I've been so wrong/pure lands

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Queequeg
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:42 pm
The only conclusion I can draw is that these sentiments are reflective of the bias of the person who wrote the text down.
And that's quite possible, too. But then what do we make of the rest of the admonitions? Are those scribner biases also?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:50 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:45 pm

Illustrating this point, I just recalled the story of Sariputra who was on the verge of Buddhahood in the past such that when a brahmin asked him for his eye, he plucked it out and gave it to him. When the brahmin tossed the eye away in disgust, Sariputra lost his concentration, got angry, and wiped out the stores of good karma. Concentration is hard - that's why even though we've given our lives for family, friends and rulers more times than we can count, we're still here.
On the verge of buddhahood? Not possible. Otherwise, you are elevating the notion of one-pointedness to a ridiculous extreme.

I think you are confusing your story with that of Nāgārjuna's disciple, Āryadeva. In that version, Āryadeva gives his eye to a blind beggar women who promptly eats it. He experiences a moment of regret, and because of that, his eye was not magically restored.
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:51 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:47 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:42 pm
The only conclusion I can draw is that these sentiments are reflective of the bias of the person who wrote the text down.
And that's quite possible, too. But then what do we make of the rest of the admonitions? Are those scribner biases also?
Sure, why not? If you take a text critical pov of the sūtra, I think most scholars agree that Devadatta section was added quite late.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:51 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:47 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:42 pm
The only conclusion I can draw is that these sentiments are reflective of the bias of the person who wrote the text down.
And that's quite possible, too. But then what do we make of the rest of the admonitions? Are those scribner biases also?
Sure, why not? If you take a text critical pov of the sūtra, I think most scholars agree that Devadatta section was added quite late.
LOL. Have this cake, and eat it, too!
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by CedarTree » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:51 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:47 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:42 pm
The only conclusion I can draw is that these sentiments are reflective of the bias of the person who wrote the text down.
And that's quite possible, too. But then what do we make of the rest of the admonitions? Are those scribner biases also?
Sure, why not? If you take a text critical pov of the sūtra, I think most scholars agree that Devadatta section was added quite late.
That's hard to hear because I have been basing a lot of hopes on that! :crying:

Practice, Practice, Practice

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:57 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:54 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:51 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:47 pm

And that's quite possible, too. But then what do we make of the rest of the admonitions? Are those scribner biases also?
Sure, why not? If you take a text critical pov of the sūtra, I think most scholars agree that Devadatta section was added quite late.
LOL. Have this cake, and eat it, too!

Well, all those people need the Dharma most, one would imagine. One can well imagine this is a penetration of brahmanical bias.

So you have on the one hand the Buddha telling us, "I am the father of all sentient beings" and on the other saying, "Don't teach Dharma to this sentient being, and that sentient being..."
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:50 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:45 pm

Illustrating this point, I just recalled the story of Sariputra who was on the verge of Buddhahood in the past such that when a brahmin asked him for his eye, he plucked it out and gave it to him. When the brahmin tossed the eye away in disgust, Sariputra lost his concentration, got angry, and wiped out the stores of good karma. Concentration is hard - that's why even though we've given our lives for family, friends and rulers more times than we can count, we're still here.
On the verge of buddhahood? Not possible. Otherwise, you are elevating the notion of one-pointedness to a ridiculous extreme.

I think you are confusing your story with that of Nāgārjuna's disciple, Āryadeva. In that version, Āryadeva gives his eye to a blind beggar women who promptly eats it. He experiences a moment of regret, and because of that, his eye was not magically restored.
No, its definitely a story of Sariputra. I got the details wrong - not sure the actual source. The point was that he renounced the bodhisattva path, thereby setting himself back significantly. I've read versions where he then sank into samsara for a while before getting back on the path. Point stands, its easy to lop off your arm compared to the concentration needed to really advance on the path.

https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/db_01.htm
About sixty aeons ago, Sariputra vowed to practise the way of Bodhisattva and offer alms to the needy. He was willing to give away all his property, even his body and life.

One day, a deva disguised himself as a young man to test Sariputra's determination to practise the Right Way. He cried sadly when he saw Sariputra walking towards him. Sariputra approached him and asked what had happened. "My mother is suffering from an incurable disease and the physician said that in order to cure her disease, an eyeball of a monk is needed to decoct medicinal herbs. But where can I find a monk's eyeball?" replied the young man who was still crying sadly.

Sariputra thought since he himself was a monk, why not offer one of his eyeballs to the young man? Besides, he would still be able to see with the other eye. Therefore, despite the pain, Sariputra dug out his left eyeball and gave it to the young man. However, the young man exclaimed: " Oh no! The physician said that only the right eyeball can cure my mother."

Sariputra was very shocked to hear that, but he only blamed himself for not asking the young man before digging out his eyeball. Determined to help the young man, Sariputra bravely dug out his right eyeball. Without thanking Sariputra, the young man took the eyeball and smelled it. Then he threw it on the ground and scolded Sariputra: "Your eyeball is very smelly! How can it be used to decoct medicinal herbs for my mother? "After that, he even trampled on the eyeball.

Though Sariputra could not see, he could still hear. He then thought: "It is difficult to save all beings and be a Bodhisattva. I think I'd better concentrate on the practice of self-salvation!"

Just then many devas appeared in the sky. They said to Sariputra: "Don't be dejected. What has just happened is merely our arrangement to test your determination to practise the way of a bodhisattva. You should bravely progress and continue your practice."

Upon hearing that, Sariputra resumed his compassion to save others. For the next sixty aeons, he never stopped his spiritual practice. During the lifetime when he met Buddha, he not only achieved enlightenment but also attained divine vision.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Minobu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:42 pm


If you have realized emptiness, you have no problem maintaining concentration, the former requires the latter.
are you referring to sunyata or some Dzogchen emptiness thing?

recall the whole problem with a reference to the Dzogchen emptiness thing that some high teacher guy taught using that word...and the dzogchen community jumped on me for it was not really Sunyata at all...
i knew it was not what sunyata was about...and was made fun of by the dzogchen community for ignorance on the subject...it was clarified that it was some thing described as emptiness in dzogchen...

i realize Sunyata but my concentration waxes and wanes at times.

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:57 pm
So you have on the one hand the Buddha telling us, "I am the father of all sentient beings" and on the other saying, "Don't teach Dharma to this sentient being, and that sentient being..."
Apples and oranges. The Buddha on one hand explains his identity, on the other, he's advising others how to practice. There isn't really a contradiction there.

Just to bring this particular chapter into context, this is not the practice in the Nichiren tradition. The Peaceful Practices is considered a provisional teaching. Nichiren's practice is the practice of Sadaparibhuta who approached all four classes of people and honored their buddhahood.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Minobu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:14 pm

this thread sort has me like :

Image

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Queequeg
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:15 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:06 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:57 pm
So you have on the one hand the Buddha telling us, "I am the father of all sentient beings" and on the other saying, "Don't teach Dharma to this sentient being, and that sentient being..."
Apples and oranges. The Buddha on one hand explains his identity, on the other, he's advising others how to practice. There isn't really a contradiction there.

Just to bring this particular chapter into context, this is not the practice in the Nichiren tradition. The Peaceful Practices is considered a provisional teaching. Nichiren's practice is the practice of Sadaparibhuta who approached all four classes of people and honored their buddhahood.
Also, to clarify, he's not telling bodhisattvas to not teach, he's saying, don't associate with them. Don't associate with single women or children either. If contemporary religious who take vows of celibacy are any indication, temptation, lust and sex are major obstacles.

Echoing others above, is there any surprise here about the fear of sex in the Buddhist canon? In the Vinaya, what's the first act of defeat that is addressed?

I understand this is an interesting issue and could be of concern for many, but context here is critical.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:21 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:02 pm

No, its definitely a story of Sariputra. I got the details wrong - not sure the actual source. The point was that he renounced the bodhisattva path, thereby setting himself back significantly. I've read versions where he then sank into samsara for a while before getting back on the path. Point stands, its easy to lop off your arm compared to the concentration needed to really advance on the path.

If you have not realized emptiness, then yes — however, Shariputra was not an bodhisattva mahāsattva at this point, he was an ordinary bodhisattva, below the path of seeing.

A bodhisattva mahāsattva, according to the Sarvapuṇya-samuccaya-samādhi sūtra, cannot fall into the faulty state of a śrāvaka. The Nirvana Sūtra states that a bodhisattva mahāsattva cannot be distracted by either the māra of afflictions or the māra of the aggregates and also says they have no fear of desire, hatred, ignorance, birth, aging, illness, death, or falling into hell realm, animal realm or preta realm because they dwell on the stage of fearlessness. The Pañcaviṃśatisāhasrikā-prajñāpāramitā states that a bodhisattva who courses in emptiness cannot fall to the stage of a pratyekabuddha or a śrāvaka.
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:22 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:42 pm


If you have realized emptiness, you have no problem maintaining concentration, the former requires the latter.
are you referring to sunyata or some Dzogchen emptiness thing?
I am referring to the śūnyatā taught by the Buddha in the Mahāyāna Sūtras.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:23 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:15 pm
Also, to clarify, he's not telling bodhisattvas to not teach, he's saying, don't associate with them.
Literally:

na ca paṇḍakasya dharmaṃ deśayati, na ca tena sārdhaṃ saṃstavaṃ karoti

Do not teach Dharma to paṇḍakas, nor should one associate with them.


It is a flat out imperative statement.
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by PuerAzaelis » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:24 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:14 pm
this thread sort has me like :
Image
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by CedarTree » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:24 pm

Blamed only himself hey.... :tongue:

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:02 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:50 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:45 pm

Illustrating this point, I just recalled the story of Sariputra who was on the verge of Buddhahood in the past such that when a brahmin asked him for his eye, he plucked it out and gave it to him. When the brahmin tossed the eye away in disgust, Sariputra lost his concentration, got angry, and wiped out the stores of good karma. Concentration is hard - that's why even though we've given our lives for family, friends and rulers more times than we can count, we're still here.
On the verge of buddhahood? Not possible. Otherwise, you are elevating the notion of one-pointedness to a ridiculous extreme.

I think you are confusing your story with that of Nāgārjuna's disciple, Āryadeva. In that version, Āryadeva gives his eye to a blind beggar women who promptly eats it. He experiences a moment of regret, and because of that, his eye was not magically restored.
No, its definitely a story of Sariputra. I got the details wrong - not sure the actual source. The point was that he renounced the bodhisattva path, thereby setting himself back significantly. I've read versions where he then sank into samsara for a while before getting back on the path. Point stands, its easy to lop off your arm compared to the concentration needed to really advance on the path.

https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/db_01.htm
About sixty aeons ago, Sariputra vowed to practise the way of Bodhisattva and offer alms to the needy. He was willing to give away all his property, even his body and life.

One day, a deva disguised himself as a young man to test Sariputra's determination to practise the Right Way. He cried sadly when he saw Sariputra walking towards him. Sariputra approached him and asked what had happened. "My mother is suffering from an incurable disease and the physician said that in order to cure her disease, an eyeball of a monk is needed to decoct medicinal herbs. But where can I find a monk's eyeball?" replied the young man who was still crying sadly.

Sariputra thought since he himself was a monk, why not offer one of his eyeballs to the young man? Besides, he would still be able to see with the other eye. Therefore, despite the pain, Sariputra dug out his left eyeball and gave it to the young man. However, the young man exclaimed: " Oh no! The physician said that only the right eyeball can cure my mother."

Sariputra was very shocked to hear that, but he only blamed himself for not asking the young man before digging out his eyeball. Determined to help the young man, Sariputra bravely dug out his right eyeball. Without thanking Sariputra, the young man took the eyeball and smelled it. Then he threw it on the ground and scolded Sariputra: "Your eyeball is very smelly! How can it be used to decoct medicinal herbs for my mother? "After that, he even trampled on the eyeball.

Though Sariputra could not see, he could still hear. He then thought: "It is difficult to save all beings and be a Bodhisattva. I think I'd better concentrate on the practice of self-salvation!"

Just then many devas appeared in the sky. They said to Sariputra: "Don't be dejected. What has just happened is merely our arrangement to test your determination to practise the way of a bodhisattva. You should bravely progress and continue your practice."

Upon hearing that, Sariputra resumed his compassion to save others. For the next sixty aeons, he never stopped his spiritual practice. During the lifetime when he met Buddha, he not only achieved enlightenment but also attained divine vision.

Practice, Practice, Practice

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:47 pm

It seems Ven Dharmarakṣa was potentially unaware of the meaning of paṇḍaka. In T09n0263/正法華經 it is rendered as "those with leprosy" or "those with skin diseases" (癩病).

Or it was taken for granted that paṇḍakas (paṇḍakāḥ? paṇḍakāni?) had skin diseases at the time.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:08 pm

This is kind of funny, maybe its homophobic, well, most likely its homophobic, but I'm gay so whatever.

In Buddhist Chinese, paṇḍaka is rendered phonetically: 般荼迦, "thistly people", 迦 appears to have no Semantic meaning.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Losal Samten » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:21 pm
If you have not realized emptiness, then yes — however, Shariputra was not an bodhisattva mahāsattva at this point, he was an ordinary bodhisattva, below the path of seeing.

A bodhisattva mahāsattva, according to the Sarvapuṇya-samuccaya-samādhi sūtra, cannot fall into the faulty state of a śrāvaka. The Nirvana Sūtra states that a bodhisattva mahāsattva cannot be distracted by either the māra of afflictions or the māra of the aggregates and also says they have no fear of desire, hatred, ignorance, birth, aging, illness, death, or falling into hell realm, animal realm or preta realm because they dwell on the stage of fearlessness. The Pañcaviṃśatisāhasrikā-prajñāpāramitā states that a bodhisattva who courses in emptiness cannot fall to the stage of a pratyekabuddha or a śrāvaka.
What's the title of a pure bhumi'd bodhisattva?
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

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Queequeg
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:12 pm

You know what all this talk about bodhisattva attainments makes me want to do?

Have a good gongyo and rejoice in the Buddhadharma!
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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