Is the Mystic Law the same as God? If not, how so?

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Lindama
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Re: Is the Mystic Law the same as God? If not, how so?

Post by Lindama » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:59 am

don't understand a word of what you said, but it does seem to relate. What I can say, I don't know how to map one on the other, not my purpose. I always perk up when I see the word relation... no fixity there. And whatever collective Godhood is, it sounds right in spirit. Forgive I don't know who the venerables are. have I wandered into foreign territory again?

and, trinity to me goes farther than the religious references here... yet all carry an energy of relationship.... like,
mother/father/child and opposites (2) and their resolution, not to mention triangles. there are some things that just melt in your mouth.

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:13 am
Lindama wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:03 pm
the trinity vis a vis the kayas....?
I think that the Trinity does not map on exactly to the Trikāya, IMO at least. However, the relation (note: I refer only to the relation between them here) between the members of the trinity and their collective Godhood, IMO, is the exact same consumate interfusion that Ven Zhiyi & Ven Nichiren spoke of between the 3 truths.
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is the Mystic Law the same as God? If not, how so?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:06 am

Lindama wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:59 am
Forgive I don't know who the venerables are
My own eccentricity is to blame. I decided a while ago to refer to both living and dead monastics as "Venerables". Be they contemporary or passed.

Ven Nichiren is the founder of the sect(s) of Buddhism that this subforum is dedicated to. Ven Zhiyi founded the Tiantai school, of which Nichiren Buddhism is oft considered an "offshoot", not to diminish the unique revelation of Ven Nichiren.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Queequeg
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Re: Is the Mystic Law the same as God? If not, how so?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:00 pm

While I personally find comparative religion discussions interesting, the rules of this site and rules of sub-forum posting mean that we need to be careful here. The OP did ask a question that demands some foray into comparative inquiry so we have some latitude.

All that is to say, let's proceed with care and keep the discussion focused.

If there is interest in really taking this up, there is a sister site, dharmapaths.net, where comparative discussions are more than welcome.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Carlita
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Re: Is the Mystic Law the same as God? If not, how so?

Post by Carlita » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:51 am

bcol01 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:52 am
Lots of intelligent and wonderful people in this forum. I really appreciate learning from all of you. You truly help me in my own practice. :namaste:
I know this is a month off. I practiced with Shoshu and then SGI (dont ask) before I left and practice with a non nichiren lineage.

The abrahamic god is a deity, all powerful, knowing, and present. He interacts among his creation and he is defined by sacred scriptures.

The Gohonzon is a summary and depiction of all The Buddha's teachings as The Lotus Sutra. The Mystic Law is a mantra-summary of the full Lotus. In Shoshu, the scroll/Gohonzon has power. SGI, Daimoku is the key and the Gohonzon a mirrof in which that key manifest happiness.

Nichiren says in WND pg 104 Sage..."since the mind itself is buddha, and the buddha is none other than the mind, what buddha can there be outside the mind?" So, the mystic law is manifested in the mind.

God is from the heart. They are different in that god Does things. The enlightenment is not a deity nor person. The Mystic Law is only present in oneself and mind. God is external and independent of others. The mystic law is equal to the believer. God is above.

They are the same in that both are worship. How they are worshiped and the definitions differ rastically. Mystic doesnt mean spirit-ual. It just means the teachings of life and death.
[The Buddha says to his monks], when he opens his mouth to expound or when he reads the sutra, he should not delight in speaking of the faults of other people or scriptures. He should not display contempt for other teachers of the Law or speak of the good or bad, the strong or weak points of others. -Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra
:anjali:

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Minobu
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Re: Is the Mystic Law the same as God? If not, how so?

Post by Minobu » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:51 pm

Carlita wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:51 am

God is from the heart. They are different in that god Does things. The enlightenment is not a deity nor person. The Mystic Law is only present in oneself and mind. God is external and independent of others. The mystic law is equal to the believer. God is above.
.
all things are only manifested due to the Mystic Law/Myoho Renge Kyo.
God creates a thing...is outside and above that thing ...decides who gets what and when and how..the universe is god's to do what God wishes.

We are the Mystic law and we choose what we do with our lives.

ask a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim if they are God...

if you been in sgi and shoshu long enough your concept of God the creator and theirs will never be the same.

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Carlita
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Re: Is the Mystic Law the same as God? If not, how so?

Post by Carlita » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:06 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:51 pm
Carlita wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:51 am

God is from the heart. They are different in that god Does things. The enlightenment is not a deity nor person. The Mystic Law is only present in oneself and mind. God is external and independent of others. The mystic law is equal to the believer. God is above.
.
all things are only manifested due to the Mystic Law/Myoho Renge Kyo.
God creates a thing...is outside and above that thing ...decides who gets what and when and how..the universe is god's to do what God wishes.

We are the Mystic law and we choose what we do with our lives.

ask a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim if they are God...

if you been in sgi and shoshu long enough your concept of God the creator and theirs will never be the same.
Are you disagreeing with me? If yes, where?
[The Buddha says to his monks], when he opens his mouth to expound or when he reads the sutra, he should not delight in speaking of the faults of other people or scriptures. He should not display contempt for other teachers of the Law or speak of the good or bad, the strong or weak points of others. -Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra
:anjali:

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Minobu
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Re: Is the Mystic Law the same as God? If not, how so?

Post by Minobu » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:19 am

Carlita wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:06 pm
Minobu wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:51 pm
Carlita wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:51 am

God is from the heart. They are different in that god Does things. The enlightenment is not a deity nor person. The Mystic Law is only present in oneself and mind. God is external and independent of others. The mystic law is equal to the believer. God is above.
.
all things are only manifested due to the Mystic Law/Myoho Renge Kyo.
God creates a thing...is outside and above that thing ...decides who gets what and when and how..the universe is god's to do what God wishes.

We are the Mystic law and we choose what we do with our lives.

ask a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim if they are God...

if you been in sgi and shoshu long enough your concept of God the creator and theirs will never be the same.
Are you disagreeing with me? If yes, where?
I was just giving my take on things.
I am pretty sure the sgi shoshu thing would have changed your view of what "GOD" means ...

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Carlita
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Re: Is the Mystic Law the same as God? If not, how so?

Post by Carlita » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:55 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:19 am
Carlita wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:06 pm
Minobu wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:51 pm


all things are only manifested due to the Mystic Law/Myoho Renge Kyo.
God creates a thing...is outside and above that thing ...decides who gets what and when and how..the universe is god's to do what God wishes.

We are the Mystic law and we choose what we do with our lives.

ask a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim if they are God...

if you been in sgi and shoshu long enough your concept of God the creator and theirs will never be the same.
Are you disagreeing with me? If yes, where?
I was just giving my take on things.
I am pretty sure the sgi shoshu thing would have changed your view of what "GOD" means ...

I never believed in god (not the jewish, muslim, bahai, god). I was christian four years out of my adult life and the only god I knew was the physical jesus and physjcal sacraments. Without the physical person, I dont know what a god is. I practiced Buddhism Nichiren Shoshu before I went to Catholicism. Its been four some odd years since today I left and between time went to SGI.

Both Shoshu and SGI have politcal discrepencies that are embedded in their practice, shakabuku, and here how much presure to get the Gohonzon to chant for material happiness. I follow Tibetan Buddhism which seems no different in its politics. Though I dont let that disrupt my practice beyond specific lineage issues. But anyway, what works for you is always best. SGI meetings are pretty basic to welcome new commers. I see no study of the gosho directly so if thats the case maybe add a suggestion?
[The Buddha says to his monks], when he opens his mouth to expound or when he reads the sutra, he should not delight in speaking of the faults of other people or scriptures. He should not display contempt for other teachers of the Law or speak of the good or bad, the strong or weak points of others. -Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra
:anjali:

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Minobu
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Re: Is the Mystic Law the same as God? If not, how so?

Post by Minobu » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:31 pm

Carlita wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:55 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:19 am
Carlita wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:06 pm


Are you disagreeing with me? If yes, where?
I was just giving my take on things.
I am pretty sure the sgi shoshu thing would have changed your view of what "GOD" means ...

I never believed in god (not the jewish, muslim, bahai, god). I was christian four years out of my adult life and the only god I knew was the physical jesus and physjcal sacraments. Without the physical person, I dont know what a god is. I practiced Buddhism Nichiren Shoshu before I went to Catholicism. Its been four some odd years since today I left and between time went to SGI.

Both Shoshu and SGI have politcal discrepencies that are embedded in their practice, shakabuku, and here how much presure to get the Gohonzon to chant for material happiness. I follow Tibetan Buddhism which seems no different in its politics. Though I dont let that disrupt my practice beyond specific lineage issues. But anyway, what works for you is always best. SGI meetings are pretty basic to welcome new commers. I see no study of the gosho directly so if thats the case maybe add a suggestion?
well i was brought up with a fanatical atheist father...i was not allowed, due to being shunned if i did, believe in God.

and yet i shakabukkued my father when his incurable cancer was eradicated...no more living on blood transfusions and plasmapheresis .
at gakki meetings he would use bible quotes to explain buddhism...lol...no one caught on...when i ended up with a bible and read it for the first time i would come across stuff my father said when he was alive at gakki meetings...i realized he must have memorized the bible...he was a genius of sorts.

anyway...after about 30 years in gakki/then shoshu one year after split...i did a 5 year stint into tibetan...

i caved ....i had these weird experiences with what they called the Holy spirit and tried in vain to be a Christian...i could not believe in Jesus and the whole die on the cross for our sins thing...i just thought , and still do , that Jesus is enlightened and brought a teaching to tame rome, which was our world at the time...being western...

but i got to know a pantheist version of God....

then came back to Lotus buddhism and the independent movement.

i see now i needed to be sort of softened up on the God the creator thing....why...in order to be able to understand what this site and it's heavies are teaching...

it's not God the Creator or Buddha the creator but we are living in Buddha's pure land.
not totally there yet ...but i think Lord Buddha knew exactly the route i have to take in order to understand...

so like the ten year stint with the bible and my view was not wasted but needed for me...

you must realize that Buddha teaches us and is very active....this whole holy spirit thing that i experienced and relayed to christians with total applause from them(manner of speaking not literal) did happen ...but it was for me and my journey home...people would argue it is not in any sutra...they miss the point and the depth to having Buddha as a teacher...
in the gakki we were not allowed to even think about Lord Sakyamuni Buddha as you know....well maybe now i dunno...anyway...Buddha was still there for us...showing us in our daily lives and placing things in our journey...Eagle Peak dudes and dudettes are very powerful...good friends to have on your side.

as a side note.....
i never met anyone who said this...find it fascinating !
I never believed in god (not the jewish, muslim, bahai, god). I was christian four years out of my adult life and the only god I knew was the physical jesus and physjcal sacraments.
is this some sort of american evangelical thing?

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is the Mystic Law the same as God? If not, how so?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:01 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:31 pm
I never believed in god (not the jewish, muslim, bahai, god). I was christian four years out of my adult life and the only god I knew was the physical jesus and physjcal sacraments.
is this some sort of american evangelical thing?
My guess is Catholic. American evangelicals have a hernia when someone talks about "works" (i.e. actual physical practices vs endless cerebrial sitting-in-church-and-listening-to-the-lecture or "Rock Concert Christianity" a la Hillsong United). American Evangelicals call "practice"-based Christianities (like Catholicism, Greek or Russian Orthodoxy etc.) the "Works-Righteousness System" to disparage it.

The physical Jesus spoken of is likely the Eucharist.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is the Mystic Law the same as God? If not, how so?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:06 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:01 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:31 pm
I never believed in god (not the jewish, muslim, bahai, god). I was christian four years out of my adult life and the only god I knew was the physical jesus and physjcal sacraments.
is this some sort of american evangelical thing?
My guess is Catholic. American evangelicals have a hernia when someone talks about "works" (i.e. actual physical practices vs endless cerebrial sitting-in-church-and-listening-to-the-lecture or "Rock Concert Christianity" a la Hillsong United). American Evangelicals call "practice"-based Christianities (like Catholicism, Greek or Russian Orthodoxy etc.) the "Works-Righteousness System" to disparage it.

The physical Jesus spoken of is likely the Eucharist.
I feel I should maybe explain/contextualize myself further.

American Evangelicals do not have a practice-based Christianity. They preach against "practices". They have a "Just BELIEVE in Jesus and you're saved!" Christianity.

PS
Just BELIEVE in Jesus
The technical term for this is sola fide.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Carlita
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Re: Is the Mystic Law the same as God? If not, how so?

Post by Carlita » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:14 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:01 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:31 pm
I never believed in god (not the jewish, muslim, bahai, god). I was christian four years out of my adult life and the only god I knew was the physical jesus and physjcal sacraments.
is this some sort of american evangelical thing?
My guess is Catholic. American evangelicals have a hernia when someone talks about "works" (i.e. actual physical practices vs endless cerebrial sitting-in-church-and-listening-to-the-lecture or "Rock Concert Christianity" a la Hillsong United). American Evangelicals call "practice"-based Christianities (like Catholicism, Greek or Russian Orthodoxy etc.) the "Works-Righteousness System" to disparage it.

The physical Jesus spoken of is likely the Eucharist.
Yes. You're correct. What's weird is all three religions Catholicism, Nichiren Shoshu, and SGI all have political issues.

After awhile, you just say ... and focus on practice and suttas rather than who did what to him, when, why, and who cares. Once you get pass the political part and look at Right Views, Speech, and Livelihood, shouldnt budge one's faith. I know many people who fall from Catholicism because of Church politics.
[The Buddha says to his monks], when he opens his mouth to expound or when he reads the sutra, he should not delight in speaking of the faults of other people or scriptures. He should not display contempt for other teachers of the Law or speak of the good or bad, the strong or weak points of others. -Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra
:anjali:

narhwal90
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Re: Is the Mystic Law the same as God? If not, how so?

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:24 pm

Involvement or at least presence of Buddhism in politics in to some variable extent, goes all the way back to Sakyamuni himself. Or if you prefer to view it from the perspective of state Buddhism, then King Ashoka.

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Minobu
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Re: Is the Mystic Law the same as God? If not, how so?

Post by Minobu » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:57 pm

Carlita wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:14 pm
I know many people who fall from Catholicism because of Church politics.
sigh i hear ya...
a protestant priest once told me "There is no perfect church on earth"

the whole jesus thing> allowed for a lot of kindness to be created in earthlings.
it became part and parcel to our politics hence> social welfare systems in many christian countries....i say christian countries as in something that was....now we are just melting pots and hopefully Christian ethics rubs off on everyone...including Buddhists..

thats the whole Nichiren thing is it not...to live a life properly and with compassion ...you practice this Buddhism and this becomes apparent...and you don't have to practice long before it takes hold and transforms you...

become a good person in this life is our prime directive.

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