I've been so wrong/pure lands

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Coëmgenu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:57 pm

Some Buddhisms, not naming any in particular, not even the Buddhism of this subforum necessarily, seem to insist that ordinary beings are already completely enlightenment Buddhas & that there is no progress to be made, no afflictions to be lost, the radical thing is when this is believed of both the ultimate & conventional perspectives. It makes for a very triumphalist Buddhadharma, in which everyone is on a nonretrograding coaster for awakening, and there is no need to practice anything ever, because the results of the practice are already in fruition.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:19 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:57 pm
Some Buddhisms, not naming any in particular, not even the Buddhism of this subforum necessarily, seem to insist that ordinary beings are already completely enlightenment Buddhas & that there is no progress to be made, no afflictions to be lost, the radical thing is when this is believed of both the ultimate & conventional perspectives. It makes for a very triumphalist Buddhadharma, in which everyone is on a nonretrograding coaster for awakening, and there is no need to practice anything ever, because the results of the practice are already in fruition.
This kind of "Buddhism" is as far removed from Buddhadharma as Advaita Vedanta.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:42 pm
The afflictions that cause you, a buddha, to take rebirth in samsara. You can waffle all you like, but the fact of the matter is that if you are not practicing Dharma to alleviate the suffering caused by afflictions for yourself and others, you have not understood the point of Buddhadharma at all, and are wasting your timel. I suspect you are practicing Dharma to alleviate the suffering caused by afflictions for yourself and others, so your protest is merely rhetorical posturing.
To paraphrase 50 Cent, "I ain't gonna spell it out for you [fellas] all the time. Are you illiterate, [brother]? You can't read between the lines?"

And to quote myself:
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:18 pm
(And so ends my zen master in a motley bit)
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:05 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:56 pm


And to quote myself:
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:18 pm
(And so ends my zen master in a motley bit)
And to quote myself:
rhetorical posturing
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:09 pm

Image
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Bois de Santal
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Bois de Santal » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:34 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:57 pm
Some Buddhisms, not naming any in particular, not even the Buddhism of this subforum necessarily, seem to insist that ordinary beings are already completely enlightenment Buddhas & that there is no progress to be made, no afflictions to be lost, the radical thing is when this is believed of both the ultimate & conventional perspectives. It makes for a very triumphalist Buddhadharma, in which everyone is on a nonretrograding coaster for awakening, and there is no need to practice anything ever, because the results of the practice are already in fruition.
Some buddhisms, yes, but does anyone take them seriously today, or even hundreds of years ago ?

I remember reading a passage that Stone quotes in her book on Hongaku Shiso, from Dogen which basically could be summarized as 'without practice and study there can be no buddhism'.* So we have two major figures of the Kamakura period who did not buy into this argument that we are all buddhas anyway, so there is no need to bother.

*Students of the gosho will immediately recognise that citation.

So even though there is no path in most/many of the Japanese buddhist schools, because enlightenment is not linear, there must be effort (and the right effort at that). It doesn't just happen.

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Queequeg
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:53 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:09 pm
All this concern with where a Buddha attains enlightenment is a problem of supposing enlightenment is gained rather than what we are.
If you wish to regard yourself as a buddha encased in afflictions, that is just fine. Now, about those afflictions...
Distinguishing afflictions in that way is a wrong view for us. Bodhi expresses as afflictions - and it follows afflictions express as bodhi. It depends on the view. Buddha sees the complete adornment of the Saha world. We see it as impure. Devadatta sees it engulfed in flames and torture. Bodhisattva sees a field of merit to be tended like a garden.

We purify ourselves and the world by cultivating correct view which, until we attain awakening we take on faith. This correct view enables us to correctly see ourselves as the media through which the Buddha's pure and far reaching voice reverberates in the world - when we read the sutra with our bodies we become the expression of the Buddha's perfect teaching. Reading the sutra with the body means to cause people to hear the Buddha's voice - perfect practice for oneself and others. Each in turn who reverberates with the Buddha's voice amplifies and causes the purity of the world to be manifest.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:57 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:52 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:53 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:09 pm
All this concern with where a Buddha attains enlightenment is a problem of supposing enlightenment is gained rather than what we are.
If you wish to regard yourself as a buddha encased in afflictions, that is just fine. Now, about those afflictions...
Distinguishing afflictions in that way is a wrong view for us. Bodhi expresses as afflictions - and it follows afflictions express as bodhi. It depends on the view.
Oh yawn. Theory is great until you stub your toe. These kinds of sentiments roll nicely off the tongue and make one feel good, until the road rage sets in...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

narhwal90
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:10 pm

If thats the theory that motivates one's practice, then the training is there when the toe is stubbed and the jerk cuts in front. Its easy to only talk the talk in any practice.

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Queequeg
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:57 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:52 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:53 pm


If you wish to regard yourself as a buddha encased in afflictions, that is just fine. Now, about those afflictions...
Distinguishing afflictions in that way is a wrong view for us. Bodhi expresses as afflictions - and it follows afflictions express as bodhi. It depends on the view.
Oh yawn. Theory is great until you stub your toe. These kinds of sentiments roll nicely off the tongue and make one feel good, until the road rage sets in...
LOL. I don't even really know how to respond to the attitude.

This actually is our practice. We're taught to uphold this even at the cost of our lives. This has been practiced and demonstrated over the centuries by many. It is the ideal we strive for, however imperfectly. That's also the point - this is the place of practice where the goal is achieved.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:22 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:20 pm
It is the ideal we strive for, however imperfectly.
Hence, all the stubbed toes and road rage.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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CedarTree
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by CedarTree » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:22 pm

yah I was surprised to see Malcolm say that too since he is about the most prolific theory proponent on DW. :P
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:57 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:52 pm


Distinguishing afflictions in that way is a wrong view for us. Bodhi expresses as afflictions - and it follows afflictions express as bodhi. It depends on the view.
Oh yawn. Theory is great until you stub your toe. These kinds of sentiments roll nicely off the tongue and make one feel good, until the road rage sets in...
LOL. I don't even really know how to respond to the attitude.

This actually is our practice. We're taught to uphold this even at the cost of our lives. This has been practiced and demonstrated over the centuries by many. It is the ideal we strive for, however imperfectly. That's also the point - this is the place of practice where the goal is achieved.

Practice, Practice, Practice

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Queequeg
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:27 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:10 pm
If thats the theory that motivates one's practice, then the training is there when the toe is stubbed and the jerk cuts in front. Its easy to only talk the talk in any practice.
Malcolm knows well that view guides practice. I'm not sure why the negativity.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

narhwal90
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:40 pm

Everyone is prone, next time it might be you.

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:40 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:27 pm
narhwal90 wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:10 pm
If thats the theory that motivates one's practice, then the training is there when the toe is stubbed and the jerk cuts in front. Its easy to only talk the talk in any practice.
Malcolm knows well that view guides practice. I'm not sure why the negativity.
It is very easy to delude oneself with this kind of view. It is easy to kid oneself.

Of course, if one is perfectly honest with oneself, one will recognize when desire is desire, ignorance is ignorance, and hatred is hatred, and not an expression of anything other than a cause of karma which in turn results only in suffering.

Now if one knows and recognizes desire as desire when desire arises, and so on, then maybe one can say that at that moment bodhi begins to dawn every so slightly if that desire etc., does not lead to action which in turn leads inevitably to suffering. But if one excuses desire, etc., as bodhi and merely continues to inflame the three poisons, soon one will be joining all the buddhas in hell who don't know they are buddhas. Why, because they, like oneself, did not recognize the three poisons as the three poisons.

The problem with forums like these is that it is easy to have a view in one's mouth.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:40 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:27 pm
narhwal90 wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:10 pm
If thats the theory that motivates one's practice, then the training is there when the toe is stubbed and the jerk cuts in front. Its easy to only talk the talk in any practice.
Malcolm knows well that view guides practice. I'm not sure why the negativity.
It is very easy to delude oneself with this kind of view. It is easy to kid oneself.

Of course, if one is perfectly honest with oneself, one will recognize when desire is desire, ignorance is ignorance, and hatred is hatred, and not an expression of anything other than a cause of karma which in turn results only in suffering.

Now if one knows and recognizes desire as desire when desire arises, and so on, then maybe one can say that at that moment bodhi begins to dawn every so slightly if that desire etc., does not lead to action which in turn leads inevitably to suffering. But if one excuses desire, etc., as bodhi and merely continues to inflame the three poisons, soon one will be joining all the buddhas in hell who don't know they are buddhas. Why, because they, like oneself, did not recognize the three poisons as the three poisons.

The problem with forums like these is that it is easy to have a view in one's mouth.
So, it seems to make more sense that instead of jumping to negative assumptions about others, we ought to give our fellows the benefit of the doubt.

I've had my bouts of sectarianism and strife that had their genesis in my own assumptions and projections about others. I recognize this as a shortcoming and try not to do that.

You might take your own medicine. Talk about lip service.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Malcolm
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:38 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:14 pm

So, it seems to make more sense that instead of jumping to negative assumptions about others, we ought to give our fellows the benefit of the doubt.
I think the Buddha said it the best, "Mañjuśrī, seeing afflictions is bodhi."

My observation of sentient beings is that they are afflicted. Plain and simple. There are no sentient beings free from affliction by definition. Why? Because they do not see afflictions.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Pero
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Pero » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:57 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:52 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:53 pm


If you wish to regard yourself as a buddha encased in afflictions, that is just fine. Now, about those afflictions...
Distinguishing afflictions in that way is a wrong view for us. Bodhi expresses as afflictions - and it follows afflictions express as bodhi. It depends on the view.
Oh yawn. Theory is great until you stub your toe. These kinds of sentiments roll nicely off the tongue and make one feel good, until the road rage sets in...
Probably not really related to the topic but years ago upon hearing about road rage I thought to myself how crazy Americans are, like road rage WTF? Then one evening after working for 12 hours straight, being tired and really agitated due to it, I found myself driving home behind someone who drove 30 in 50 km/h zone and 45 in a 70 km/h zone. After numerous curses and daydreams about simply ramming the guy with my car it occured to me "ah so this is how road rage happens".....
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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kirtu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by kirtu » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:38 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:14 pm

So, it seems to make more sense that instead of jumping to negative assumptions about others, we ought to give our fellows the benefit of the doubt.
I think the Buddha said it the best, "Mañjuśrī, seeing afflictions is bodhi."

My observation of sentient beings is that they are afflicted. Plain and simple. There are no sentient beings free from affliction by definition. Why? Because they do not see afflictions.
Many do see afflictions (the gross ones). But they do not see the gross afflictions as harmful. Even the gross afflictions are not seen for what they actually are. For example, some people see afflicted sexual desire (beyond just expieriencing it) as actually negative but are still unable to deal with it.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Coëmgenu
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:01 pm

kirtu wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:13 pm
For example, some people see afflicted sexual desire (beyond just expieriencing it) as actually negative but are still unable to deal with it.

Kirt
They/I are/am certainly most unable and/or unready. My genitals, and associated mental objects that accompany them, have gotten me in more trouble, orientation aside, than any other "part" of my body. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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