I've been so wrong/pure lands

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:17 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:12 pm
You know what all this talk about bodhisattva attainments makes me want to do?

Have a good gongyo and rejoice in the Buddhadharma!
:cheers:
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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rory
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by rory » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:08 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:08 pm
This is kind of funny, maybe its homophobic, well, most likely its homophobic, but I'm gay so whatever.

In Buddhist Chinese, paṇḍaka is rendered phonetically: 般荼迦, "thistly people", 迦 appears to have no Semantic meaning.
Welcome, there are gay people here but so far I'm the lone lesbian; did you ever have a priest/monk tell you, that you could be born in a male body (female for you) in your next life to help resolve your 'problem.' I told him ad nauseam I had no desire to be born a man, I liked being a woman and was simply attracted to women, but he wouldn't have it *sigh.* I just tell myself: people have afflictions; the Dharma is true.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Coëmgenu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:27 pm

rory wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:08 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:08 pm
This is kind of funny, maybe its homophobic, well, most likely its homophobic, but I'm gay so whatever.

In Buddhist Chinese, paṇḍaka is rendered phonetically: 般荼迦, "thistly people", 迦 appears to have no Semantic meaning.
Welcome, there are gay people here but so far I'm the lone lesbian; did you ever have a priest/monk tell you, that you could be born in a male body (female for you) in your next life to help resolve your 'problem.' I told him ad nauseam I had no desire to be born a man, I liked being a woman and was simply attracted to women, but he wouldn't have it *sigh.* I just tell myself: people have afflictions; the Dharma is true.
gassho
Rory
I am rather lucky. No one ever speaks to me like that because no one ever thinks I am gay until they meet my partner.

And my partner is an Anglican, so very rarely comes to Buddhist spaces. I don't talk about myself a lot either, evidently this forum being the gradual exception.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

SunWuKong
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:59 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:27 pm
rory wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:08 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:08 pm
This is kind of funny, maybe its homophobic, well, most likely its homophobic, but I'm gay so whatever.

In Buddhist Chinese, paṇḍaka is rendered phonetically: 般荼迦, "thistly people", 迦 appears to have no Semantic meaning.
Welcome, there are gay people here but so far I'm the lone lesbian; did you ever have a priest/monk tell you, that you could be born in a male body (female for you) in your next life to help resolve your 'problem.' I told him ad nauseam I had no desire to be born a man, I liked being a woman and was simply attracted to women, but he wouldn't have it *sigh.* I just tell myself: people have afflictions; the Dharma is true.
gassho
Rory
I am rather lucky. No one ever speaks to me like that because no one ever thinks I am gay until they meet my partner.

And my partner is an Anglican, so very rarely comes to Buddhist spaces. I don't talk about myself a lot either, evidently this forum being the gradual exception.
I couldn't call myself gay, but I'm on the LGBTQ spectrum, a history of being attracted to boyish girls & girlish boys. In general only those close to me know this, some gay men figure it out
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Coëmgenu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:10 pm

Regarding what is perceived or unperceived by the Buddha-eye, I was recently reviewing the Tathágatagarbhasútra:

In a similar fashion [as the visual miracle preceeding], good sons, when I regard all beings with my buddha eye, I see that hidden within the kleshas [negative mental traits] of greed, desire, anger, and stupidity there is seated augustly and unmovingly the tathagata's wisdom, the tathagata's vision, and the tathagata's body. Good sons, all beings, though they find themselves with all sorts of kleshas, have a tathagatagarbha that is eternally unsullied, and that is replete with virtues no different from my own
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Minobu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:22 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:42 pm


If you have realized emptiness, you have no problem maintaining concentration, the former requires the latter.
are you referring to sunyata or some Dzogchen emptiness thing?
I am referring to the śūnyatā taught by the Buddha in the Mahāyāna Sūtras.
I have a problem with this.

one can have afflictions and still realize and experience sunyata .
One can have afflictions and fully realize compassion.

the next step is to be able to totally experience both compassion and emptiness.

in fact only with deep compassion can one realize emptiness fully.
and yet one can still have a wandering mind , an elephant mind, a monkey mind etc...

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:14 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:10 pm
Regarding what is perceived or unperceived by the Buddha-eye, I was recently reviewing the Tathágatagarbhasútra:

In a similar fashion [as the visual miracle preceeding], good sons, when I regard all beings with my buddha eye, I see that hidden within the kleshas [negative mental traits] of greed, desire, anger, and stupidity there is seated augustly and unmovingly the tathagata's wisdom, the tathagata's vision, and the tathagata's body. Good sons, all beings, though they find themselves with all sorts of kleshas, have a tathagatagarbha that is eternally unsullied, and that is replete with virtues no different from my own
Yes, precisely, buddhas see buddhas, not sentient beings.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Pero
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Pero » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:23 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:15 pm
Also, to clarify, he's not telling bodhisattvas to not teach, he's saying, don't associate with them.
Literally:

na ca paṇḍakasya dharmaṃ deśayati, na ca tena sārdhaṃ saṃstavaṃ karoti

Do not teach Dharma to paṇḍakas, nor should one associate with them.


It is a flat out imperative statement.
Uh oh, I checked what pandaka means and - aren't we pretty much all pandakas in our time? Or at least cutting it pretty close. :shrug:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:46 pm

Pero wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:23 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:15 pm
Also, to clarify, he's not telling bodhisattvas to not teach, he's saying, don't associate with them.
Literally:

na ca paṇḍakasya dharmaṃ deśayati, na ca tena sārdhaṃ saṃstavaṃ karoti

Do not teach Dharma to paṇḍakas, nor should one associate with them.


It is a flat out imperative statement.
Uh oh, I checked what pandaka means and - aren't we pretty much all pandakas in our time? Or at least cutting it pretty close. :shrug:
Something you are trying to tell us, Pero?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Pero
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Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Pero » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:46 pm
Pero wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:23 pm


Literally:

na ca paṇḍakasya dharmaṃ deśayati, na ca tena sārdhaṃ saṃstavaṃ karoti

Do not teach Dharma to paṇḍakas, nor should one associate with them.


It is a flat out imperative statement.
Uh oh, I checked what pandaka means and - aren't we pretty much all pandakas in our time? Or at least cutting it pretty close. :shrug:
Something you are trying to tell us, Pero?
ROFLMAO!

I was thinking of this: "ussuyapandaka - A voyeur, a man who gains sexual satisfaction from watching a man and a woman having sex, and only becomes sexually aroused after that." Doesn't watching porn come pretty close to that?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:06 pm

Pero wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:03 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:46 pm
Pero wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:37 pm

Uh oh, I checked what pandaka means and - aren't we pretty much all pandakas in our time? Or at least cutting it pretty close. :shrug:
Something you are trying to tell us, Pero?
ROFLMAO!

I was thinking of this: "ussuyapandaka - A voyeur, a man who gains sexual satisfaction from watching a man and a woman having sex, and only becomes sexually aroused after that." Doesn't watching porn come pretty close to that?
If you can only be aroused by watching porn, then yes. If you do not need porn to become aroused, then no.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Pero
Posts: 2167
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Pero » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:06 pm
Pero wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:03 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:46 pm


Something you are trying to tell us, Pero?
ROFLMAO!

I was thinking of this: "ussuyapandaka - A voyeur, a man who gains sexual satisfaction from watching a man and a woman having sex, and only becomes sexually aroused after that." Doesn't watching porn come pretty close to that?
If you can only be aroused by watching porn, then yes. If you do not need porn to become aroused, then no.
Ah. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by DGA » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:21 pm
illarraza wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:46 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:22 pm


No. https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 82367.html:

Here are the eighteen special attributes (aṣṭādaśāveṇikadharma):

1. The Tathāgata has no bodily defect (nāsti tathāgatasya skhalitam).

2. He has no vocal defect (nāsti ravitam).

3. He has no failure of memory (nāsti muṣitasmṛtitā).

4. He has no notion of variety (nāsti nāmātvasaṃjñā).

5. He does not have an unconcentrated mind (nāsty asamāhitaṃ cittam).

6. He does not have thoughtless indifference (nāsty apratisaṃkhyāyopekṣā).

7. He has no loss of zealousness (nāsti chandaparihāṇiḥ).

8. He has no loss of exertion (nāsti vīryaparihāṇiḥ.

9. He has no loss of mindfulness (nāsti smṛtiparihāṇiḥ).

10. He has no loss of wisdom (nāsti prajñāparihāṇiḥ).

11. He has no loss of liberation (nāsti vimuktiparihāṇiḥ).

12. He has no loss of the knowledge and vision of deliverance (nāsti vimuktijñmanadarśanapariāṇiḥ).

13. Every bodily action of the Tathāgata is preceded by knowledge and accompanies knowledge (sarvaṃ tathātagatasya kāyakarma jñānapūrvaṃgamaṃ jñānānuparivarti).

14. Every vocal action is preceded by knowledge and accompanies knowledge (sarvaṃ vākkarma jñānapūrvaṃgamaṃ jñānānuparivarti).

15. Every mental action is preceded by knowledge and accompanies knowledge (sarvaṃ manaskarma jñānapūrvaṃgamaṃ jñānānuparivarti).

16. He has non-attached and unobstructed knowledge about past time (atīte ’dhvany asaṅgam apratihataṃ jñmanaṃ darśanam).

17. He has non-attached and unobstructed knowledge about future time (anāgate ’dhvany asaṅgam apratihataṃ jñānaṃ darśanam). [Page 511]

18. He has non-attached and unobstructed knowledge about the present time (pratyutpanne ’dhvany asaṅgam apratihataṃ jñānaṃ darśanam).
The Buddha also taught that he attained Enlightenment for the first time under the tree. The Lotus Sutra has also demolished that earlier teaching, not to say that of your pie in the sky perfect (Christian-like) God-Buddha.
Mark, the 18 above listed special qualities are found in the Lotus Sūtra.

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:12 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:34 pm
so pandaka is a generic term for any m,ale that is not hetero sexual?
eunuchs born or dismembered are pandakas as well?

i find this repulsive...the teaching is flawed and i would like to know where you gug this stuff up and why are you teaching it?
There are five kinds of paṇḍakas; intersexed people, impotent men, homosexuals, eunuchs, and men who can only become aroused by watching others engaged in sexual intercourse.

The Lotus Sūtra states, in chapter 14 (chapter 13 in the Sanskrit and Tibetan recensions):

na ca paṇḍakasya dharmaṃ deśayati, na ca tena sārdhaṃ saṃstavaṃ karoti

Do not teach Dharma to paṇḍakas, nor should one associate with them.


It says also:

strīpaṇḍakāśca ye sattvāḥ saṃstavaṃ tairvivarjayet|

Avoid associating with female and paṇḍaka sentient beings.
These are inconvenient.

:coffee:

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by DGA » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:54 pm

DGA wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:39 pm
OK, I found the passage that illarraza was referring to in Chapter 15. It's early on in the chapter in The Threefold Lotus Sutra (Bunno Kato, trans.), on page 239.

This is the chapter that starts with a great earthquake, and the emergence of a multitude of bodhisattva-mahasattvas. Shakyamuni Buddha is greeted as follows:
Thereupon the four great bodhisattvas spoke thus in verse:

"Is the World-Honored One at ease,
With few ailments and few troubles?
In instructing all the living beings,
Is he free from weariness?
And are all the living
Readily accepting his teaching?
Do they cause the World-honored One
Not to get tired?"

Then the World-honored One, in the great assembly of the bodhisattvas, spoke thus: "Sot it is, so it is, my good sons! The Tathagata is at ease, with few ailments and few troubles. These beings are easy to transform and I am free from weariness. Wherefore? Because all these beings for generations of constantly received my instruction and worshiped and honored the former buddhas, cultivating roots of goodness..."
I have some other thoughts about this passage that may be appropriate for a different thread. For now, I have two thoughts.

This looks like a conventional exchange of niceties rather than a doctrinal discussion.

I'm not in a position to evaluate the translation of this passage. Does the English correspond to Kumarajiva's Chinese? to the Sanskrit?
I poked around a bit further on this question. I checked two other translations from Kumarajiva's Chinese (Burton Watson and Gene Reeves), and they say more or less the same as the Bunno Kato version does: few ailments and few worries.

However, I then checked the Leon Hurvitz translation. Here, the meaning differs significantly (page 227):
"Verily, verily, good men, the Thus Come One is comfortable, in good health and free of pain."
Hurvitz also follows Kumarajiva's Chinese. Does Hurvitz follow a different commentarial tradition from Watson, Reeves, and Kato? I'm trying to understand how Watson and the others arrived at their reading of the text.
Last edited by DGA on Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ricky
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Ricky » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:00 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:32 pm


These are inconvenient.

:coffee:
How so?

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by DGA » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:07 pm

Ricky wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:00 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:32 pm


These are inconvenient.

:coffee:
How so?
The Lotus Sutra is interesting in part because confounds many of the popular narratives that have been built up around it. The two posts I quoted give two examples of that.

There are others.

So when I say "these are inconvenient," I mean they are inconvenient from the perspective of someone who wishes to promote a particular narrative regarding this sutra that is contradicted by the text of the sutra itself. This is why the transformation of the naga princess's female body into a male body as described in the Sutra, for example, is a sore subject for many. That passage contradicts a commentarial tradition that claims (rightly in my opinion!) that it doesn't matter what gender your body corresponds to, Buddhahood is possible for you in this lifetime. The tradition (Zhiyi in this case) gets the Dharma right but the text wrong in that instance, in my opinion.

We all have to take responsibility for our understanding of the Dharma.

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Minobu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:09 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:54 pm
DGA wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:39 pm
OK, I found the passage that illarraza was referring to in Chapter 15. It's early on in the chapter in The Threefold Lotus Sutra (Bunno Kato, trans.), on page 239.

This is the chapter that starts with a great earthquake, and the emergence of a multitude of bodhisattva-mahasattvas. Shakyamuni Buddha is greeted as follows:
Thereupon the four great bodhisattvas spoke thus in verse:

"Is the World-Honored One at ease,
With few ailments and few troubles?
In instructing all the living beings,
Is he free from weariness?
And are all the living
Readily accepting his teaching?
Do they cause the World-honored One
Not to get tired?"

Then the World-honored One, in the great assembly of the bodhisattvas, spoke thus: "Sot it is, so it is, my good sons! The Tathagata is at ease, with few ailments and few troubles. These beings are easy to transform and I am free from weariness. Wherefore? Because all these beings for generations of constantly received my instruction and worshiped and honored the former buddhas, cultivating roots of goodness..."
I have some other thoughts about this passage that may be appropriate for a different thread. For now, I have two thoughts.

This looks like a conventional exchange of niceties rather than a doctrinal discussion.

I'm not in a position to evaluate the translation of this passage. Does the English correspond to Kumarajiva's Chinese? to the Sanskrit?
I poked around a bit further on this question. I checked two other translations from Kumarajiva's Chinese (Burton Watson and Gene Reeves), and they say more or less the same as the Bunno Kato version does: few ailments and few worries.

However, I then checked the Leon Hurvitz translation. Here, the meaning differs significantly (page 227):
"Verily, verily, good men, the Thus Come One is comfortable, in good health and free of pain."
Hurvitz also follows Kumarajiva's Chinese. Does Hurvitz follow a different commentarial tradition from Watson, Reeves, and Kato? I'm trying to understand how Watson and the others arrived at their reading of the text.
I've read where watson who was commissioned by Daisaku ikeda to do a translation...bent the translation from time to time to bolster gakki thinking on the matter...
so i do not read watson....hurvitz is more trust worthy in his translation as far as i am concerned.

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Minobu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:17 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:07 pm
Ricky wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:00 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:32 pm


These are inconvenient.

:coffee:
How so?
The Lotus Sutra is interesting in part because confounds many of the popular narratives that have been built up around it. The two posts I quoted give two examples of that.

There are others.

So when I say "these are inconvenient," I mean they are inconvenient from the perspective of someone who wishes to promote a particular narrative regarding this sutra that is contradicted by the text of the sutra itself. This is why the transformation of the naga princess's female body into a male body as described in the Sutra, for example, is a sore subject for many. That passage contradicts a commentarial tradition that claims (rightly in my opinion!) that it doesn't matter what gender your body corresponds to, Buddhahood is possible for you in this lifetime. The tradition (Zhiyi in this case) gets the Dharma right but the text wrong in that instance, in my opinion.

We all have to take responsibility for our understanding of the Dharma.
people cherry pick dharma or worse yet twist it to suit what they believe it is all about and lie to themselves in the process.

The actual conduct of a Bodhisattva in the Lotus Sutra would be impossible for me ...I accept that

so i practice with that in mind and know one day in some lifetime i shall find it all quite easy to comply with.

Dems Da Rules
this whole Buddhahood in one lifetime or as promised on your deathbed....well I "NOW" shall leave it down to...it makes the masses live a better life so why not...who am i to burst their bubble eh.

Ricky
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Ricky » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:19 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:07 pm
Ricky wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:00 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:32 pm


These are inconvenient.

:coffee:
How so?
The Lotus Sutra is interesting in part because confounds many of the popular narratives that have been built up around it. The two posts I quoted give two examples of that.

There are others.

So when I say "these are inconvenient," I mean they are inconvenient from the perspective of someone who wishes to promote a particular narrative regarding this sutra that is contradicted by the text of the sutra itself. This is why the transformation of the naga princess's female body into a male body as described in the Sutra, for example, is a sore subject for many. That passage contradicts a commentarial tradition that claims (rightly in my opinion!) that it doesn't matter what gender your body corresponds to, Buddhahood is possible for you in this lifetime. The tradition (Zhiyi in this case) gets the Dharma right but the text wrong in that instance, in my opinion.

We all have to take responsibility for our understanding of the Dharma.
In other words you are saying what Buddha said is wrong but what Zhiyi said is right? There may be some contradicting sounding things but I would find it difficult to tell the Buddha he is wrong.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:14 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:10 pm
Regarding what is perceived or unperceived by the Buddha-eye, I was recently reviewing the Tathágatagarbhasútra:

In a similar fashion [as the visual miracle preceeding], good sons, when I regard all beings with my buddha eye, I see that hidden within the kleshas [negative mental traits] of greed, desire, anger, and stupidity there is seated augustly and unmovingly the tathagata's wisdom, the tathagata's vision, and the tathagata's body. Good sons, all beings, though they find themselves with all sorts of kleshas, have a tathagatagarbha that is eternally unsullied, and that is replete with virtues no different from my own
Yes, precisely, buddhas see buddhas, not sentient beings.
The scripture actually doesn't have them seeing "Buddhas" in the most common sense of the word. Rather is has them seeing pure seeds nested inside affliction.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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