I've been so wrong/pure lands

[Malcolm]

So, it seems to make more sense that instead of jumping to negative assumptions about others, we ought to give our fellows the benefit of the doubt.

I think the Buddha said it the best, "Mañjuśrī, seeing afflictions is bodhi."

My observation of sentient beings is that they are afflicted. Plain and simple. There are no sentient beings free from affliction by definition. Why? Because they do not see afflictions.

Many do see afflictions (the gross ones). But they do not see the gross afflictions as harmful. Even the gross afflictions are not seen for what they actually are. For example, some people see afflicted sexual desire (beyond just expieriencing it) as actually negative but are still unable to deal with it.

Kirt

That means they do not see afflictions as afflictions, thus they do not see them.

[Minobu]

I think the Buddha said it the best, "Mañjuśrī, seeing afflictions is bodhi."

My observation of sentient beings is that they are afflicted. Plain and simple. There are no sentient beings free from affliction by definition. Why? Because they do not see afflictions.

Many do see afflictions (the gross ones). But they do not see the gross afflictions as harmful. Even the gross afflictions are not seen for what they actually are. For example, some people see afflicted sexual desire (beyond just expieriencing it) as actually negative but are still unable to deal with it.

Kirt

That means they do not see afflictions as afflictions, thus they do not see them.

it's why Lotus Buddhism appeared at the beginning of the degenerative age when all of the Dharmas no longer suit the capacity of the people in this era.

it's not that the dharmas are wrong...the time and the people's capacity is the problem that needed addressing.

it's like the whole excuse thing for no one being able to honestly say what this whole dzogchen thing is like to experience . all you end up with is years of people asking questions about it and the teachers giving excuses for it not really being experienced as it is claimed to be.

medicine of the Buddha is the teaching and the dharma...it has a shelf life

[illarraza]

The Lotus Sutra teaches that this IS the Eternal Pure land. The deluded like Malcolm see Samsara as a World of suffering. Like wise they think the Buddha has eradicated afflictions. The Buddha too gets hungry and eats. Likewise the Buddha has an urge to defecate and does.

[DGA]

The Lotus Sutra teaches that this IS the Eternal Pure land. The deluded like Malcolm see Samsara as a World of suffering. Like wise they think the Buddha has eradicated afflictions. The Buddha too gets hungry and eats. Likewise the Buddha has an urge to defecate and does.

Would you mind elaborating on what you mean by the Eternal Pure Land? Specifically: I'm trying to understand your perspective, but I don't see the connection between your claims on the here-and-now as the Eternal Pure Land and the need for Shakyamuni to eat and digest on one side, and your rejection of the idea that the present is also samsaric and that afflictions exist.

Nor do I recall reading anywhere that Malcolm has claimed that the Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, as you claim he has.

Nor do I recall reading in the Lotus Sutra that the present is an Eternal Pure Land.

Please, set us right.

Finally, and somewhat unrelated to this discussion, here's a post that I think will be of interest to you.

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=27062&start=60#p423181

Namo Buddhaya!

[Malcolm]

The Lotus Sutra teaches that this IS the Eternal Pure land. The deluded like Malcolm see Samsara as a World of suffering.

Are you sufficiently insane that you think that this is not happening?



If so, frankly, you are just a religious wingnut who is not worth paying attention too.

[Malcolm]

Nor do I recall reading anywhere that Malcolm has claimed that the Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, as you claim he has.

Let's set the record straight then. The Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, it is axiomatic. Only those whose understanding of the Dharma is completely perverse deny this.

[DGA]

Nor do I recall reading anywhere that Malcolm has claimed that the Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, as you claim he has.

Let's set the record straight then. The Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, it is axiomatic. Only those whose understanding of the Dharma is completely perverse deny this.

Yes, it is axiomatic that a Buddha has eradicated all the afflictions in his or her own mindstream. That's what makes Buddhas, Buddhas.

I had thought illarraza was claiming that you said Buddha Shakyamuni had eradicated all afflictions in all mindstreams [all afflictions tout court]. Hence my question.

Illarraza, would you please clarify this point also? Are there such things as "sentient beings"?

[illarraza]

Nor do I recall reading anywhere that Malcolm has claimed that the Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, as you claim he has.

Urns
Let's set the record straight then. The Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, it is axiomatic. Only those whose understanding of the Dharma is completely perverse deny this.

That's why you hate the Lotus Sutra and its votaries...Because they overturn everything you believe and were taught for the last forty years. As the Infinite Meanings Sutra teaches, "In these last forty years, I have not yet revealed the truth "(Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo). With this clear statement, he overturns his teachings of the last forty years and he overturns your pie in the sky Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions. A Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions, is an Expedient teaching, including the teachings of the first Fourteen Chapters of the Lotus Sutra. A corollary to this is that the Buddha first attained Enlightenment for the first time under the Tree when in fact He attained Enlightenment in the infinite past.

[DGA]

Nor do I recall reading anywhere that Malcolm has claimed that the Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, as you claim he has.

Urns
Let's set the record straight then. The Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, it is axiomatic. Only those whose understanding of the Dharma is completely perverse deny this.

That's why you hate the Lotus Sutra and its votaries...Because they overturn everything you believe and were taught for the last forty years. As the Infinite Meanings Sutra teaches, "In these last forty years, I have not yet revealed the truth "(Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo). With this clear statement, he overturns his teachings of the last forty years and he overturns your pie in the sky Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions. A Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions, is an Expedient teaching, including the teachings of the first Fourteen Chapters of the Lotus Sutra. A corollary to this is that the Buddha first attained Enlightenment for the first time under the Tree when in fact He attained Enlightenment in the infinite past.

Here's another rabbit hole to consider tripping down.

How does the "pie-in-the-sky Buddha" you posit differ from Eternal Buddha?

viewtopic.php?t=17143

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=26553

I observe that you haven't really addressed the question of what a Buddha with afflictions would look like, or how it is possible to manifest a Pure Land in the presence of the afflictions of ignorance, hatred, and greed/lust. Are you positing an "Eternal Buddha" who is ignorant and limited by attraction and aversion, like us idiot sentient beings? Is that your position?

It may be worthwhile to start a separate discussion on how the afflictions are treated in the writings of masters such as Zhiyi. That would be interesting.

[SunWuKong]

Urns
Let's set the record straight then. The Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, it is axiomatic. Only those whose understanding of the Dharma is completely perverse deny this.

That's why you hate the Lotus Sutra and its votaries...Because they overturn everything you believe and were taught for the last forty years. As the Infinite Meanings Sutra teaches, "In these last forty years, I have not yet revealed the truth "(Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo). With this clear statement, he overturns his teachings of the last forty years and he overturns your pie in the sky Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions. A Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions, is an Expedient teaching, including the teachings of the first Fourteen Chapters of the Lotus Sutra. A corollary to this is that the Buddha first attained Enlightenment for the first time under the Tree when in fact He attained Enlightenment in the infinite past.

Here's another rabbit hole to consider tripping down.

How does the "pie-in-the-sky Buddha" you posit differ from Eternal Buddha?

viewtopic.php?t=17143

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=26553

I observe that you haven't really addressed the question of what a Buddha with afflictions would look like, or how it is possible to manifest a Pure Land in the presence of the afflictions of ignorance, hatred, and greed/lust. Are you positing an "Eternal Buddha" who is ignorant and limited by attraction and aversion, like us idiot sentient beings? Is that your position?

It may be worthwhile to start a separate discussion on how the afflictions are treated in the writings of masters such as Zhiyi. That would be interesting.

If someone told me they had been in one moment in time and never left it, yet saw all other moments in time stream seamlessly by, i'd be interested. But saying One is from the infinite past and merely emanating the rest, that i don't find exactly fascinating, unless they can testify to it in person. People write and say things all the time. I don't have any control over that. What i find useful and not useful in understanding is what it is.

[rory]

Nor do I recall reading anywhere that Malcolm has claimed that the Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, as you claim he has.

Urns
Let's set the record straight then. The Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, it is axiomatic. Only those whose understanding of the Dharma is completely perverse deny this.

That's why you hate the Lotus Sutra and its votaries...Because they overturn everything you believe and were taught for the last forty years. As the Infinite Meanings Sutra teaches, "In these last forty years, I have not yet revealed the truth "(Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo). With this clear statement, he overturns his teachings of the last forty years and he overturns your pie in the sky Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions. A Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions, is an Expedient teaching, including the teachings of the first Fourteen Chapters of the Lotus Sutra. A corollary to this is that the Buddha first attained Enlightenment for the first time under the Tree when in fact He attained Enlightenment in the infinite past.

They don't understand that you don't need to eradicate afflictions. That this world is the Pure Land, that Buddhas have Hell realms inside the -they are mired in duality.

Medieval Tendai hongaku discourse shared with the larger Mahayana tradition a denial of any ontological distinction between samsara and nirvana, or between conventional and ultimate truth.... -medieval Japanese hongaku doctrine maintains that that the defilements, without transformation, are liberation - the position of original enlightenment.

Original Enlightenmentp. 215
gassho
Rory

[Malcolm]

Nor do I recall reading anywhere that Malcolm has claimed that the Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, as you claim he has.

Urns
Let's set the record straight then. The Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, it is axiomatic. Only those whose understanding of the Dharma is completely perverse deny this.

That's why you hate the Lotus Sutra and its votaries...Because they overturn everything you believe and were taught for the last forty years. As the Infinite Meanings Sutra teaches, "In these last forty years, I have not yet revealed the truth "(Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo). With this clear statement, he overturns his teachings of the last forty years and he overturns your pie in the sky Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions. A Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions, is an Expedient teaching, including the teachings of the first Fourteen Chapters of the Lotus Sutra. A corollary to this is that the Buddha first attained Enlightenment for the first time under the Tree when in fact He attained Enlightenment in the infinite past.

Mark, this is pure religious fanaticism. You poor man. You are so wrapped up in Buddhist dogma you cannot even have a real conversation with anyone.

[liuzg150181]

Urns
Let's set the record straight then. The Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, it is axiomatic. Only those whose understanding of the Dharma is completely perverse deny this.

That's why you hate the Lotus Sutra and its votaries...Because they overturn everything you believe and were taught for the last forty years. As the Infinite Meanings Sutra teaches, "In these last forty years, I have not yet revealed the truth "(Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo). With this clear statement, he overturns his teachings of the last forty years and he overturns your pie in the sky Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions. A Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions, is an Expedient teaching, including the teachings of the first Fourteen Chapters of the Lotus Sutra. A corollary to this is that the Buddha first attained Enlightenment for the first time under the Tree when in fact He attained Enlightenment in the infinite past.

Mark, this is pure religious fanaticism. You poor man. You are so wrapped up in Buddhist dogma you cannot even have a real conversation with anyone.

Almost thought that I am reading someone proclaiming The Second Coming of Jesus Christ in dharmawheel.

[ItsRaining]

This all is strictly the beliefs of Malcolm's particular tradition and where he comes from. "So we never really ever achieve buddhahood in the sahālokadhātu." is not an acceptable thing to say outside of Tibet necessarily.

This is straight from Mahāyāna Sūtra, and more than one.

Lankāvatāra Sūtra states:

[Those in] the divine palace of Akaniṣṭha
are free from all misdeeds,
always endowed with nonconceptuality,
free from the arising of mind and mental factors,
having obtained the powers and the faculty of clairvoyance,
and having obtained those samadhis,
the perfect buddhas attain buddhahood there;
the emanations attain buddhahood here.


And:

There is no buddhahood
in the desire realm or the formless realm;
you who are free from desire will attain buddhahood
in Akaniṣṭha of the form realm.

The Ghanavyuha Sūtra states:

The buddhas abiding in that place
praise Ghanavyūha.
Ghanavyūha has existed from beginningless time.
A self-originated emanation is there,
the stainless Buddha.
Dwelling beyond the three elements,
That place is without grasping to bliss,
it is free from the experience of I and mine,
it is unchanging, ultimately permanent, and stable.
Ghanavyūha is unconditioned.
The perfect buddhas awaken [there]
but without buddhahood in the supreme place, Akaniṣṭha,
the deeds of the buddha will not be performed in the desire realm.
Once they depart Ghanavyūha
ten million emanations of the Buddha
will always remain in yogic equipoise.

And:

The Ghanavyūha buddhafield exists beyond the subtle particle nature of the other buddhafields. The Ghanavyūha buddhafield is without the sun, planets, and the moon. Because it’s nature is unconditioned, it does not appear as the most subtle of subtle particles.

That this was normative for Indian Mahāyāna is shown by this passage from Abhayākaragupta’s Marmakaumudī commentary on the Aṣṭasāhasrikāprajñāpāramitā Sūtra.

After our teacher attained full buddhahood in Akaniṣṭha, the nirmanakāyas are born gradually and all at once in Tuṣita in one billion four-continent worlds contained within the Sahā universe, and after dying there [in Tuṣita], exhibit birth in the continent of Jambudvipa (India) and so on until he intended nirvana.

Has the Ghanavyuha sutra been translated? I can't find much about it online.

It's the Entering the Dharma Realm section of the Avatamsaka/Flower Adorement Sutra, there are translations by the City of Ten Thousand Buddhas and Thomas Cleary. The CTTB one is on their website here:

http://www.cttbusa.org/avatamsaka/avatamsaka39.asp

[Malcolm]

Has the Ghanavyuha sutra been translated? I can't find much about it online.

It's the Entering the Dharma Realm section of the Avatamsaka/Flower Adorement Sutra, there are translations by the City of Ten Thousand Buddhas and Thomas Cleary. The CTTB one is on their website here:

http://www.cttbusa.org/avatamsaka/avatamsaka39.asp

This is a common error, one I have made myself. The Ghanavyuha and the Ghandavyhua are two entirely separate sūtras. The one you are referring too is the latter.

[Grigoris]

Urns
Let's set the record straight then. The Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, it is axiomatic. Only those whose understanding of the Dharma is completely perverse deny this.

That's why you hate the Lotus Sutra and its votaries...Because they overturn everything you believe and were taught for the last forty years. As the Infinite Meanings Sutra teaches, "In these last forty years, I have not yet revealed the truth "(Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo). With this clear statement, he overturns his teachings of the last forty years and he overturns your pie in the sky Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions. A Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions, is an Expedient teaching, including the teachings of the first Fourteen Chapters of the Lotus Sutra. A corollary to this is that the Buddha first attained Enlightenment for the first time under the Tree when in fact He attained Enlightenment in the infinite past.

Mark, this is pure religious fanaticism. You poor man. You are so wrapped up in Buddhist dogma you cannot even have a real conversation with anyone.

I fail to understand why. Isn't it common Mahayana doctrine that the Buddha was already enlightened when he descended to earth? That the whole bodhi tree thing was a display? That is what the Lalitasvara Sutra teaches. I think where illarraza goes astray is to apply this teaching to the Buddha's entire Bodhisattva career. Thing is though, ultimately, even this was a display since when somebody is a Buddha, before and after are clearly seen as not applicable.

Illarraza, I am interested in your answer to the question made to you regarding if you believe sentient beings exist.

[Aryjna]

It's the Entering the Dharma Realm section of the Avatamsaka/Flower Adorement Sutra, there are translations by the City of Ten Thousand Buddhas and Thomas Cleary. The CTTB one is on their website here:

http://www.cttbusa.org/avatamsaka/avatamsaka39.asp

Thanks, yes there is a lot more information for Gandavyuha, but not for Ghanavyuha.

[DGA]

Nor do I recall reading anywhere that Malcolm has claimed that the Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, as you claim he has.

Urns
Let's set the record straight then. The Buddha has eradicated all afflictions, it is axiomatic. Only those whose understanding of the Dharma is completely perverse deny this.

That's why you hate the Lotus Sutra and its votaries...

I forgot to mention in my earlier reply to this post: You offer no evidence in support of your claim that Malcolm (or anyone else) hates the Lotus Sutra or its votaries. You assume that Malcolm and others who may disagree with some or all of your proclamations are motivated by hatred. You haven't shown this to be true, however. Can you do so?

Instead, I think this position is completely unreasonable, because Malcolm and others too are, in fact, votaries of the Lotus Sutra themselves. I make this argument here:

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=27062&start=60#p423181

I invite you to prove me wrong if you are able.

[Queequeg]

The doctrine that the Buddha has afflictions is a little misleading.

The Buddha is discernible to us only as the enlightening function. The Buddha appears only in response to afflictions. The Buddha is the perfect liberation of afflictions and nothing more can actually be said of the Buddha without acknowledging that is just more upaya in response to our need to conceptualize the Buddha. We therefore say the Buddha is the complement of afflictions and can't be distinguished from afflictions. Further, if there are afflictions then there is Buddha response. As such, Buddha is said to be a part of the affliction-liberation complex. When this complex is defined in terms of Buddha, we say the Buddha includes the afflictions. When defined in terms of deluded being, we say the deluded being includes Buddha.

[Malcolm]

That's why you hate the Lotus Sutra and its votaries...Because they overturn everything you believe and were taught for the last forty years. As the Infinite Meanings Sutra teaches, "In these last forty years, I have not yet revealed the truth "(Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo). With this clear statement, he overturns his teachings of the last forty years and he overturns your pie in the sky Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions. A Buddha who has eradicated all afflictions, is an Expedient teaching, including the teachings of the first Fourteen Chapters of the Lotus Sutra. A corollary to this is that the Buddha first attained Enlightenment for the first time under the Tree when in fact He attained Enlightenment in the infinite past.

Mark, this is pure religious fanaticism. You poor man. You are so wrapped up in Buddhist dogma you cannot even have a real conversation with anyone.

I fail to understand why.

You think a Buddha has afflictions? Because, according to what Mark wrote there, the Buddha is afflicted, just like you and I. But more to the point, he is wrapped up in a Buddhist dogma so he never talks too people, only at them.