What about the paṇḍaka variant from the Pāli commentaries who is only a paṇḍaka when the moon is waning, pakkhapaṇḍaka? Where does this tradition of paṇḍaka-variant classification come from?Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:12 pmThere are five kinds of paṇḍakas; intersexed people, impotent men, homosexuals, eunuchs, and men who can only become aroused by watching others engaged in sexual intercourse.
The Lotus Sūtra states, in chapter 14 (chapter 13 in the Sanskrit and Tibetan recensions):
na ca paṇḍakasya dharmaṃ deśayati, na ca tena sārdhaṃ saṃstavaṃ karoti
Do not teach Dharma to paṇḍakas, nor should one associate with them.
It says also:
strīpaṇḍakāśca ye sattvāḥ saṃstavaṃ tairvivarjayet|
Avoid associating with female and paṇḍaka sentient beings.
I've been so wrong/pure lands
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛
In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.
胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛
In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.
胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
And female sentient beings..... Oh man....... The road to Buddhahood is going to be very very long.
Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:12 pmThere are five kinds of paṇḍakas; intersexed people, impotent men, homosexuals, eunuchs, and men who can only become aroused by watching others engaged in sexual intercourse.
The Lotus Sūtra states, in chapter 14 (chapter 13 in the Sanskrit and Tibetan recensions):
na ca paṇḍakasya dharmaṃ deśayati, na ca tena sārdhaṃ saṃstavaṃ karoti
Do not teach Dharma to paṇḍakas, nor should one associate with them.
It says also:
strīpaṇḍakāśca ye sattvāḥ saṃstavaṃ tairvivarjayet|
Avoid associating with female and paṇḍaka sentient beings.
Practice, Practice, Practice
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
I am familiar with the pali commentaries around the vinaya to some extent and I don't remember this.
Pandaka is clearly defined as what Malcolm stated. Nagas are also not suppose to be ordained if I remember it.
Pandaka is clearly defined as what Malcolm stated. Nagas are also not suppose to be ordained if I remember it.
Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:13 pmWhat about the paṇḍaka variant from the Pāli commentaries who is only a paṇḍaka when the moon is waning, pakkhapaṇḍaka? Where does this tradition of paṇḍaka-variant classification come from?Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:12 pmThere are five kinds of paṇḍakas; intersexed people, impotent men, homosexuals, eunuchs, and men who can only become aroused by watching others engaged in sexual intercourse.
The Lotus Sūtra states, in chapter 14 (chapter 13 in the Sanskrit and Tibetan recensions):
na ca paṇḍakasya dharmaṃ deśayati, na ca tena sārdhaṃ saṃstavaṃ karoti
Do not teach Dharma to paṇḍakas, nor should one associate with them.
It says also:
strīpaṇḍakāśca ye sattvāḥ saṃstavaṃ tairvivarjayet|
Avoid associating with female and paṇḍaka sentient beings.
Practice, Practice, Practice
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
It is a bit strange that bodhisattva mahāsattvas should be enjoined from associating with anyone, since presumably they are bodhisattvas on the pure stages who have realized patience towards the non-arising of phenomena and can without a second thought offer their eyes or even their heads to those in need. How could such a highly realized being be distracted by anything?
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
You're assuming these are bodhisattvas who have advanced that far.Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:19 pmIt is a bit strange that bodhisattva mahāsattvas should be enjoined from associating with anyone, since presumably they are bodhisattvas on the pure stages who have realized patience towards the non-arising of phenomena and can without a second thought offer their eyes or even their heads to those in need. How could such a highly realized being be distracted by anything?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter
There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter
There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
My bad —— a bodhisattva mahāsattva is any bodhisattva on the stages -- but still my point stands, if one is able to offer one's eyes or limbs sentient beings, how could one possibly be distracted on the path since one has now realized emptiness?Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:24 pmYou're assuming these are bodhisattvas who have advanced that far.Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:19 pmIt is a bit strange that bodhisattva mahāsattvas should be enjoined from associating with anyone, since presumably they are bodhisattvas on the pure stages who have realized patience towards the non-arising of phenomena and can without a second thought offer their eyes or even their heads to those in need. How could such a highly realized being be distracted by anything?
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
I can only speak to my own experience, but personally, I am rarely surprised when aversion to homosexuals, transexuals, even demographics as innocuous as heterosexual transverstites, creeps into organized religions. Let's face it, most religions are homophobic (etc.), though religions differ in their precise relations with, and often objections to, homosexuality et al., and to simply say that "religions are homophobic (etc. i.e. transphobic & whatnot)" does not acknowledge this difference within religions.
For instance, most Buddhisms are anti-sex, generally and crudely speaking. Most religions are actually, in one way or another, anti-sex, for good reasons or bad (what better way to control people than control their access to sexual pleasure?). Heterosexual sex gets a pass because it is quite literally necessary for the survival of the species and care for the elderly as they age. Homosexual sex is simply an expression of relation between two people, be it predominantly sexual or be it predominantly romantic. In a religion where one is supposed to be shedding attachments to worldly things, other people included, they are not going to look particularly favourably on relationships that are not conceived of as absolutely "necessary".
Obviously this does not apply to all Buddhisms, and different Buddhisms address with friction differently. Renunciant Buddhisms, for instance, IMO are less likely to be open to paṇḍaka etc.
For instance, the same section has a great deal of prohibitions against various manners and settings of/for having interactions with women in.
Ven Zhiyi, in one of his more interesting moments, actually contradicts the Lotus Sutra in his commentary on the Lotus Sutra, and says that the textus receptus is wrong, indirectly. That quote is in Rory's signature.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛
In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.
胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛
In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.
胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
These days people call that the Down Low.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter
There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter
There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
BingoCoëmgenu wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:26 pmI can only speak to my own experience, but personally, I am rarely surprised when aversion to homosexuals, transexuals, even demographics as innocuous as heterosexual transverstites, creeps into organized religions. Let's face it, most religions are homophobic (etc.), though religions differ in their precise relations with, and often objections to, homosexuality et al., and to simply say that "religions are homophobic" does not acknowledge this difference within religions.
For instance, most Buddhisms are anti-sex, generally and crudely speaking. Most religions are actually, in one way or another, anti-sex, for good reasons or bad (what better way to control people than control their access to sexual pleasure?). Heterosexual sex gets a pass because it is quite literally necessary for the survival of the species and care for the elderly as they age. Homosexual sex is simply an expression of relation between two people, be it predominantly sexual or be it predominantly romantic. In a religion where one is supposed to be shedding attachments to worldly things, other people included, they are not going to look particularly favourably on relationships that are not conceived of as absolutely "necessary".
For instance, the same section has a great deal of prohibitions against various manners and settings of/for having interactions with women in.
Ven Zhiyi, in one of his more interesting moments, actually contradicts the Lotus Sutra in his commentary on the Lotus Sutra, and says that the textus receptus is wrong, indirectly. That quote is in Rory's signature.
Practice, Practice, Practice
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
What conclusion ought be drawn?Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:25 pmIt is basic to the definition of a bodhisattva mahāsattva.Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:24 pmYou're assuming these are bodhisattvas who have advanced that far.Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:19 pm
It is a bit strange that bodhisattva mahāsattvas should be enjoined from associating with anyone, since presumably they are bodhisattvas on the pure stages who have realized patience towards the non-arising of phenomena and can without a second thought offer their eyes or even their heads to those in need. How could such a highly realized being be distracted by anything?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter
There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter
There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
It's all just religious writings and we need to relax a bit and not allow texts to get us more lost and confused.
Least we become ISIS.......
Least we become ISIS.......
Practice, Practice, Practice
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
Sometimes its hard to tell, but if issues are posed in a misleading manner, then that tends to the conclusion that its trolling.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter
There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter
There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
My bad —— a bodhisattva mahāsattva is any bodhisattva on the stages -- but still my point stands, if one is able to offer one's eyes or limbs sentient beings, how could one possibly be distracted on the path since one has now realized emptiness?
The only conclusion I can draw is that these sentiments are reflective of the bias of the person who wrote the text down.
- Losal Samten
- Posts: 1480
- Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
Arya bodhisattvas are those on any bhumi, and mahasattvas are those on the pure bhumis, no?Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:35 pmMy bad —— a bodhisattva mahāsattva is any bodhisattva on the stages -- but still my point stands, if one is able to offer one's eyes or limbs sentient beings, how could one possibly be distracted on the path since one has now realized emptiness?
The only conclusion I can draw is that these sentiments are reflective of the bias of the person who wrote the text down.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
OK, I found the passage that illarraza was referring to in Chapter 15. It's early on in the chapter in The Threefold Lotus Sutra (Bunno Kato, trans.), on page 239.
This is the chapter that starts with a great earthquake, and the emergence of a multitude of bodhisattva-mahasattvas. Shakyamuni Buddha is greeted as follows:
This looks like a conventional exchange of niceties rather than a doctrinal discussion.
I'm not in a position to evaluate the translation of this passage. Does the English correspond to Kumarajiva's Chinese? to the Sanskrit?
This is the chapter that starts with a great earthquake, and the emergence of a multitude of bodhisattva-mahasattvas. Shakyamuni Buddha is greeted as follows:
I have some other thoughts about this passage that may be appropriate for a different thread. For now, I have two thoughts.Thereupon the four great bodhisattvas spoke thus in verse:
"Is the World-Honored One at ease,
With few ailments and few troubles?
In instructing all the living beings,
Is he free from weariness?
And are all the living
Readily accepting his teaching?
Do they cause the World-honored One
Not to get tired?"
Then the World-honored One, in the great assembly of the bodhisattvas, spoke thus: "Sot it is, so it is, my good sons! The Tathagata is at ease, with few ailments and few troubles. These beings are easy to transform and I am free from weariness. Wherefore? Because all these beings for generations of constantly received my instruction and worshiped and honored the former buddhas, cultivating roots of goodness..."
This looks like a conventional exchange of niceties rather than a doctrinal discussion.
I'm not in a position to evaluate the translation of this passage. Does the English correspond to Kumarajiva's Chinese? to the Sanskrit?
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
I watched a youtube movie about a yogi... not sure where. Maybe Ladakh? Anyway, he remarked, hundreds of thousands of prostrations are easy compared to maintaining single pointed focus. Medals of Honor were given out posthumously on a regular basis in WWI and WWII to men who jumped on grenades to save their fellows. I seriously doubt there were many practicing Buddhists, let alone bodhisattvas among those recipients. I think you have it backwards about the difficulty of maintaining concentration.Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:35 pmMy bad —— a bodhisattva mahāsattva is any bodhisattva on the stages -- but still my point stands, if one is able to offer one's eyes or limbs sentient beings, how could one possibly be distracted on the path since one has now realized emptiness?
The only conclusion I can draw is that these sentiments are reflective of the bias of the person who wrote the text down.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter
There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter
There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
Yes, it's a tricky needle to thread.
Speaking for myself only, I don't have the capacity to judge the intentions or the minds of others based on their posts to a forum. Maybe others do?
Last edited by DGA on Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
If you have realized emptiness, you have no problem maintaining concentration, the former requires the latter.Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:40 pmI watched a youtube movie about a yogi... not sure where. Maybe Ladakh? Anyway, he remarked, hundreds of thousands of prostrations are easy compared to maintaining single pointed focus. Medals of Honor were given out posthumously on a regular basis in WWI and WWII to men who jumped on grenades to save their fellows. I seriously doubt there were many practicing Buddhists, let alone bodhisattvas among those recipients. I think you have it backwards about the difficulty of maintaining concentration.Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:35 pmMy bad —— a bodhisattva mahāsattva is any bodhisattva on the stages -- but still my point stands, if one is able to offer one's eyes or limbs sentient beings, how could one possibly be distracted on the path since one has now realized emptiness?
The only conclusion I can draw is that these sentiments are reflective of the bias of the person who wrote the text down.
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
Illustrating this point, I just recalled the story of Sariputra who was on the verge of Buddhahood in the past such that when a brahmin asked him for his eye, he plucked it out and gave it to him. When the brahmin tossed the eye away in disgust, Sariputra lost his concentration, got angry, and wiped out the stores of good karma. Concentration is hard - that's why even though we've given our lives for family, friends and rulers more times than we can count, we're still here.Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:40 pmI watched a youtube movie about a yogi... not sure where. Maybe Ladakh? Anyway, he remarked, hundreds of thousands of prostrations are easy compared to maintaining single pointed focus. Medals of Honor were given out posthumously on a regular basis in WWI and WWII to men who jumped on grenades to save their fellows. I seriously doubt there were many practicing Buddhists, let alone bodhisattvas among those recipients. I think you have it backwards about the difficulty of maintaining concentration.Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:35 pmMy bad —— a bodhisattva mahāsattva is any bodhisattva on the stages -- but still my point stands, if one is able to offer one's eyes or limbs sentient beings, how could one possibly be distracted on the path since one has now realized emptiness?
The only conclusion I can draw is that these sentiments are reflective of the bias of the person who wrote the text down.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter
There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter
There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
I didn't want to brag....
Practice, Practice, Practice
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests