I've been so wrong/pure lands

User avatar
Fa Dao
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Fa Dao » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:40 am

Buddhadharma is not a "one-size-fits-all" that is found in many other religious traditions. There are many Paths within Buddhadharma leading ultimately to the same place due to the fact that there are so many different types of people with different karmic makeups. The key is to find which one is the one for you, that suits you....study it, practice it, wash/rinse/repeat.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1910
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:10 am

Fa Dao wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:40 am
Buddhadharma is not a "one-size-fits-all" that is found in many other religious traditions. There are many Paths within Buddhadharma leading ultimately to the same place due to the fact that there are so many different types of people with different karmic makeups. The key is to find which one is the one for you, that suits you....study it, practice it, wash/rinse/repeat.
well i'm concerned that all is lost and like Dzogchen, pure land, Nichiren Shonin's teachings they all just a promise of a pure land happening after death.
so what path in Buddhadharma is not about after death go to pure land as a goal...
i used to believe , and still hope...it's all about here and now...exalting your position in samsara to help out yourself and others..

the whole pure land thing is a far second...but it's apparently an upfront first ..

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 5757
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by kirtu » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:21 am

Minobu wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:49 pm
I always thought the Buddhist gods, the Buddha , the Bohdisatvas, worked with me during this life to guide and teach me somehow.

so that my present life is enhanced as well..as my next life i will be far more evolved.
They do. But it's subtle.
Minobu wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:49 pm
what ever happened to practicing to attain enlightenment and live in society that knows you and sees your enlightenment and wonders whether they should also be trying this out...
or enlightenment proves to you that you did the right thing...
or hey i practiced to become enlightened and now i am...
No one is holding you back. Only you are holding yourself back.

If you are mostly a virtuous and kind person that is a kind of enlightenment in world society totally focused on conquest, ego and the eight worldly attitudes.

If your mind is stablized a little bit then that is a kind of enlightenment. If you are difficult to provoke to anger then that is a kind of enlightenment.

We are refined through practice. Only you can say approximately how far along you are. It takes serious contemplation to see what needs to be refined next.

Of course I'm not speaking from an exclusively Nichiren position. But don't you chant everyday for the enlightenment of the Three Worlds?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 4627
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:35 am

The 20 year reference was to the year 2000. Nothing to do with enlightenment in 20 years. There was some vague idea that the 21st c will be better.

Nichiren taught practice in this life. The land of tranquil light aka eternal grdhakuta aka the ceremony in the air is the timeless assembly where the buddha in his perfect eternal three bodies teaches the sublime Dharma always. Those who uphold the lotus sutra will be reborn there, as they've been reborn there before. It is the place where we receive the teaching; it is this land.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

User avatar
Fa Dao
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Fa Dao » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:32 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:10 am
Fa Dao wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:40 am
Buddhadharma is not a "one-size-fits-all" that is found in many other religious traditions. There are many Paths within Buddhadharma leading ultimately to the same place due to the fact that there are so many different types of people with different karmic makeups. The key is to find which one is the one for you, that suits you....study it, practice it, wash/rinse/repeat.
well i'm concerned that all is lost and like Dzogchen, pure land, Nichiren Shonin's teachings they all just a promise of a pure land happening after death.
so what path in Buddhadharma is not about after death go to pure land as a goal...
i used to believe , and still hope...it's all about here and now...exalting your position in samsara to help out yourself and others..

the whole pure land thing is a far second...but it's apparently an upfront first ..
I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment...especially when it comes to Dzogchen. Although there is an aspect that has to do with the bardo after this life it is but a small part. Dzogchen is exactly about resting in the primordial state right here, right now...also doing it in the bardo is just a continuation of that...not the main focus.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1312
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:04 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:49 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:08 pm
My remembering was less-than-exact, but there it is.
I don't get why you went this route in this thread ???...or what revalence it has to my reworking of basically...

Buddhism is all about the afterlife and not here and now. !!!!????

I always thought the Buddhist gods, the Buddha , the Bohdisatvas, worked with me during this life to guide and teach me somehow.

so that my present life is enhanced as well..as my next life i will be far more evolved.
I just added it for proper context. My remembering of it was not super accurate, but I cannot edit posts here at DharmaWheel, so I figured the best thing would be to add the proper context (what I should have done originally).
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1910
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:53 pm

kirtu wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:21 am
Minobu wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:49 pm
I always thought the Buddhist gods, the Buddha , the Bohdisatvas, worked with me during this life to guide and teach me somehow.

so that my present life is enhanced as well..as my next life i will be far more evolved.
They do. But it's subtle.
Minobu wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:49 pm
what ever happened to practicing to attain enlightenment and live in society that knows you and sees your enlightenment and wonders whether they should also be trying this out...
or enlightenment proves to you that you did the right thing...
or hey i practiced to become enlightened and now i am...
No one is holding you back. Only you are holding yourself back.

If you are mostly a virtuous and kind person that is a kind of enlightenment in world society totally focused on conquest, ego and the eight worldly attitudes.

If your mind is stablized a little bit then that is a kind of enlightenment. If you are difficult to provoke to anger then that is a kind of enlightenment.

We are refined through practice. Only you can say approximately how far along you are. It takes serious contemplation to see what needs to be refined next.

Of course I'm not speaking from an exclusively Nichiren position. But don't you chant everyday for the enlightenment of the Three Worlds?

Kirt
This is like one of those lucid posts of compassion aimed at the purpose of practicing .

thank you very much for this..

I forget at times of what i do and aim for...sort of like getting used to something , it becomes natural and all of a sudden you think there is more to it all.

which brings me to what all Nichiren Shoshu priests would say at meetings and at Gojukai ceremonies. "You too can eventually attain Buddhahood".

I always thought it was like going to be a under the Bodhi Tree thing for us , in this life. Not after death in an afterlife situation but here and now...in Samsara...not a goal of it will happen anyway when you die...

Look it is important that i am for the first time seeing even Nichiren Shonin preaching this pure land thing after death. I'm hard wired another way and it's tuff giving up...maybe i do not want to give it up.
No one is holding you back. Only you are holding yourself back.
But what practices are aiming at this and not alluding to , "well no worries if you tried and failed at least you get to go pure land after death".

I'm swimming man...swimming!

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1910
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:05 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:32 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:10 am
Fa Dao wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:40 am
Buddhadharma is not a "one-size-fits-all" that is found in many other religious traditions. There are many Paths within Buddhadharma leading ultimately to the same place due to the fact that there are so many different types of people with different karmic makeups. The key is to find which one is the one for you, that suits you....study it, practice it, wash/rinse/repeat.
well i'm concerned that all is lost and like Dzogchen, pure land, Nichiren Shonin's teachings they all just a promise of a pure land happening after death.
so what path in Buddhadharma is not about after death go to pure land as a goal...
i used to believe , and still hope...it's all about here and now...exalting your position in samsara to help out yourself and others..

the whole pure land thing is a far second...but it's apparently an upfront first ..
I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment...especially when it comes to Dzogchen. Although there is an aspect that has to do with the bardo after this life it is but a small part. Dzogchen is exactly about resting in the primordial state right here, right now...also doing it in the bardo is just a continuation of that...not the main focus.
well i realize that this is an initiation only practice, so there is a limit to what you can say.

Also i never received initiation just read a lot of Malcolm and other online stuff. so what do i know eh !
Dzogchen is exactly about resting in the primordial state right here, right now...also doing it in the bardo is just a continuation of that...not the main focus.
I'm looking for a practice , and thought i was doing one, that directly leads one to Full Blown Buddhahood in this very life.

Do you feel enlightened now that you are resting in the primordial state right here?
can you describe what it is like?
Does it give you insight into things you can talk about?
Things that are of enlightened matters?

Do people attain Buddhahood in this life from resting in the primordial state right here ?

this is my quest all my life...i thought i was doing it with Nichiren's practice.

I've experienced many sultry happenings with the practice...Weird business things, father getting cured of the incurable rarest cancer ever and having CBC interview him about it...some really mundane stuff... which i thought was proof Buddhahood could be around the corner.

thanks for your input..for real...it all helps at this juncture.

i do not mean to come off cynical ....so please do not read that into my posts or the possibility of being read as sarcasm...that is just really really not my intent...i can see it being read into though.. :thinking:

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1910
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:07 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:04 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:49 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:08 pm
My remembering was less-than-exact, but there it is.
I don't get why you went this route in this thread ???...or what revalence it has to my reworking of basically...

Buddhism is all about the afterlife and not here and now. !!!!????

I always thought the Buddhist gods, the Buddha , the Bohdisatvas, worked with me during this life to guide and teach me somehow.

so that my present life is enhanced as well..as my next life i will be far more evolved.
I just added it for proper context. My remembering of it was not super accurate, but I cannot edit posts here at DharmaWheel, so I figured the best thing would be to add the proper context (what I should have done originally).

still confused...anyway...to edit just click on the ! button at the top right corner of your post that all see.
there is a time limit...

User avatar
Fa Dao
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Fa Dao » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:56 am

If youre interested in Dzogchen but dont know a lot about it try reading the Crystal and the Way of Light. If after reading that you feel that its right for you, watch one of his webcasts and get transmission....then practice, practice, practice. The next up coming transmission is:
http://melong.com/events_listing/spain- ... ry-1-2018/
which gives you enough time to get the book and read through it a few times, ask questions here of people much more knowledgeable than me, and if you feel it is right for you get the transmission. I cant really tell you much more than that. Good luck in your search...I hear your pain and frustration..
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1910
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:58 am

Fa Dao wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:56 am
If youre interested in Dzogchen but dont know a lot about it try reading the Crystal and the Way of Light. If after reading that you feel that its right for you, watch one of his webcasts and get transmission....then practice, practice, practice. The next up coming transmission is:
http://melong.com/events_listing/spain- ... ry-1-2018/
which gives you enough time to get the book and read through it a few times, ask questions here of people much more knowledgeable than me, and if you feel it is right for you get the transmission. I cant really tell you much more than that. Good luck in your search...I hear your pain and frustration..
thank you.

It's not about pain or frustration for me...It's the journey ...I've been let down a few times...immersed myself in various paradigms , only to find out it's not what they claimed to be or what it is all about.

I have total Trust in Buddha , and realize who and what i am ...my capabilities and flaws..

I have not stopped my practice...just realize maybe i need to do other things for other aspects of my life to be fulfilled.

it's like this...i'm not the sort of guy who wants to win the lottery...I'm the type of guy that wants to constantly win them at will.

it's all just samsaric ...the money and all that freedom is not as appealing as the ability to win at will.

To see and understand the workings of Samsara and to be able to do what one wishes..
like being able to cure anyone anytime...I also realize fully there are limitations...understand the limitations...maybe be able to bend them a little ...

I thought buddhism was about this...becoming a Master of Samsara for oneself and others...

I saw my father go from living on blood transfusions and Plasmapheresis ...total bone marrow dead...no bone marrow transplant available...from Waldenstrom's macroglobulin anemia....to freaking out the doctors ...finding two areas where after more than two years , almost three, come alive ...all his bone marrow was dead...it's an impossibility....

so it left me with the concept that all in Samsara can be done at will...

i find it hard to rely on something happening after i die.
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:58 pm


So we never really ever achieve buddhahood in the sahālokadhātu.
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:40 pm


There is no attainment of buddhahood in impure dimensions. This is the purpose of path of transformation.

N
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:09 pm

It is rare anyone achieves Buddhahood in this lifetime. It is very common however for Vajrayāna practitioners to attain buddhahood at the point of death, or even in the bardo. It is even more common for Dzogchen practitioners to achieve buddhahood at the time of the death or in the bardo, and in the case of Dzogchen practitioners, provided they understand the teachings and practice in a precise way, it is certain they will never return to samsara again.

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1312
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:38 am

Minobu wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:58 am
i find it hard to rely on something happening after i die.
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:58 pm


So we never really ever achieve buddhahood in the sahālokadhātu.
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:40 pm


There is no attainment of buddhahood in impure dimensions. This is the purpose of path of transformation.

N
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:09 pm

It is rare anyone achieves Buddhahood in this lifetime. It is very common however for Vajrayāna practitioners to attain buddhahood at the point of death, or even in the bardo. It is even more common for Dzogchen practitioners to achieve buddhahood at the time of the death or in the bardo, and in the case of Dzogchen practitioners, provided they understand the teachings and practice in a precise way, it is certain they will never return to samsara again.
This all is strictly the beliefs of Malcolm's particular tradition and where he comes from. "So we never really ever achieve buddhahood in the sahālokadhātu." is not an acceptable thing to say outside of Tibet necessarily. If this kind of Buddhism gets you down, maybe there is a reason you weren't practicing it, right?
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1910
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:00 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:38 am


This all is strictly the beliefs of Malcolm's particular tradition and where he comes from. "So we never really ever achieve buddhahood in the sahālokadhātu." is not an acceptable thing to say outside of Tibet necessarily. If this kind of Buddhism gets you down, maybe there is a reason you weren't practicing it, right?
Thank you kindly, with a warmth only brought on by hope.

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 4627
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:40 pm

On seeking the Pure Land...
Although I am always here without extinction,
Through the power of skillful means
I manifest extinction and nonextinction.
If there are any sentient beings in other worlds
Who respect and believe in me,
I will also teach them the highest Dharma.
Not knowing this, you only think
That I have entered parinirvāṇa.
I see all sentient beings
Submerged in the ocean of suffering.
That is why, by not manifesting my form,
I cause them to yearn for me.
Then, after awakening this longing,
I appear and expound the Dharma;
Such are my transcendent powers.
For innumerable kalpas
I have constantly resided
On Mount Gṛdhrakūṭa and elsewhere.
When sentient beings see themselves
Amidst a conflagration
At the end of a kalpa,
It is in fact my tranquil land,
Always full of devas and humans.
All the gardens and palaces
Are adorned with various gems.
The jeweled trees abound with flowers and fruits,
And the sentient beings are joyful among them.
The devas beat heavenly drums
Making constant and varied music.
They rain down māndārava flowers
Upon the Buddha and the great assembly.
Although my Pure Land never decays,
The sentient beings see it as ravaged by fire
And torn with anxiety and distress;
They believe it is filled with these things.
Because of their misdeeds
These erring sentient beings do not hear
The name of the Three Treasures
For incalculable kalpas.
But all who cultivate merit,
And are receptive and honest,
Will see me residing here,
Expounding the Dharma.
Lotus Sutra, Ch. 16
“The transcendent powers of the buddhas are as immeasurable, limitless, and inconceivable as this. Yet if I were to use these transcendent powers to teach the benefits of this sutra so that it would be entrusted to you for immeasurable, limitless, hundreds of thousands of myriads of koṭis of incalculable kalpas, I would not be able to reach the end of these qualities. To sum up, in this sutra I have clearly revealed and taught all the teachings of the Tathāgata, all the transcendent powers of the Tathāgata, all the treasure houses of the hidden essence of the Tathāgata, and all the profound aspects of the Tathāgata. For this reason, after the pari nirvāṇa of the Tathāgata, you should wholeheartedly preserve, recite, explain, and copy it, and practice according to the teaching. Those who accept, recite, explain, and copy it, and practice according to the teaching, in whichever land they may be, in a place where the sutra abides—either in a garden, a forest, under a tree, in a monk’s chamber, in a layman’s house, in a palace, on a mountain, in a valley, or in the wilderness—in all of these places they should erect and pay homage to a stupa. Why is this? Because you should know that these places are the terraces of enlightenment (bodhimanda) where all the buddhas have attained highest, complete enlightenment, where all the buddhas have turned the wheel of the Dharma, and where all the buddhas entered parinirvāṇa.
Lotus Sutra Ch. 21

In Chapter 24 of the Lotus Sutra, Bodhisattva Wonderful Sound from the land Adorned with Pure Light of the Buddha Pure Flower Constellation King Wisdom saw the light emitted by Shakyamuni in the Saha world and wished to pay homage. Pure Flower Constellation King Wisdom granted him permission, but advised him:
“You must not despise that world nor think it inferior. O son of a virtuous family! The land of that sahā world is uneven and irregular and is filled with mud, stones, mountains, and filth. The Buddha is short of body, as are the bodhisattvas. By contrast, your body is forty-two thousand yojanas tall, and my body is six million eight hundred thousand yojanas tall. Your body is perfect in its bearing and illuminated most beautifully with hundreds of millions of merits. Yet, when you go there you must not despise that country nor think the Buddha, bodhisattvas, or the world itself inferior.”
In Chapter 10 of the Vimalakirti Sutra, Vimalakirti emanated a remarkable Bodhisattva and sent him to a land called Host of Fragrances of the Buddha Accumulation of Fragrances to request leftovers from their meal to feed the assembly who had come to inquire about Vimalakirti's health. The world Host of Fragrances is composed of fragrances, and the Buddha teaches in fragrances. It is so refined that they have never even heard the words sravaka or pratyekabuddha. On seeing this great bodhisattva, the bodhisattvas of that land wanted to visit the Saha world. Accumulation of Fragrances advised:
“However, withdraw the fragrance of your bodies, so as not to cause the sentient beings there to generate thoughts of deluded attachment. Also, you should forsake your original forms, so as not to cause those seeking to become bodhisattvas in that country to be ashamed of themselves. In addition, you must not harbor feelings of belittlement or thoughts of the hindrances [present in that world]. Why? The countries of the ten directions are all like space (i.e., devoid of fixed reality). Furthermore, [you should realize] that the buddhas do not completely manifest their pure lands solely in order to convert those who delight in inferior dharmas.
Not to belabor this, but in Chapter 1 of the Vimalakirti Sutra, the Buddha directly addresses the question of the Purity of this Saha World -
At that time Śāriputra was influenced by the Buddha’s numinous charisma to have this thought: “If the bodhisattva’s buddha land is pure according to the purity of the bodhisattva’s mind, then when our World-honored One was a bodhisattva his mind must have been pure. Nevertheless, this buddha land is so impure!”

The Buddha knew what he was thinking and asked him, “What do you think? Although the blind do not see them, can the sun and moon be anything
but pure?”

[Śāriputra] answered, “No, World-honored One! This is the fault of the blind, not that of the sun and moon.”

[The Buddha said], “Śāriputra, it is through the transgressions of sentient beings that they do not see the purity of the Tathāgata’s (i.e., my) buddha land. This is not the Tathāgata’s fault! Śāri putra, this land of mine is pure, but you do not see it.”

At that time Conch Crest Brahmā King said to Śāriputra, “Do not think thus, saying that this buddha land is not pure. Why? I have witnessed the purity of Śākyamuni’s buddha land. It is like the heavenly palace of Īśvara.”

Śāriputra said, “As I observe this land, it is hills and hollows, brambles and gravel, and rocks and mountains—all filled with defilements.”

Conch Crest Brahmā King said, “Sir, your mind has (i.e., perceives) high and low because you are not relying on buddha wisdom. Hence you perceive this land as impure. Śāriputra, the bodhisattva is universally same [in attitude] regarding all sentient beings. The purity of his profound mind relies on buddha wisdom and therefore is able to perceive the purity of this buddha land.”

At this the Buddha pointed to the earth with his toe, and instantly the trimegachiliocosm was as if ornamented with a hundred thousand jewels. It was like the Jewel Ornamentation land, with all its immeasurable merits of Jewel Ornament Buddha.

The entire great assembly exclaimed at this unprecedented event, and they all saw themselves sitting on many-jeweled lotus flowers.

The Buddha told Śāriputra, “You should now observe the purity of this buddha land.”

Śāriputra said, “So it is, World-honored One. Originally I did not see it; originally I did not hear it. Now the purity of the Buddha’s country is entirely
apparent.”

The Buddha said to Śāriputra, “My buddha country is always pure, like this. It is only so as to save inferior persons here that I manifest it as a defiled and impure land. It is like the many-jeweled eating utensils used in common by the gods, the food in which is of different colors depending on their merits. Just so, Śāriputra, if a person’s mind is pure he sees the merits and ornaments of this land.”
Vimalakirti Sutra, Ch. 1

We see an inferior world here because our own minds are tarnished. Enlightenment is as achievable here as anywhere, and as the Buddha assures, is achieved ubiquitously.

To quote one of the greatest movies of all time, Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome:

“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1910
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:05 pm

So Q , could you put into context why Nichiren shonin talks of "See you in the pure land of Eagle Peak, and see you in the Land of Tranquil Light.

those are Buddha fields or Buddha pure lands created for certain purpose.
and then we have this saha world..samsaric ..mundane...

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 4627
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:02 pm

It depends on the view from which the statements are made.

Some of us delight in "inferior teachings". Like the lost son, we think we only deserve to clean outhouses. We see the world a filthy and impure. We aspire to escape it, whether to the heavens or some Pure Land where the hardships of this world are unheard of.

Look at the recipients of the letters promising birth in the Pure Land of Grdhakuta. They are people who lost loved ones. People of limited learning and aspiration. People who have scarcely heard the Buddha's name, but who nonetheless have aroused and cultivate a glimmer of faith.

For those who are heavily deluded, this world appears impure and they arouse aversion for it, longing for escape - whether its to the heavens within the three fold world, or various Buddha's Pure Lands where the pursuit of enlightenment is easy. For them, Nichiren describes the Pure Land of Grdhakuta - the timeless ceremony in the air.

In his major treatises, Nichiren emphasized the Buddhahood in our mind. Even if we do not see it, we are urged to enter the assurance of the Buddha and proceed on faith.

As I quoted above:
Although I am always here without extinction,
Through the power of skillful means
I manifest extinction and nonextinction.
If there are any sentient beings in other worlds
Who respect and believe in me,
I will also teach them the highest Dharma.
Not knowing this, you only think
That I have entered parinirvāṇa.
I see all sentient beings
Submerged in the ocean of suffering.
That is why, by not manifesting my form,
I cause them to yearn for me.
Then, after awakening this longing,
I appear and expound the Dharma;
Such are my transcendent powers.
For innumerable kalpas
I have constantly resided
On Mount Gṛdhrakūṭa and elsewhere.

When sentient beings see themselves
Amidst a conflagration
At the end of a kalpa,
It is in fact my tranquil land,
Always full of devas and humans.
All the gardens and palaces
Are adorned with various gems.
The jeweled trees abound with flowers and fruits,
And the sentient beings are joyful among them.
The devas beat heavenly drums
Making constant and varied music.
They rain down māndārava flowers
Upon the Buddha and the great assembly.
Although my Pure Land never decays,
The sentient beings see it as ravaged by fire
And torn with anxiety and distress;
They believe it is filled with these things.
Because of their misdeeds
These erring sentient beings do not hear
The name of the Three Treasures
For incalculable kalpas.
But all who cultivate merit,
And are receptive and honest,
Will see me residing here,
Expounding the Dharma.
So, when Nichiren refers to Eagle Peak as where we will be in our next birth, he is speaking from the perspective of the limited views harbored by the beings of this world, which views are the very obstacles that prevent them from seeing this Pure Saha World. He is not lying, but he is speaking in conformity with the limited views of others. The real situation is that we're there already. See the passages I quoted above. This is a fully adorned Pure Land, but for our own confusion.

For those who enter into the Buddha's teaching, earnestly wishing to see the Buddha, the Buddha appears now, expounding the Lotus Sutra to the Assembly.

What do you think you are looking at when you look at the Gohonzon?
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1910
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:22 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:02 pm
It depends on the view from which the statements are made.

Some of us delight in "inferior teachings". Like the lost son, we think we only deserve to clean outhouses. We see the world a filthy and impure. We aspire to escape it, whether to the heavens or some Pure Land where the hardships of this world are unheard of.

Look at the recipients of the letters promising birth in the Pure Land of Grdhakuta. They are people who lost loved ones. People of limited learning and aspiration. People who have scarcely heard the Buddha's name, but who nonetheless have aroused and cultivate a glimmer of faith.

For those who are heavily deluded, this world appears impure and they arouse aversion for it, longing for escape - whether its to the heavens within the three fold world, or various Buddha's Pure Lands where the pursuit of enlightenment is easy. For them, Nichiren describes the Pure Land of Grdhakuta - the timeless ceremony in the air.

In his major treatises, Nichiren emphasized the Buddhahood in our mind. Even if we do not see it, we are urged to enter the assurance of the Buddha and proceed on faith.

As I quoted above:
Although I am always here without extinction,
Through the power of skillful means
I manifest extinction and nonextinction.
If there are any sentient beings in other worlds
Who respect and believe in me,
I will also teach them the highest Dharma.
Not knowing this, you only think
That I have entered parinirvāṇa.
I see all sentient beings
Submerged in the ocean of suffering.
That is why, by not manifesting my form,
I cause them to yearn for me.
Then, after awakening this longing,
I appear and expound the Dharma;
Such are my transcendent powers.
For innumerable kalpas
I have constantly resided
On Mount Gṛdhrakūṭa and elsewhere.

When sentient beings see themselves
Amidst a conflagration
At the end of a kalpa,
It is in fact my tranquil land,
Always full of devas and humans.
All the gardens and palaces
Are adorned with various gems.
The jeweled trees abound with flowers and fruits,
And the sentient beings are joyful among them.
The devas beat heavenly drums
Making constant and varied music.
They rain down māndārava flowers
Upon the Buddha and the great assembly.
Although my Pure Land never decays,
The sentient beings see it as ravaged by fire
And torn with anxiety and distress;
They believe it is filled with these things.
Because of their misdeeds
These erring sentient beings do not hear
The name of the Three Treasures
For incalculable kalpas.
But all who cultivate merit,
And are receptive and honest,
Will see me residing here,
Expounding the Dharma.
So, when Nichiren refers to Eagle Peak as where we will be in our next birth, he is speaking from the perspective of the limited views harbored by the beings of this world, which views are the very obstacles that prevent them from seeing this Pure Saha World. He is not lying, but he is speaking in conformity with the limited views of others. The real situation is that we're there already. See the passages I quoted above. This is a fully adorned Pure Land, but for our own confusion.

For those who enter into the Buddha's teaching, earnestly wishing to see the Buddha, the Buddha appears now, expounding the Lotus Sutra to the Assembly.

What do you think you are looking at when you look at the Gohonzon?
thanks Q...it's weird ...but my focus became more aware of the faith in the teaching since i started this thread.

i regrouped my random thoughts in my daily life ,to do more of the work at hand.

sort of like shit or get off the pot as me mum would say.

So i lessened the noise and concentrated more on the fact i am fortunate enough to be chanting with the Lotus Sutra at Eagle Peak right now ...even as I walk the park...

I'm ticked at the whole pure land thing and it being the goal...it's a masses thing...not a con as i said earlier but an expedient means things , as you just described...

so i shall continue improving me lot in life right here with all the other suffering masses , cause for sure we will be re re re doing this all over again next life....for i doubt if the pure lands are going to be filling up with this batch of earthly practioners ....

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 4627
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:20 pm

Maybe we ought to refocus the discussion. This is not about the truth or untruth of the Buddha's teachings. All of the Buddha's teachings are true.
All the teachings that Shakyamuni Buddha expounded during his lifetime—all the eight volumes and twenty-eight chapters of the Lotus Sutra, the first four flavors of teachings that preceded the sutra, and the Nirvana Sutra that came after the Lotus—make an unbroken series of teachings like one perfect sutra.
-Kanjin-no-Honzon-Sho

Nichiren never cast doubt on the vows of Amitabha and his Pure Land. He never cast doubt on any of the Pure Lands. He never cast doubt on the Buddha's Hinayana teachings, nor any of the Mahayana teachings that preceded the Lotus. Each of these teachings are the Buddha's Golden Words. What Nichiren did was emphasize the perspective of the Lotus Sutra which puts the various teaching of the Buddha into its proper perspective. Zhiyi called this "Opening the Provisional to Reveal the Real". What this means is that once the Lotus Sutra is taught, the real import of the other teachings is revealed. The Buddha teaches the blacksmith to count breaths because it echoes the function of the bellow. He teaches the butcher the vileness of the body because he knows what the body looks like under the skin. The Buddha teaches various teachings to gladden the mind and prepare the person to hear and enter into the Buddha's most sublime teaching - his own Enlightenment.

Nichiren's criticisms were all based on this. He never asserted that a particular teaching of the Buddha was false but rather asserted that they were being interpreted with the wrong perspective.

In the Nichiren tradition, the correct view is the Daimoku. Its elaboration is Ichinen Sanzen.

In the passages I quoted, we get the message that this Saha world is a completely adorned Pure Land, but due to the karmic stains of our mind, we see it as impure.

In terms of ichinen sanzen, we say, a person consumed in rage is at that moment in hell. Full of rage, one sees everything around them as reflecting that rage. The innocent action of another is interpreted as a deliberate affront. A clear blue sky is experienced as an oppressively hot sun. Another person in that same place at the same time is consumed by greed, and experiencing the realm of hungry ghosts. The person who takes a place in the queue ahead of the hungry ghost is an enemy who will take the last blueberry muffin in the coffee shop display that they covet. The blue sky means the day is moving fast and the time to accumulate and itch cravings is slipping away. Yet another person in their midst is sated, experiencing the human realm, with few desires or aversions. They look at the crowd around them and see the wonder in diversity, and feel the warmth of sun in a clear blue sky.

At any moment, each of these three could change their disposition. The person full of rage might realize that the reason for their anger was mistaken, and taking a few breaths, they are calm and content. The greedy person gets their blueberry muffin and all of a sudden is happy. Meanwhile, the content person has just had a mocha latte spilled on their computer and filled with rage at the unfair world. This is the way samsara goes from moment to moment.

The same applies to the Buddha's various teachings. Some people are weary, and see no end in sight. For them, the Buddha conjures an oasis in the midst of samsara in which they can rest.

For us, Nichiren taught the Daimoku - a reference point indicating the Sublime Teaching of the Buddha - a teaching that is kept by all Buddhas. From the Sublime Truth flow expedients, but fundamentally, by orienting ourselves to the Daimoku, regardless of how clearly or obscurely we see it, we are assured that our orientation, our view, is framed correctly. As a practice for others, we direct them to the Daimoku, so that they may also determine the real orientation.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 26182
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:30 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:38 am
This all is strictly the beliefs of Malcolm's particular tradition and where he comes from. "So we never really ever achieve buddhahood in the sahālokadhātu." is not an acceptable thing to say outside of Tibet necessarily.
This is straight from Mahāyāna Sūtra, and more than one.

Lankāvatāra Sūtra states:

[Those in] the divine palace of Akaniṣṭha
are free from all misdeeds,
always endowed with nonconceptuality,
free from the arising of mind and mental factors,
having obtained the powers and the faculty of clairvoyance,
and having obtained those samadhis,
the perfect buddhas attain buddhahood there;
the emanations attain buddhahood here.


And:

There is no buddhahood
in the desire realm or the formless realm;
you who are free from desire will attain buddhahood
in Akaniṣṭha of the form realm.


The Ghanavyuha Sūtra states:

The buddhas abiding in that place
praise Ghanavyūha.
Ghanavyūha has existed from beginningless time.
A self-originated emanation is there,
the stainless Buddha.
Dwelling beyond the three elements,
That place is without grasping to bliss,
it is free from the experience of I and mine,
it is unchanging, ultimately permanent, and stable.
Ghanavyūha is unconditioned.
The perfect buddhas awaken [there]
but without buddhahood in the supreme place, Akaniṣṭha,
the deeds of the buddha will not be performed in the desire realm.
Once they depart Ghanavyūha
ten million emanations of the Buddha
will always remain in yogic equipoise.


And:

The Ghanavyūha buddhafield exists beyond the subtle particle nature of the other buddhafields. The Ghanavyūha buddhafield is without the sun, planets, and the moon. Because it’s nature is unconditioned, it does not appear as the most subtle of subtle particles.

That this was normative for Indian Mahāyāna is shown by this passage from Abhayākaragupta’s Marmakaumudī commentary on the Aṣṭasāhasrikāprajñāpāramitā Sūtra.

After our teacher attained full buddhahood in Akaniṣṭha, the nirmanakāyas are born gradually and all at once in Tuṣita in one billion four-continent worlds contained within the Sahā universe, and after dying there [in Tuṣita], exhibit birth in the continent of Jambudvipa (India) and so on until he intended nirvana.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.


-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1312
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: I've been so wrong/pure lands

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:40 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:30 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:38 am
This all is strictly the beliefs of Malcolm's particular tradition and where he comes from. "So we never really ever achieve buddhahood in the sahālokadhātu." is not an acceptable thing to say outside of Tibet necessarily.
This is straight from Mahāyāna Sūtra, and more than one.

Lankāvatāra Sūtra states:

[Those in] the divine palace of Akaniṣṭha
are free from all misdeeds,
always endowed with nonconceptuality,
free from the arising of mind and mental factors,
having obtained the powers and the faculty of clairvoyance,
and having obtained those samadhis,
the perfect buddhas attain buddhahood there;
the emanations attain buddhahood here.


And:

There is no buddhahood
in the desire realm or the formless realm;
you who are free from desire will attain buddhahood
in Akaniṣṭha of the form realm.


The Ghanavyuha Sūtra states:

The buddhas abiding in that place
praise Ghanavyūha.
Ghanavyūha has existed from beginningless time.
A self-originated emanation is there,
the stainless Buddha.
Dwelling beyond the three elements,
That place is without grasping to bliss,
it is free from the experience of I and mine,
it is unchanging, ultimately permanent, and stable.
Ghanavyūha is unconditioned.
The perfect buddhas awaken [there]
but without buddhahood in the supreme place, Akaniṣṭha,
the deeds of the buddha will not be performed in the desire realm.
Once they depart Ghanavyūha
ten million emanations of the Buddha
will always remain in yogic equipoise.


And:

The Ghanavyūha buddhafield exists beyond the subtle particle nature of the other buddhafields. The Ghanavyūha buddhafield is without the sun, planets, and the moon. Because it’s nature is unconditioned, it does not appear as the most subtle of subtle particles.

That this was normative for Indian Mahāyāna is shown by this passage from Abhayākaragupta’s Marmakaumudī commentary on the Aṣṭasāhasrikāprajñāpāramitā Sūtra.

After our teacher attained full buddhahood in Akaniṣṭha, the nirmanakāyas are born gradually and all at once in Tuṣita in one billion four-continent worlds contained within the Sahā universe, and after dying there [in Tuṣita], exhibit birth in the continent of Jambudvipa (India) and so on until he intended nirvana.
Well, I said that this was a particularly Tibetan belief, because this strata of Indian Buddhism only survives in Tibet. Did the Chinese even know of this Ven Abhayākaragupta? For instance, sahālokadhātu is something of a "definitive bodhimaṇḍa" in most of East Asian Buddhism. I am thinking of Zen, Tendai, etc., inasmuch as I am accurately exposed to them. This seems to be a point of (minor and hardly severe) disagreement between the two traditions.

Either way, I presume you did not mean that Buddhahood in this life is impossible, which is how I think the OP took it. I presume so because I don't think anyone can write a book called "Buddhahood in this Life" and think such.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Queequeg and 20 guests