I've been so wrong/pure lands

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Minobu
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I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:12 pm

so like i really thought this whole life in a pure land and life after death and looking down on the saha world from above was just weirded out Abrahamic thinking , but in an ancient deluded Eastern Thought way of thinking.

i read Gosho after gosho and the referance to this just hit me
''like
I HAVE received your offering of various articles. Nothing would please me more than to know that you have communicated with the late Ueno, but I know that that is impossible. Unless it was in a dream, it is unlikely that you have seen him. Unless it was an illusion, how could you have seen him? Surely your late husband is in the pure land of Eagle Peak, listening and watching over this sahā world day and night. You, his wife, and your children have only mortal senses, so you cannot see or hear him, but be assured that you will eventually be reunited [on Eagle Peak].
from
Hell is the Land of Tranquil Light

then
With a pair of wings, you will surely fly in an instant to the treasure land of Tranquil Light. I will write in more detail on another occasion.
With my deep respect,
Nichiren
from

Erthly desires are enlightenment


So it's not far off from The Early Abrahamic Thought...recently on television i was watching a Rabbi teach about the many incarnations each of us might have to go through to finally learn...

so it's not so much of what i thought and what i worried about...but it is factual...

so why not make it a goal?..so many cultures had someone see this reality, and teach it in some form or other...

i'm sort of taken back and confused.

you gotta realize i was taught by an atheist this was all lie...it is hard wired in me...

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CedarTree
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by CedarTree » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:21 pm

I think one big thing in practice is going beyond "concepts" and "conventionality"

Or at least realizing them as skillfull means and how the karmic formations of our perspective come together moment to moment.

Or else we just move form limited boxes to limited boxes. Each missing a lot.

Always be well friend and hope your practice always improves :anjali:

Practice, Practice, Practice

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:36 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:12 pm
so like i really thought this whole life in a pure land and life after death and looking down on the saha world from above was just weirded out
Buddhafields are not heaven.
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Minobu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:36 pm
Minobu wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:12 pm
so like i really thought this whole life in a pure land and life after death and looking down on the saha world from above was just weirded out
Buddhafields are not heaven.
well maybe you could clear up that for me..

just because they call it heaven and happy hunting grounds...could mean those shamans who saw something or recalled something could not quite decipher it properly..did not know what it truly is...

are there various types of pure lands, god realms etc ?

could this be some semantic argument thing?

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:06 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:42 pm

could this be some semantic argument thing?
Buddhafields are places where one can train Dharma without the kinds of obstacles one faces here in terms of limited life span, etc.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Minobu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:17 pm

SOOOoooooo ....
maybe this whole Kamakura era and it's different approaches to get there is what all the fuss about in Pure Land teachings and Nichiren Teachings..

my whole denial is something other...and could have brought a lot of confusion here at DW...misunderstood intent...

Now that i see what it is all about...maybe we should all work together...we all seem to have the same goal...which seriously...i did not see it that way at all..

egads...out of the frying pan and into the fire....
*sigh*

maybe drinking is not such a bad idea...hey they are making weed totally available in stores across Canada as of July 1st ..Canada's Birthday...Prime Minister Trudeau's gift to Canada ...lol..legal weed and Hashish..mmmm hashish....

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:20 pm

Break Fast time

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Coëmgenu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:06 pm
Minobu wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:42 pm

could this be some semantic argument thing?
Buddhafields are places where one can train Dharma without the kinds of obstacles one faces here in terms of limited life span, etc.
"Heaven" is so vague in Christianity its almost nirvāṇa. Almost.

Me and my Anglican boyfriend get in debates all the time. If Buddhism has a concept that is analogous to "Heaven" in Christianity, it is unacquired Buddha-nature, not any place or state. But that is only speaking of some Christianities, since it is almost as diverse as Buddhism.

In one of the beforementioned debates I finally got him to admit that the Lotus Sūtra's recension of the Prodigal Son is likely the original, versus Luke.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Minobu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:42 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:22 pm

In one of the beforementioned debates I finally got him to admit that the Lotus Sūtra's recension of the Prodigal Son is likely the original, versus Luke.
if you have the time ..could you elaborate on this...remind me of it in the Lotus and then what Luke's is all about

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:54 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:42 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:22 pm

In one of the beforementioned debates I finally got him to admit that the Lotus Sūtra's recension of the Prodigal Son is likely the original, versus Luke.
if you have the time ..could you elaborate on this...remind me of it in the Lotus and then what Luke's is all about
LS: (and this is a severe paraphrase, I will check the sūtra later when I get home!) Two brothers inherit money from the father. I cannot remember what exactly the other does, but his money is safe, that is the point.

The "other" brother (the prodigal one) loses his money either because he wastes it or something else happens. He has to go back and work for his father (but he doesn't know it is his father! when he goes back). The father employs the son without telling him and has him work to make money. Later on, he reveals that he is the son's father, and that the son is still rich, and has been rich all along while working thinking that he was poor and not knowing his father lived.

Gospel of Luke: very similar, but the son doesn't not work for his father and the father does not hide his identity from the son. Instead, the son losses his money and the father immediately forgives him. The older son is upset and wants the younger son punished, but the father says "Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. But we had to celebrate and rejoice, because this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found." Here, instead, the father thinks the son is dead and learns he was not.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:33 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:54 pm
was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found."



thanks Coëmgenu .
I think when the word heaven is used it gets people angsty that i'm describing what the pure land is like.
i don't have any recall of one ...so i don;t know what they are like.

i do find it interesting that i have gone from thinking Buddhism was totaly to do with improving one's life condition in this life...helping out in Samsara..to just a prep for the after life..

it seems to me the whole Kamakura era brought about some hard core heavies on the matter who dissected everything Buddha taught for this end..Even Nichiren Shonin seems to be about see you in Eagle Peak ville...or the land of Tranquil Light ville...

I realize i might have morphed Western Holy Alchemy and it's drive to improve life here and now.with what i thought Buddhism was for..Holy Alchemists, inner work stuff , not the Lab Stuff... don't focus at all on the afterlife...for it is all about coming back here more prepared and wiser...and in this life enjoy it as much as feasibly possible ...do things to enhance one to enjoy samsara more..

You know the whole

As above so below...


the whole afterlife thing actually does not impress anything upon my being...sort of like ..in some future life if it happens hey it happens...I've done the Kamakura thing and have that in my Karmic Stream...apparently i did enough for it to happen...

as always ...am i too honest?

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:07 pm

The LS section from above in a poorly formatted direct cut-and-paste from Nichiren Library:

Suppose there was a man, still young in years, who abandoned his father, ran away, and lived for a long time in another land, for perhaps ten, twenty, or even fifty years. As he grew older, he found himself increasingly poor and in want. He hurried about in every direction, seeking for clothing and food, wandering farther and farther afield until by chance he turned his steps in the direction of his homeland.
“The father meanwhile had been searching for his son without success and had taken up residence in a certain city. The father’s household was very wealthy, with immeasurable riches and treasures. Gold, silver, lapis lazuli, coral, amber, and crystal beads all filled and overflowed from his storehouses. He had many grooms and menservants, clerks and attendants, and elephants, horses, carriages, oxen, and goats beyond number. He engaged in profitable ventures at home and in all the lands around, and also had dealings with many merchants and traveling vendors.
“At this time the impoverished son wandered from village to village, passing through various lands and towns, till at last he came to the city where his father was residing. The father thought constantly of his son, but though he had been parted from him for over fifty years, he had never told anyone else about the matter. He merely pondered to himself, his heart filled with regret and longing. He thought to himself that he was old and P.119decrepit. He had great wealth and possessions, gold, silver, and rare treasures that filled and overflowed from his storehouses, but he had no son, so that if one day he should die, the wealth and possessions would be scattered and lost, for there was no one to entrust them to.
“This was the reason he constantly thought so earnestly of his son. And he also had this thought: If I could find my son and entrust my wealth and possessions to him, then I could feel contented and easy in mind and would have no more worries.
“World-Honored One, at that time the impoverished son drifted from one kind of employment to another until he came by chance to his father’s house. He stood by the side of the gate, gazing far off at his father, who was seated on a lion throne, his legs supported by a jeweled footrest, while Brahmans, noblemen, and householders, uniformly deferential, surrounded him. Festoons of pearls worth thousands or tens of thousands adorned his body, and clerks, grooms, and menservants holding white fly whisks stood in attendance to left and right. A jeweled canopy covered him, with flowered banners hanging from it, perfumed water had been sprinkled over the ground, heaps of rare flowers were scattered about, and precious objects were ranged here and there, brought out, put away, handed over, and received. Such were the many different types of adornments, emblems of prerogative and marks of distinction.
“When the impoverished son saw how great was his father’s power and authority, he was filled with fear and awe and regretted he had ever come to such a place. Secretly he thought to himself: This must be some king, or one who is equal to a king. This is not the sort of place where I can hire out my labor and gain a living. It would be better to go to some poor village where, if I work hard, I will find a place and can easily earn food and clothing. If I stay here for long, I may be seized and pressed into service! Having thought in this way, he raced from the spot.
“At that time the rich old man, seated on his lion throne, spied his son and recognized him immediately. His heart was filled with great joy and at once he thought: Now I have someone to entrust my storehouses of wealth and possession to! My P.120thoughts have constantly been with this son of mine, but I had no way of seeing him. Now suddenly he has appeared of himself, which is exactly what I would have wished. Though I am old and decrepit, I still care what becomes of my belongings.
“Thereupon he dispatched a bystander to go after the son as quickly as possible and bring him back. At that time the messenger raced swiftly after the son and laid hold of him. The impoverished son, alarmed and fearful, cried out in an angry voice, ‘I have done nothing wrong! Why am I being seized?’ But the messenger held on to him more tightly than ever and forcibly dragged him back.
“At that time the son thought to himself, I have committed no crime and yet I am taken prisoner. Surely I am going to be put to death! He was more terrified than ever and sank to the ground, fainting with despair.
“The father, observing this from a distance, spoke to the messenger, saying, ‘I have no need of this man. Don’t force him to come here, but sprinkle cold water on his face so he will regain his senses. Then say nothing more to him!’
“Why did he do that? Because the father knew that his son was of humble outlook and ambition, and that his own rich and eminent position would be difficult for the son to accept. He knew very well that this was his son, but as a form of expedient means he refrained from saying to anyone, ‘This is my son.’
“The messenger said to the son, ‘I am releasing you now. You may go anywhere you wish.’ The impoverished son was delighted, having gained what he had not had before, and picked himself up from the ground and went off to a poor village in order to look for food and clothing.
“At that time the rich man, hoping to entice his son back again, decided to employ an expedient means and send two men as secret messengers, men who were lean and haggard and had no imposing appearance. ‘Go seek out that poor man and approach him casually. Tell him you know a place where he can earn twice the regular wage. If he agrees to the arrangement, then bring him here and put him to work. If he asks what sort P.121of work he will be put to, say that he will be employed to clear away excrement, and that the two of you will be working with him.’
“The two messengers then set out at once to find the poor man, and when they had done so, spoke to him as they had been instructed. At that time the impoverished son asked for an advance on his wages and then went with the men to help clear away excrement.
“When the father saw his son, he pitied and wondered at him. Another day, when he was gazing out the window, he saw his son in the distance, his body thin and haggard, filthy with excrement, dirt, sweat, and defilement. The father immediately took off his necklaces, his soft fine garments, and his other adornments and put on clothes that were ragged and soiled. He smeared dirt on his body, took in his right hand a utensil for removing excrement, and assuming a gruff manner, spoke to the laborers, saying, ‘Keep at your work! You mustn’t be lazy!’ By employing this expedient means, he was able to approach his son.
“Later he spoke to his son again, saying, ‘Now then, young man! You must keep on at this work and not leave me anymore. I will increase your wages, and whatever you need in the way of utensils, rice, flour, salt, vinegar, and the like you should be in no worry about. I have an old servant I can lend you when you need him. You may set your mind at ease. I will be like a father to you, so have no more worries. Why do I say this? Because I am well along in years, but you are still young and sturdy. When you are at work, you are never deceitful or lazy or speak angry or resentful words. You don’t seem to have any faults of that kind the way my other workers do. From now on, you will be like my own son.’ And the rich man proceeded to select a name and assign it to the man as though he were his child.
“At this time the impoverished son, though he was delighted at such treatment, still thought of himself as a person of humble station who was in the employ of another. Therefore the rich man kept him clearing away excrement for the next twenty years. P.122By the end of this time, the son felt that he was understood and trusted, and he could come and go at ease, but he continued to live in the same place as before.
“World-Honored One, at that time the rich man fell ill and knew that he would die before long. He spoke to his impoverished son, saying, ‘I now have great quantities of gold, silver, and rare treasures that fill and overflow from my storehouses. You are to take complete charge of the amounts I have and of what is to be handed out and gathered in. This is what I have in mind, and I want you to carry out my wishes. Why is this? Because from now on, you and I will not behave as two different persons. So you must keep your wits about you and see that there are no mistakes or losses.’
“At that time the impoverished son, having received these instructions, took over the surveillance of all the goods, the gold, silver, and rare treasures, and the various storehouses, but never thought of appropriating for himself so much as the cost of a single meal. He continued to live where he had before, unable to cease thinking of himself as mean and lowly.
“After some time had passed, the father perceived that his son was bit by bit becoming more self-assured and magnanimous in outlook, that he was determined to accomplish great things and despised his former low opinion of himself. Realizing that his own end was approaching, he ordered his son to arrange a meeting with his relatives and the king of the country, the high ministers, and the noblemen and householders. When they were all gathered together, he proceeded to make this announcement: ‘Gentlemen, you should know that this is my son, who was born to me. In such-and-such a city he abandoned me and ran away, and for over fifty years he wandered about suffering hardship. His original name is such-and-such, and my name is such-and-such. In the past, when I was still living in my native city, I worried about him and so I set out in search of him. Sometime after, I suddenly chanced to meet up with him. This is in truth my son, and I in truth am his father. Now everything that belongs to me, all my wealth and possessions, shall belong entirely to this son of mine. Matters of outlay and income that P.123have occurred in the past this son of mine is familiar with.’
“World-Honored One, when the impoverished son heard these words of his father, he was filled with great joy, having gained what he never had before, and he thought to himself, I originally had no mind to covet or seek such things. Yet now these stores of treasures have come of their own accord!
“World-Honored One, this old man with his great riches is none other than the thus come one, and we are all like the Buddha’s sons. The thus come one constantly tells us that we are his sons. But because of the three sufferings, World-Honored One, in the midst of birth and death we undergo burning anxieties, delusions, and ignorance, delighting in and clinging to lesser doctrines. But today the world-honored one causes us to ponder carefully, to cast aside the doctrines that are the filth of frivolous debate.
“We were diligent and exerted ourselves in this matter until we had attained nirvana, which is like one day’s wages. And once we had attained it, our hearts were filled with great joy and we considered that this was enough. At once we said to ourselves, ‘Because we have been diligent and exerted ourselves with regard to the Law of the Buddha, we have gained this breadth and wealth of understanding.’
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:08 pm

My remembering was less-than-exact, but there it is.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by DGA » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:03 pm

LS Chapter 4 is one of my favorite passages. Mostly, it is an allegory for the relation of Dharma teacher to student, describing indirectly but clearly the characteristics of an excellent teacher of Dharma. Related discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27114

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:49 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:08 pm
My remembering was less-than-exact, but there it is.
I don't get why you went this route in this thread ???...or what revalence it has to my reworking of basically...

Buddhism is all about the afterlife and not here and now. !!!!????

I always thought the Buddhist gods, the Buddha , the Bohdisatvas, worked with me during this life to guide and teach me somehow.

so that my present life is enhanced as well..as my next life i will be far more evolved.

The whole it happens and really kicks in when you die...is now the accepted Buddhist thought...

this to me..still..is not what it is supposed to be all about..I'm having a hard time seeing that it is just another death bed promise...
a promise of a better after life...with zero proof in this life...

what ever happened to practicing to attain enlightenment and live in society that knows you and sees your enlightenment and wonders whether they should also be trying this out...
or enlightenment proves to you that you did the right thing...
or hey i practiced to become enlightened and now i am...

dunno people...something is afoot here..
and what i was taught when i first encountered eastern thought..
TM said you got twenty years...Soka gakkai sang in groups.."We just got twenty years to go"

they were in steep competition at the time ...so they both just marketed it that way? TM was the first to say it happens in twenty years...thats what was told to me anyway back in early 70's

what about the Tibetans...The fastest way to enlightenment Mahayana and then Tantra....this sort of died out now and it's all about Mahamudra and /dzogchen and after you die for most people...

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by DGA » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:25 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:49 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:08 pm
My remembering was less-than-exact, but there it is.
I don't get why you went this route in this thread ???...or what revalence it has to my reworking of basically...

Buddhism is all about the afterlife and not here and now. !!!!????

I always thought the Buddhist gods, the Buddha , the Bohdisatvas, worked with me during this life to guide and teach me somehow.

so that my present life is enhanced as well..as my next life i will be far more evolved.

The whole it happens and really kicks in when you die...is now the accepted Buddhist thought...

this to me..still..is not what it is supposed to be all about..I'm having a hard time seeing that it is just another death bed promise...
a promise of a better after life...with zero proof in this life...

what ever happened to practicing to attain enlightenment and live in society that knows you and sees your enlightenment and wonders whether they should also be trying this out...
or enlightenment proves to you that you did the right thing...
or hey i practiced to become enlightened and now i am...

dunno people...something is afoot here..
and what i was taught when i first encountered eastern thought..
TM said you got twenty years...Soka gakkai sang in groups.."We just got twenty years to go"

they were in steep competition at the time ...so they both just marketed it that way? TM was the first to say it happens in twenty years...thats what was told to me anyway back in early 70's

what about the Tibetans...The fastest way to enlightenment Mahayana and then Tantra....this sort of died out now and it's all about Mahamudra and /dzogchen and after you die for most people...
What's the difference between this moment (this life), and the next life, and the space in between? Are all of them opportunities for Dharma practice, or is one better than the other?

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by kirtu » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:36 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:49 pm
and what i was taught when i first encountered eastern thought..
TM said you got twenty years...Soka gakkai sang in groups.."We just got twenty years to go"

they were in steep competition at the time ...so they both just marketed it that way? TM was the first to say it happens in twenty years...thats what was told to me anyway back in early 70's

Really? TM claimed that one could be enlightened in just 20 years? And Soka Gakkai actually sang a song referencing that too????

I'd have to ask what that was about? How could Soka Gakkai go down that road? Or were they talking primarily about transforming society around them?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Minobu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:18 pm

DGA wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:25 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:49 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:08 pm
My remembering was less-than-exact, but there it is.
I don't get why you went this route in this thread ???...or what revalence it has to my reworking of basically...

Buddhism is all about the afterlife and not here and now. !!!!????

I always thought the Buddhist gods, the Buddha , the Bohdisatvas, worked with me during this life to guide and teach me somehow.

so that my present life is enhanced as well..as my next life i will be far more evolved.

The whole it happens and really kicks in when you die...is now the accepted Buddhist thought...

this to me..still..is not what it is supposed to be all about..I'm having a hard time seeing that it is just another death bed promise...
a promise of a better after life...with zero proof in this life...

what ever happened to practicing to attain enlightenment and live in society that knows you and sees your enlightenment and wonders whether they should also be trying this out...
or enlightenment proves to you that you did the right thing...
or hey i practiced to become enlightened and now i am...

dunno people...something is afoot here..
and what i was taught when i first encountered eastern thought..
TM said you got twenty years...Soka gakkai sang in groups.."We just got twenty years to go"

they were in steep competition at the time ...so they both just marketed it that way? TM was the first to say it happens in twenty years...thats what was told to me anyway back in early 70's

what about the Tibetans...The fastest way to enlightenment Mahayana and then Tantra....this sort of died out now and it's all about Mahamudra and /dzogchen and after you die for most people...
What's the difference between this moment (this life), and the next life, and the space in between? Are all of them opportunities for Dharma practice, or is one better than the other?
if you are you asking me if all of them are opportunities for Dharma practice?
then i would say yes.

which is not what i am on about in this thread...


in this thread :focus:

once again...for those that might be confused by your posts towards what the thread is about. :rolling:

A lot of us are practicing stuff from various teachers and teachings that were presented during what is called the Kamakura era of Buddhist thought.

It seems i was wrong in thinking that the whole go to the pure land thing was not that important to people and the teachers.

I thought it's all about the here and now...Samsara and how our Karma and Merit inter plays out in our lives and what kinda life we live.

But even Nichiren Daishonin talks of the Tranquil Land and Eagle peak and probably even other pure lands we will all will eventually ,if we practice , meet in ..So He is basically the same as the others and it is all really just about who practices the correct practice to get to the Pure Land

so it is all about...it seems...this is the goal...and not what i thought it was...or maybe what i still think it is...

maybe this degenerate age affords this sort of view of practice and what it is all about...Maybe something else is lost..everyone is focusing on going to the pure land...

it's like what i thought and still maybe think Buddhism is about...IS LOST !!!!.

something i think is more relevant to practicing Buddhism..and the outcome...enlightenment in this life or at least a vaster better evolved life in Samsara due to a life long practice...you actually evolve and develop in this life...something one can see...before they die.

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Minobu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:24 pm

kirtu wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:36 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:49 pm
and what i was taught when i first encountered eastern thought..
TM said you got twenty years...Soka gakkai sang in groups.."We just got twenty years to go"

they were in steep competition at the time ...so they both just marketed it that way? TM was the first to say it happens in twenty years...thats what was told to me anyway back in early 70's

Really? TM claimed that one could be enlightened in just 20 years? And Soka Gakkai actually sang a song referencing that too????

I'd have to ask what that was about? How could Soka Gakkai go down that road? Or were they talking primarily about transforming society around them?

Kirt
when i first joined TM at 15...they said we could attain enlightenment in 20 years....

in Phase One soka Gakki they taught this as well..
here is a song that alludes to it...

* CRINGES *

Do your Gongyo early in the morning

Daimoku late at night

Going follow president Ikeda

make the planet peaceful and bright

Shakubuku is the way to kosen rufu

keep chanting
keep chanting
we just got 20 years to go...


this part..
we just got 20 years to go...
was never about kosen rufu in 20 years but enlightenment..
kosen rufu is a ten thousand year thing...

of course all this is brushed under the rug ..phase two came and changed a lot of what we were taught and then...welll i don;t know what phase they are in now...4.60 ...lol...who knows.

i recall talking about the 20 year thing and it was like ..Really...we said that...cause no one is enlightened in the gakki...lol... :crying:

narhwal90
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by narhwal90 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:53 pm

I started in NSA in 1988, been in SGI since the split. "20 years till enlightenment" was never mentioned as teaching- and none of the 30+ yr members I knew proposed anyone was enlightened- even Mr Toda & Mr Ikeda who some knew personally.. Perhaps you're right that some song lyrics contain that term (don't remember that one but there are many that come and go)- but thats a different thing entirely. The current "phase" will change when Mr Ikeda dies, then we'll see how things shake out.

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