, from Tendai orthodoxy and governmental as well. I recall various wars being fought over it- IIRC the Lotus Wars? IIRC Dogen experienced some as well.

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 4350
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:02 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:52 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:30 am


It's just a version of cittamatra, a.k.a, mind only.
I don't think it's that simple.

I recall reading Bertrand Russel suggest we only think in metaphors. Maybe more like tropes. "A is like this, B is like this", but all of them just approximations.

It's more radical than mind only.

If you say that x is included in a moment of mind, then x is identical with that moment of mind and cannot exist apart from that moment of mind. Therefore, it is just cittamatra.
Mind only reduces to mind. One point of difference is that Zhiyi specifically identified this as bias. Moment of mind is also included in x, then moment of mind is identical with x and cannot exist apart from x. Therefore three thousand realms are a moment of mind.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 4350
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:48 pm

Also, 3000 in moment of mind leans more Madhyamika realism.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25479
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:53 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:45 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:02 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:52 am


I don't think it's that simple.

I recall reading Bertrand Russel suggest we only think in metaphors. Maybe more like tropes. "A is like this, B is like this", but all of them just approximations.

It's more radical than mind only.

If you say that x is included in a moment of mind, then x is identical with that moment of mind and cannot exist apart from that moment of mind. Therefore, it is just cittamatra.
Mind only reduces to mind. One point of difference is that Zhiyi specifically identified this as bias. Moment of mind is also included in x, then moment of mind is identical with x and cannot exist apart from x. Therefore three thousand realms are a moment of mind.
The assertion does not work that way. The assertion is not that a moment of mind exists in three thousand x's. What this assertion is basically saying is that everything, all possible existences, from hell to buddhahood, are included in a single moment of mind. This assertion does not go beyond cittamatra. If this assertion is the pinnacle of Tien tai thinking, then Tien tai does not go beyond cittamatra, no matter how hard one tries to fight one's way out of the bag.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 4350
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:53 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:45 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:02 pm



If you say that x is included in a moment of mind, then x is identical with that moment of mind and cannot exist apart from that moment of mind. Therefore, it is just cittamatra.
Mind only reduces to mind. One point of difference is that Zhiyi specifically identified this as bias. Moment of mind is also included in x, then moment of mind is identical with x and cannot exist apart from x. Therefore three thousand realms are a moment of mind.
The assertion does not work that way. The assertion is not that a moment of mind exists in three thousand x's. What this assertion is basically saying is that everything, all possible existences, from hell to buddhahood, are included in a single moment of mind. This assertion does not go beyond cittamatra. If this assertion is the pinnacle of Tien tai thinking, then Tien tai does not go beyond cittamatra, no matter how hard one tries to fight one's way out of the bag.
Well M, all I can say is, thank you for your final pronouncement on Zhiyi.

In all seriousness, hopefully Jikai will be able to lead the discussion on Mohezhikuan as planned and you will join us.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25479
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:10 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:58 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:53 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:45 pm

Mind only reduces to mind. One point of difference is that Zhiyi specifically identified this as bias. Moment of mind is also included in x, then moment of mind is identical with x and cannot exist apart from x. Therefore three thousand realms are a moment of mind.
The assertion does not work that way. The assertion is not that a moment of mind exists in three thousand x's. What this assertion is basically saying is that everything, all possible existences, from hell to buddhahood, are included in a single moment of mind. This assertion does not go beyond cittamatra. If this assertion is the pinnacle of Tien tai thinking, then Tien tai does not go beyond cittamatra, no matter how hard one tries to fight one's way out of the bag.
Well M, all I can say is, thank you for your final pronouncement on Zhiyi.

In all seriousness, hopefully Jikai will be able to lead the discussion on Mohezhikuan as planned and you will join us.

It was not a final pronouncement, since I rather doubt all of Tien tai thought can be reduced to this slogan. However, on the face of it, the slogan that "three thousand worlds are included in a moment of mind" does not go beyond cittamatra.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

narhwal90
Posts: 513
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by narhwal90 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:59 pm

The 3 factor of the 3000 includes; the 5 factors (form,perception,conception,volition,consciousness), the realm of living beings, the environment- so seems to incorporate more than mind only, but also its action and where it operates.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25479
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:07 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:59 pm
The 3 factor of the 3000 includes; the 5 factors (form,perception,conception,volition,consciousness), the realm of living beings, the environment- so seems to incorporate more than mind only, but also its action and where it operates.
If all of this is included in a moment of mind, it just does not go beyond cittamatra.

Recall, the basic assertion of cittamatra is "The three realms are only mind." This includes everything, buddhas, sentient beings, grass, trees, hell beings, the lot.

Now, if this mind is itself held to be empty, lacking any nature, then that is a different thing; and this statement cannot be considered complete in and of itself. If this mind is also empty (and given that it is momentary, it must be dependently originated) then Tien tai view would be akin to Yogacāra Madhyamaka, and would not go beyond that.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 4350
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:10 pm
It was not a final pronouncement, since I rather doubt all of Tien tai thought can be reduced to this slogan. However, on the face of it, the slogan that "three thousand worlds are included in a moment of mind" does not go beyond cittamatra.
Sigh. I don't mean to be dismissive, but that is a load of horse poop.

In any event, it will be very interesting to read your take on the Mohezhikuan.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25479
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:36 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:34 pm

Sigh. I don't mean to be dismissive, but that is a load of horse poop.
Wow, what a decisive, well thought out refutation. :bow:
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 4350
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:36 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:34 pm

Sigh. I don't mean to be dismissive, but that is a load of horse poop.
Wow, what a decisive, well thought out refutation. :bow:
Explain to me why your speculation on a "slogan" deserves more?
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25479
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:48 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:36 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:34 pm

Sigh. I don't mean to be dismissive, but that is a load of horse poop.
Wow, what a decisive, well thought out refutation. :bow:
Explain to me why your speculation on a "slogan" deserves more?
It is not a speculation. The statement literally reads, as promulgated everywhere, "three thousands worlds are included a moment of mind."

Since the basic cittamatra statement is, "The three realms are mind only" I see no difference since three realms includes everything included in the three thousands worlds. Is there something included in the "three thousand worlds" of the slogan that is not included in the triloka/tridhātu?
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

narhwal90
Posts: 513
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by narhwal90 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:03 pm

The triloka seems to have a different focus; various dimensions of form. There seems to be a general correspondence in some respects eg stages towards nirvana, but I think ichinen sanzen is working from a different angle with different predicates.

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1817
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:04 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:02 am
My understanding is that the Buddha was requested to teach several times before he actually gave in and taught the Dharma. Also that Nichiren is the only Buddhism to be banned anywhere.

Forcibly teaching Buddhadharma seems unhealthy to me. One of the great things about Buddhism is that it doesn't impose itself on people.
as i explained i wasn't actually forcing this on a non believer...just debating rather heavily to show where they are wrong in their hanger oner attitudes to teachings no longer valid in the degenerative times...the Buddha taught this, warned about it and all His Students during the first 500 years after His Parinirvana understood this as well.

it's hard too :cry:


All alone, or in twos
The ones who really love you
Walk up and down outside the wall
Some hand in hand
Some gathering together in bands
The bleeding hearts and the artists
Make their stand
And when they've given you their all
Some stagger and fall after all it's not easy
banging your heart against some mad buggers
Wall

Songwriters: Roger Waters
Outside the Wall lyrics © Warner/Chappell Music, Inc

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25479
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:12 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:03 pm
The triloka seems to have a different focus; various dimensions of form. There seems to be a general correspondence in some respects eg stages towards nirvana, but I think ichinen sanzen is working from a different angle with different predicates.
Either Ichinen Sanzen reduces all possible phenomena to a single moment of mind, or it does not. A) If it does, then the slogan does not go beyond cittamatra. B) If it is does not, then the slogan needs futher interpretation . You must accept either a or b, since there is no third alternative.
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kunzang Tobgyal, Minobu, narhwal90, Temicco and 24 guests