I've been so wrong/pure lands
- Caoimhghín
- Posts: 3419
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
Some Buddhisms, not naming any in particular, not even the Buddhism of this subforum necessarily, seem to insist that ordinary beings are already completely enlightenment Buddhas & that there is no progress to be made, no afflictions to be lost, the radical thing is when this is believed of both the ultimate & conventional perspectives. It makes for a very triumphalist Buddhadharma, in which everyone is on a nonretrograding coaster for awakening, and there is no need to practice anything ever, because the results of the practice are already in fruition.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
This kind of "Buddhism" is as far removed from Buddhadharma as Advaita Vedanta.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:57 pm Some Buddhisms, not naming any in particular, not even the Buddhism of this subforum necessarily, seem to insist that ordinary beings are already completely enlightenment Buddhas & that there is no progress to be made, no afflictions to be lost, the radical thing is when this is believed of both the ultimate & conventional perspectives. It makes for a very triumphalist Buddhadharma, in which everyone is on a nonretrograding coaster for awakening, and there is no need to practice anything ever, because the results of the practice are already in fruition.
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
To paraphrase 50 Cent, "I ain't gonna spell it out for you [fellas] all the time. Are you illiterate, [brother]? You can't read between the lines?"Malcolm wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:42 pm The afflictions that cause you, a buddha, to take rebirth in samsara. You can waffle all you like, but the fact of the matter is that if you are not practicing Dharma to alleviate the suffering caused by afflictions for yourself and others, you have not understood the point of Buddhadharma at all, and are wasting your timel. I suspect you are practicing Dharma to alleviate the suffering caused by afflictions for yourself and others, so your protest is merely rhetorical posturing.
And to quote myself:
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
- Bois de Santal
- Posts: 80
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Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
Some buddhisms, yes, but does anyone take them seriously today, or even hundreds of years ago ?Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:57 pm Some Buddhisms, not naming any in particular, not even the Buddhism of this subforum necessarily, seem to insist that ordinary beings are already completely enlightenment Buddhas & that there is no progress to be made, no afflictions to be lost, the radical thing is when this is believed of both the ultimate & conventional perspectives. It makes for a very triumphalist Buddhadharma, in which everyone is on a nonretrograding coaster for awakening, and there is no need to practice anything ever, because the results of the practice are already in fruition.
I remember reading a passage that Stone quotes in her book on Hongaku Shiso, from Dogen which basically could be summarized as 'without practice and study there can be no buddhism'.* So we have two major figures of the Kamakura period who did not buy into this argument that we are all buddhas anyway, so there is no need to bother.
*Students of the gosho will immediately recognise that citation.
So even though there is no path in most/many of the Japanese buddhist schools, because enlightenment is not linear, there must be effort (and the right effort at that). It doesn't just happen.
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
Distinguishing afflictions in that way is a wrong view for us. Bodhi expresses as afflictions - and it follows afflictions express as bodhi. It depends on the view. Buddha sees the complete adornment of the Saha world. We see it as impure. Devadatta sees it engulfed in flames and torture. Bodhisattva sees a field of merit to be tended like a garden.
We purify ourselves and the world by cultivating correct view which, until we attain awakening we take on faith. This correct view enables us to correctly see ourselves as the media through which the Buddha's pure and far reaching voice reverberates in the world - when we read the sutra with our bodies we become the expression of the Buddha's perfect teaching. Reading the sutra with the body means to cause people to hear the Buddha's voice - perfect practice for oneself and others. Each in turn who reverberates with the Buddha's voice amplifies and causes the purity of the world to be manifest.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
Oh yawn. Theory is great until you stub your toe. These kinds of sentiments roll nicely off the tongue and make one feel good, until the road rage sets in...Queequeg wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:52 pmDistinguishing afflictions in that way is a wrong view for us. Bodhi expresses as afflictions - and it follows afflictions express as bodhi. It depends on the view.
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
If thats the theory that motivates one's practice, then the training is there when the toe is stubbed and the jerk cuts in front. Its easy to only talk the talk in any practice.
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
LOL. I don't even really know how to respond to the attitude.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:57 pmOh yawn. Theory is great until you stub your toe. These kinds of sentiments roll nicely off the tongue and make one feel good, until the road rage sets in...
This actually is our practice. We're taught to uphold this even at the cost of our lives. This has been practiced and demonstrated over the centuries by many. It is the ideal we strive for, however imperfectly. That's also the point - this is the place of practice where the goal is achieved.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
yah I was surprised to see Malcolm say that too since he is about the most prolific theory proponent on DW.
Queequeg wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:20 pmLOL. I don't even really know how to respond to the attitude.
This actually is our practice. We're taught to uphold this even at the cost of our lives. This has been practiced and demonstrated over the centuries by many. It is the ideal we strive for, however imperfectly. That's also the point - this is the place of practice where the goal is achieved.
Practice, Practice, Practice
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
Malcolm knows well that view guides practice. I'm not sure why the negativity.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
Everyone is prone, next time it might be you.
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
It is very easy to delude oneself with this kind of view. It is easy to kid oneself.
Of course, if one is perfectly honest with oneself, one will recognize when desire is desire, ignorance is ignorance, and hatred is hatred, and not an expression of anything other than a cause of karma which in turn results only in suffering.
Now if one knows and recognizes desire as desire when desire arises, and so on, then maybe one can say that at that moment bodhi begins to dawn every so slightly if that desire etc., does not lead to action which in turn leads inevitably to suffering. But if one excuses desire, etc., as bodhi and merely continues to inflame the three poisons, soon one will be joining all the buddhas in hell who don't know they are buddhas. Why, because they, like oneself, did not recognize the three poisons as the three poisons.
The problem with forums like these is that it is easy to have a view in one's mouth.
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
So, it seems to make more sense that instead of jumping to negative assumptions about others, we ought to give our fellows the benefit of the doubt.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:40 pmIt is very easy to delude oneself with this kind of view. It is easy to kid oneself.
Of course, if one is perfectly honest with oneself, one will recognize when desire is desire, ignorance is ignorance, and hatred is hatred, and not an expression of anything other than a cause of karma which in turn results only in suffering.
Now if one knows and recognizes desire as desire when desire arises, and so on, then maybe one can say that at that moment bodhi begins to dawn every so slightly if that desire etc., does not lead to action which in turn leads inevitably to suffering. But if one excuses desire, etc., as bodhi and merely continues to inflame the three poisons, soon one will be joining all the buddhas in hell who don't know they are buddhas. Why, because they, like oneself, did not recognize the three poisons as the three poisons.
The problem with forums like these is that it is easy to have a view in one's mouth.
I've had my bouts of sectarianism and strife that had their genesis in my own assumptions and projections about others. I recognize this as a shortcoming and try not to do that.
You might take your own medicine. Talk about lip service.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
I think the Buddha said it the best, "Mañjuśrī, seeing afflictions is bodhi."
My observation of sentient beings is that they are afflicted. Plain and simple. There are no sentient beings free from affliction by definition. Why? Because they do not see afflictions.
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
Probably not really related to the topic but years ago upon hearing about road rage I thought to myself how crazy Americans are, like road rage WTF? Then one evening after working for 12 hours straight, being tired and really agitated due to it, I found myself driving home behind someone who drove 30 in 50 km/h zone and 45 in a 70 km/h zone. After numerous curses and daydreams about simply ramming the guy with my car it occured to me "ah so this is how road rage happens".....Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:57 pmOh yawn. Theory is great until you stub your toe. These kinds of sentiments roll nicely off the tongue and make one feel good, until the road rage sets in...
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
- Shabkar
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
Many do see afflictions (the gross ones). But they do not see the gross afflictions as harmful. Even the gross afflictions are not seen for what they actually are. For example, some people see afflicted sexual desire (beyond just expieriencing it) as actually negative but are still unable to deal with it.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:38 pmI think the Buddha said it the best, "Mañjuśrī, seeing afflictions is bodhi."
My observation of sentient beings is that they are afflicted. Plain and simple. There are no sentient beings free from affliction by definition. Why? Because they do not see afflictions.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
- Caoimhghín
- Posts: 3419
- Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
- Location: Whitby, Ontario
Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands
They/I are/am certainly most unable and/or unready. My genitals, and associated mental objects that accompany them, have gotten me in more trouble, orientation aside, than any other "part" of my body. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)