Shakabuku Woes

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Minobu
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:14 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:28 am
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:00 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:02 am
My understanding is that the Buddha was requested to teach several times before he actually gave in and taught the Dharma.
Yes. If you read this thread, this has been brought up.
Also that Nichiren is the only Buddhism to be banned anywhere
This is news to me. Can you direct me to your sources?
Forcibly teaching Buddhadharma seems unhealthy to me. One of the great things about Buddhism is that it doesn't impose itself on people.
There is an underlying misunderstanding here. Posts earlier in this thread might address these misunderstandings.
I realized as soon as posting my comment that I was probably walking into a landmine because I was saying an opinion that doesn't have much to back it up with. The source was a meditation teacher who I won't name.

I'll stay out of it though. (Backs out slowly and closes the door.)
actually you were quite right in addressing how Tibetans approach new members.
I left Nichiren Daishonin's teachings...and was very close to a Rinpoche..he explained often enough he had more than enough students..and that Buddhism is not spread but people come to it due to merit.

But that's then and this is now...we don't live in that time anymore...
i don't do what i just did here with anyone ...i've been here over a year and this was my first time i went that heavy...with other Buddhists..

It needed to to be said...

You do realize Malcolm does the same all the time...maybe with a lot more finesse than me , but he does this all the time.

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Minobu
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:10 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:58 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:53 pm


The assertion does not work that way. The assertion is not that a moment of mind exists in three thousand x's. What this assertion is basically saying is that everything, all possible existences, from hell to buddhahood, are included in a single moment of mind. This assertion does not go beyond cittamatra. If this assertion is the pinnacle of Tien tai thinking, then Tien tai does not go beyond cittamatra, no matter how hard one tries to fight one's way out of the bag.
Well M, all I can say is, thank you for your final pronouncement on Zhiyi.

In all seriousness, hopefully Jikai will be able to lead the discussion on Mohezhikuan as planned and you will join us.

It was not a final pronouncement, since I rather doubt all of Tien tai thought can be reduced to this slogan. However, on the face of it, the slogan that "three thousand worlds are included in a moment of mind" does not go beyond cittamatra.
slogan?
why does your mind reduce a teaching to a slogan.
do you view your Dzogchen teachings as a bunch of slogans?
curious?

i doubt if a man of your advancement would reduce a teaching and call it a slogan , which is demeaning..
so tell us how Buddha Dharma is a bunch of slogans .

narhwal90
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by narhwal90 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:12 pm
narhwal90 wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:03 pm
The triloka seems to have a different focus; various dimensions of form. There seems to be a general correspondence in some respects eg stages towards nirvana, but I think ichinen sanzen is working from a different angle with different predicates.
Either Ichinen Sanzen reduces all possible phenomena to a single moment of mind, or it does not. A) If it does, then the slogan does not go beyond cittamatra. B) If it is does not, then the slogan needs futher interpretation . You must accept either a or b, since there is no third alternative.
Don't know so much about "must", I doubt the question is that simple.

Norwegian
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Norwegian » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:33 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:10 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:58 pm

Well M, all I can say is, thank you for your final pronouncement on Zhiyi.

In all seriousness, hopefully Jikai will be able to lead the discussion on Mohezhikuan as planned and you will join us.

It was not a final pronouncement, since I rather doubt all of Tien tai thought can be reduced to this slogan. However, on the face of it, the slogan that "three thousand worlds are included in a moment of mind" does not go beyond cittamatra.
slogan?
why does your mind reduce a teaching to a slogan.
do you view your Dzogchen teachings as a bunch of slogans?
curious?

i doubt if a man of your advancement would reduce a teaching and call it a slogan , which is demeaning..
so tell us how Buddha Dharma is a bunch of slogans .
"We, the followers of St. Nichiren, must do our best to achieve his goal. Nichiren priests should exert themselves in missionary activities with the slogan of absolute respect of life based on the teaching of the Lotus Sutra."

Just a random quotation from a Nichiren priest. Who himself uses the term "slogan" in the context of the teachings.

As for the definition of the term "slogan": "A slogan is a memorable motto or phrase used in a clan, political, commercial, religious, and other context as a repetitive expression of an idea or purpose, with the goal of persuading members of the public or a more defined target group."

Also:

The Oxford Dictionary of English defines a slogan as "a short and striking or memorable phrase used in advertising." A slogan usually has the attributes of being memorable, very concise and appealing to the audience. These attributes are necessary in a slogan, as it is only a short phrase. Therefore, it is necessary for slogans to be memorable, as well as concise in what the organisation or brand is trying to say and appealing to who the organisation or brand is trying to reach."

Seems to fit quite well with "Ichinen Sanzen" I'd say.

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Queequeg
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:48 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:36 pm


Wow, what a decisive, well thought out refutation. :bow:
Explain to me why your speculation on a "slogan" deserves more?
It is not a speculation. The statement literally reads, as promulgated everywhere, "three thousands worlds are included a moment of mind."

Since the basic cittamatra statement is, "The three realms are mind only" I see no difference since three realms includes everything included in the three thousands worlds. Is there something included in the "three thousand worlds" of the slogan that is not included in the triloka/tridhātu?
Yes. And I pointed this out to you. Reducing the three realms to mind is a biased view. The Tientai version of the mind only slogan would be, "The three realms are mind only, and the mind is three realms only." To only assert the first half is criticized by Zhiyi as bias. We could also say, The Mind is Malcolm only, or the Mind is Queequeg only, or the Mind is Hockey Stick only, Malcolm is Queequeg only, or Queequeg is Malcolm only, or Queequeg is Hockey Stick only, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.

Brook Zyporyn uses some alternative terminology - Mind Only is a unicentric view, ie. Mind is the reference point. Tientai is a radically omnicentric view, meaning any dharma can be the reference point. This has implications for meditative practice as well as for the nature of mind itself.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:12 pm
Either Ichinen Sanzen reduces all possible phenomena to a single moment of mind, or it does not. A) If it does, then the slogan does not go beyond cittamatra. B) If it is does not, then the slogan needs futher interpretation .
A kid walks into an ice cream parlor and asks for a chocolate cone. Shop keeper says, "Ah, sorry kid, no more chocolate." The kid then looks at the selection and says, "Can I have a double scoop of vanilla and chocolate?" Shop keeper responds, "Kid, no more chocolate. Please select something else." Kid looks at the display again. "OK, can I have a Strawberry, Vanilla and Chocolate Sundae?" Shop keeper is now frustrated. "Kid, spell the blue in blueberry." Kid says, "Huh? B-L-U-E." Shop keeper replies, "Good. Now spell the straw in strawberry." "What's with the spelling bee? S-T-R-A-W." "Bear with me, kid. Now spell the f*ck in chocolate." "Huh? There is no f*ck in chocolate." "That's what I've been trying to tell you."
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Malcolm
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:49 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:48 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:37 pm


Explain to me why your speculation on a "slogan" deserves more?
It is not a speculation. The statement literally reads, as promulgated everywhere, "three thousands worlds are included a moment of mind."

Since the basic cittamatra statement is, "The three realms are mind only" I see no difference since three realms includes everything included in the three thousands worlds. Is there something included in the "three thousand worlds" of the slogan that is not included in the triloka/tridhātu?
Yes.

So, what is not included in the three realms in this statement? Anything? Keep it tight, cute analogies need not apply since they have no rigor.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:50 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:37 pm
Tientai is a radically omnicentric view, meaning any dharma can be the reference point.
So here you are claiming b) the statement requires further interpretation and cannot be taken at face value.

You guys really should learn how to debate issues with less emotion.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Minobu
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:52 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:33 pm
Minobu wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:10 pm



It was not a final pronouncement, since I rather doubt all of Tien tai thought can be reduced to this slogan. However, on the face of it, the slogan that "three thousand worlds are included in a moment of mind" does not go beyond cittamatra.
slogan?
why does your mind reduce a teaching to a slogan.
do you view your Dzogchen teachings as a bunch of slogans?
curious?

i doubt if a man of your advancement would reduce a teaching and call it a slogan , which is demeaning..
so tell us how Buddha Dharma is a bunch of slogans .
"We, the followers of St. Nichiren, must do our best to achieve his goal. Nichiren priests should exert themselves in missionary activities with the slogan of absolute respect of life based on the teaching of the Lotus Sutra."

Just a random quotation from a Nichiren priest. Who himself uses the term "slogan" in the context of the teachings.

As for the definition of the term "slogan": "A slogan is a memorable motto or phrase used in a clan, political, commercial, religious, and other context as a repetitive expression of an idea or purpose, with the goal of persuading members of the public or a more defined target group."

Also:

The Oxford Dictionary of English defines a slogan as "a short and striking or memorable phrase used in advertising." A slogan usually has the attributes of being memorable, very concise and appealing to the audience. These attributes are necessary in a slogan, as it is only a short phrase. Therefore, it is necessary for slogans to be memorable, as well as concise in what the organisation or brand is trying to say and appealing to who the organisation or brand is trying to reach."

Seems to fit quite well with "Ichinen Sanzen" I'd say.
well i never viewed Buddha dharma teachings as memorable phrases in advertizing something..

and as for the Nichiren priest...whom i do not know who they are..his use of the word slogan was not demeaning and lowering the teachings to a phrase of appealing to someone...he was talking about their actions in missionary work..totally different than demeaning Buddha Dharma to a bunch of slogans..

In Malcolm's next book is he going to use the word slogan to define each of his teachings...

i think you are reaching here...

are you going to refer to such things as the 3 jewels as slogans

i'm looking forward to watch malcolm use the word slogan in the dzogchen section...repeatedly for all terms and practices..

"On your bike" !

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Minobu
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:50 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:37 pm
Tientai is a radically omnicentric view, meaning any dharma can be the reference point.
So here you are claiming b) the statement requires further interpretation and cannot be taken at face value.

You guys really should learn how to debate issues with less emotion.
and your use of slogan was ?
be honest now...

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Queequeg
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:55 pm

Come now, Malcolm. No need to get all personal. Who's emotional? Do you really think I'm worked up about this? I just told a joke to leaven the mood.

I sincerely do hope Jikai leads the study of Mohezhikuan here at DW, or wherever he chooses to do. And I sincerely hope you will follow along because I would be very interested for your take.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Malcolm
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:57 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:55 pm
Come now, Malcolm. No need to get all personal. Who's emotional? Do you really think I'm worked up about this? I just told a joke to leaven the mood.

well, it was like pulling teeth for you to admit that the slogan, ichinen zanzen, cannot be taken at face value. If it is read literally, it really does not transcend cittamatra.
I sincerely do hope Jikai leads the study of Mohezhikuan here at DW, or wherever he chooses to do. And I sincerely hope you will follow along because I would be very interested for your take.
When it comes to sūtra studies, there is nothing in Tibetan, Chinese, or Japanese Buddhism which is not already addressed and settled by Indian masters.
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Minobu
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:50 pm


You guys really should learn how to debate issues with less emotion.
and you deflect when put in a corner with one liners like that all the time...

it' has nothing to do with the post and all to do with triggers and deflection...

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Malcolm
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:00 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:57 pm
it' has nothing to do with the post and all to do with triggers and deflection...
Says the most emotional poster of all on DW, apart from smcj...and possibly, mark rogow.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Minobu
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:57 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:55 pm
Come now, Malcolm. No need to get all personal. Who's emotional? Do you really think I'm worked up about this? I just told a joke to leaven the mood.

I sincerely do hope Jikai leads the study of Mohezhikuan here at DW, or wherever he chooses to do. And I sincerely hope you will follow along because I would be very interested for your take.

well, it was like pulling teeth for you to admit that the slogan, ichinen zanzen, cannot be taken at face value. If it is read literally, it really does not transcend cittamatra.
lol....
ok so i shall remind you constantly about the use or non use of the word slogan by you. lol...
it will be great to see in other venues online...lol..

Malcom defines Budha Dharma as a bunch of slogans...

the three jewels is just a slogan over used by some...

Mind only school, just a slogan out of tune with Dzogchen ...
Karma , the ultimate slogan to describe everything from illness to lack of finding a parking spot.

Om Mane Padme Hum
Lord Avolikitashvara's slogan of choice...

wacth for this topic coming to other venues online.

roflamo...
malcolm do you believe yourself ...is this really just the use of a word...is there no ulterior motive in using it in this section...have you used it in other sections..
be honest now...

cause it might be just a tad emotional of you.

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Minobu
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:00 pm
Minobu wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:57 pm
it' has nothing to do with the post and all to do with triggers and deflection...
Says the most emotional poster of all on DW, apart from smcj...and possibly, mark rogow.
ouch !

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Malcolm
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:06 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:02 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:57 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:55 pm
Come now, Malcolm. No need to get all personal. Who's emotional? Do you really think I'm worked up about this? I just told a joke to leaven the mood.

I sincerely do hope Jikai leads the study of Mohezhikuan here at DW, or wherever he chooses to do. And I sincerely hope you will follow along because I would be very interested for your take.

well, it was like pulling teeth for you to admit that the slogan, ichinen zanzen, cannot be taken at face value. If it is read literally, it really does not transcend cittamatra.
lol....
ok so i shall remind you constantly about the use or non use of the word slogan by you. lol...
it will be great to see in other venues online...lol..

Malcom defines Budha Dharma as a bunch of slogans...

the three jewels is just a slogan over used by some...

Mind only school, just a slogan out of tune with Dzogchen ...
Karma , the ultimate slogan to describe everything from illness to lack of finding a parking spot.

Om Mane Padme Hum
Lord Avolikitashvara's slogan of choice...

wacth for this topic coming to other venues online.

roflamo...
malcolm do you believe yourself ...is this really just the use of a word...is there no ulterior motive in using it in this section...have you used it in other sections..
be honest now...

cause it might be just a tad emotional of you.
Sure, we call a whole section of Kadampa Mind Training statements slogans, things like, "Take all blame into oneself." "Don't turn a god into a demon." "Don't put the load of a yak on a dzo," "At all times, be a child of illusion," and so on.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Minobu
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:08 pm

ROFLMAO!!!!

by the by i find all things hilarious...and you reading emotionalism into minobu...more hilarity...

Malcolm


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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Norwegian » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:08 pm

Perhaps Minobu will find this interesting:
Pema Chödrön’s commentary on Atisha’s famed mind-training slogans that utilize our difficulties and problems to awaken the heart.
https://www.lionsroar.com/dont-give-up/

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Minobu
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Re: Shakabuku Woes

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:06 pm
Minobu wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:02 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:57 pm



well, it was like pulling teeth for you to admit that the slogan, ichinen zanzen, cannot be taken at face value. If it is read literally, it really does not transcend cittamatra.
lol....
ok so i shall remind you constantly about the use or non use of the word slogan by you. lol...
it will be great to see in other venues online...lol..

Malcom defines Budha Dharma as a bunch of slogans...

the three jewels is just a slogan over used by some...

Mind only school, just a slogan out of tune with Dzogchen ...
Karma , the ultimate slogan to describe everything from illness to lack of finding a parking spot.

Om Mane Padme Hum
Lord Avolikitashvara's slogan of choice...

wacth for this topic coming to other venues online.

roflamo...
malcolm do you believe yourself ...is this really just the use of a word...is there no ulterior motive in using it in this section...have you used it in other sections..
be honest now...

cause it might be just a tad emotional of you.
Sure, we call a whole section of Kadampa Mind Training statements slogans, things like, "Take all blame into oneself." "Don't turn a god into a demon." "Don't put the load of a yak on a dzo," "At all times, be a child of illusion," and so on.
exactly..but they are slogans..

those are not the same as using the word slogan in your context to describe Tien Tai's doctrine of Ichinen Sanzen and to do so is rude and boorish

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