simultaneity of cause and effect

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Minobu
Posts: 1966
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Minobu » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:01 pm

DGA wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:33 pm
illarraza wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:34 pm
A .Twenty Important Principles

B. Above post: Nichiren validates the Lotus Sutra and the Lotus Sutra validates Nichien (one is able to realize the very text)

C. Seeds without peer (1000 out of 1000 people who hear Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo even once will attain Buddha-hood

D: Such wonderful doctrines as Bodhi for Sravakas; Pratyekka Buddhas; and Icchantikas; the infinite lifespan of the Buddha;and 3000 Worlds in a Moment of Existence (The Buddha simultaneously posseses Pure and Perfect Enlightenment but delusions, albeit in a latent state.

E. The Enlightenment of animals and even plants i.e.: Gohonzon/statues
Please help me understand. Are you saying that plants, animals, and some objects are Enlightened?

By Enlightened, do you mean Buddha?
i have a question?
the enlightenment of plants and rocks.....is this pointing to that the same stuff ,for all to appear in this existence /non existence world we dwell in .

the palm of Buddha Mahavairocana .... or Myoho Renge Kyo ....or in my wording....not a teaching but another question...just to be clear...i'm working on this ...

can we say stuff like....
That Tathagatagarbha in all things...

it makes sense from a Lotus buddhism and the way we live our Buddhist lives "IN SAMSARA"...
it's why when asked about what he was going to do after Kosen Rufu was achieved on this planet...President Toda replied...go to another planet that needs me and do it all over again...


if Tathgatgharba is the primordial essence or something similar to the Alchemist's view of

Prima materia but much more in line with Sunyata and the philosophy of such mixed with compassion....

then we simply are taking part in getting in touch with the Buddha Nature of all things....it's like a step above the getting in touch with mother nature thing...

again this is all just me trying to figure it out so please don;t get your shorts in a twist people...i said people not the person i am using the quote of in order to ask....

a much more careful minobu...see what modding does....olo oops i lolled wrong...

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Coëmgenu
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:39 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:01 pm
DGA wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:33 pm
illarraza wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:34 pm
A .Twenty Important Principles

B. Above post: Nichiren validates the Lotus Sutra and the Lotus Sutra validates Nichien (one is able to realize the very text)

C. Seeds without peer (1000 out of 1000 people who hear Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo even once will attain Buddha-hood

D: Such wonderful doctrines as Bodhi for Sravakas; Pratyekka Buddhas; and Icchantikas; the infinite lifespan of the Buddha;and 3000 Worlds in a Moment of Existence (The Buddha simultaneously posseses Pure and Perfect Enlightenment but delusions, albeit in a latent state.

E. The Enlightenment of animals and even plants i.e.: Gohonzon/statues
Please help me understand. Are you saying that plants, animals, and some objects are Enlightened?

By Enlightened, do you mean Buddha?
i have a question?
the enlightenment of plants and rocks.....is this pointing to that the same stuff ,for all to appear in this existence /non existence world we dwell in .

the palm of Buddha Mahavairocana .... or Myoho Renge Kyo ....or in my wording....not a teaching but another question...just to be clear...i'm working on this ...

can we say stuff like....
That Tathagatagarbha in all things...

it makes sense from a Lotus buddhism and the way we live our Buddhist lives "IN SAMSARA"...
it's why when asked about what he was going to do after Kosen Rufu was achieved on this planet...President Toda replied...go to another planet that needs me and do it all over again...


if Tathgatgharba is the primordial essence or something similar to the Alchemist's view of

Prima materia but much more in line with Sunyata and the philosophy of such mixed with compassion....

then we simply are taking part in getting in touch with the Buddha Nature of all things....it's like a step above the getting in touch with mother nature thing...

again this is all just me trying to figure it out so please don;t get your shorts in a twist people...i said people not the person i am using the quote of in order to ask....

a much more careful minobu...see what modding does....olo oops i lolled wrong...
I don't know how Ven Zhanran did it, as there are multiple ways to go about this insentient Buddha-nature thing, but I was just recently struggling with the concept as it comes out in the thought of Ven Dogen (and some AWFUL translations of his work which you can see producing more intellectual strife than they are designed to placate) here, here, and here, in that order as it is only with the last link that I tentatively can say that I "get" at least one style of explaining the concept, tentatively.

Focus on the talk of Ven Dōgen & his Shōbōgenzō, as there is also a lot of other subject matter touched on in those threads.

Hope that is of help.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

illarraza
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:24 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:02 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:53 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:47 pm
What they are not is any kind of history or record of conventional reality.
That goes too far... there are plenty of things we've thought were myth, only to find evidence that they are historical accounts - albeit often times mixed with myth. King Ashoka, for instance.
Or the city of Troy, a famous example.

That being said, I also don't think any meteorologists are going to spot any flying jewelled stupas any time soon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ7l-Fi5nJY


illarraza
Posts: 571
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:30 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:46 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:45 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:32 pm


So you believe it be utterly true, rather then literally true?
Fair distinction. I included the quote to explain what I meant.

And since you do not believe it to be literally true, Minobu should be hassling you?
There are various teaching methods employed by the Buddha in the Lotus Sutra: simile; metaphor; parable [of which there are seven]; skillful or expedient means; logic; historical precedent; narration [current events and prior birth stories]; questions and answers; and most importantly, a direct exposition of his Enlightenment. When studying the Lotus Sutra one can reflect, "here the Buddha is speaking of his experience in a previous existence and here the Buddha is answering the question of Sariputra", etc. Are there worlds where the Buddha actually experienced parthenogenesis as the physiological method of reproducing the species or is it a metaphor or is it something else? Is the Treasure Tower a metaphor only? Bodhisattvas 500 feet tall on other worlds? Flying cars? Some things are fruitless to question or contemplate and the Buddha was silent.

illarraza
Posts: 571
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:30 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:30 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:27 pm
for me the happenings in the Lotus that seem incredible are down to the Buddha's powers./
And somewhere on here i mentioned that not everyone could see what was happening and that it was something that people could take part in due to the Buddha's power.

so like some tourista walking around at the time would see a barren mountainside...whilst all this was going on...

now maybe it is like Nichiren daishonin explained.
This [Lotus] sutra deals with the original mind [of enlightenment] in the waking state. But because living beings are accustomed to thinking in the mental terms appropriate to a dream state, it borrows the language of the dream state in order to teach the waking state of the original mind. However, though the language is that employed in a dream state, the intention behind it is to give instruction in the waking state of the original mind. This is the aim of both the text of the Lotus Sutra itself and of the commentaries on it. If one does not clearly understand this, one will invariably misunderstand the wording of both the sutra and its commentaries.
but the real question is how does the Sutra come to be.

All were written well after the Parinirvana of the Buddha Sakyamuni ?

all start with thus i heard....
so who heard from who and how.

there is a difference between writing a story made up and writing something you heard.

how far down the myth and legend rabbit hole do you want to go....

is it all just along the lines of some contrived thing like placing a crown on a king's head and verifying that God willed this....you now belong to him and are ruled by him and we his priests can attest to this.

i can easily see it being the same paradigm to control people and be their high priests and bring about a new world order way back when...

i appreciate malcolm's take on it and i don;t hassle anyone except in getting them to say what they really think and believe...

Malcolm seems very politically correct in his answers ...

if i hassle it is for a more lucid blunt answer...


so lets have it then
"who heard from who and how". some sort of Dharmakaya thing?
a vision?

did the Stupa come out of the ground as some huger than huge thing with Buddhas inside it ....did certain qualified people see this in some sort of Samadhi happening.

is is all just
This [Lotus] sutra deals with the original mind [of enlightenment] in the waking state. But because living beings are accustomed to thinking in the mental terms appropriate to a dream state, it borrows the language of the dream state in order to teach the waking state of the original mind. However, though the language is that employed in a dream state, the intention behind it is to give instruction in the waking state of the original mind. This is the aim of both the text of the Lotus Sutra itself and of the commentaries on it. If one does not clearly understand this, one will invariably misunderstand the wording of both the sutra and its commentaries.
but again ..who came up with it and how...
http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2015/01/w ... sutra.html

Mark

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Malcolm
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:32 pm

illarraza wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:46 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:45 pm


Fair distinction. I included the quote to explain what I meant.

And since you do not believe it to be literally true, Minobu should be hassling you?
There are various teaching methods employed by the Buddha in the Lotus Sutra: simile; metaphor; parable [of which there are seven]; skillful or expedient means; logic; historical precedent; narration [current events and prior birth stories]; questions and answers; and most importantly, a direct exposition of his Enlightenment. When studying the Lotus Sutra one can reflect, "here the Buddha is speaking of his experience in a previous existence and here the Buddha is answering the question of Sariputra", etc. Are there worlds where the Buddha actually experienced parthenogenesis as the physiological method of reproducing the species or is it a metaphor or is it something else? Is the Treasure Tower a metaphor only? Bodhisattvas 500 feet tall on other worlds? Flying cars? Some things are fruitless to question or contemplate and the Buddha was silent.
Which raise all kinds of hermeneutical issues, not least of which is, did the Indian or Indians who wrote this text down take it literally at all? Indeed, how literally were Mahāyāna sūtras taken by Indians?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

illarraza
Posts: 571
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:30 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:00 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:32 pm
illarraza wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:46 pm



And since you do not believe it to be literally true, Minobu should be hassling you?
There are various teaching methods employed by the Buddha in the Lotus Sutra: simile; metaphor; parable [of which there are seven]; skillful or expedient means; logic; historical precedent; narration [current events and prior birth stories]; questions and answers; and most importantly, a direct exposition of his Enlightenment. When studying the Lotus Sutra one can reflect, "here the Buddha is speaking of his experience in a previous existence and here the Buddha is answering the question of Sariputra", etc. Are there worlds where the Buddha actually experienced parthenogenesis as the physiological method of reproducing the species or is it a metaphor or is it something else? Is the Treasure Tower a metaphor only? Bodhisattvas 500 feet tall on other worlds? Flying cars? Some things are fruitless to question or contemplate and the Buddha was silent.
Which raise all kinds of hermeneutical issues, not least of which is, did the Indian or Indians who wrote this text down take it literally at all? Indeed, how literally were Mahāyāna sūtras taken by Indians?
Vasubandhu demonstrated (believed) that even such phenomena as galaxies were produced by the karmic tendencies of a sole individual (Abhidharmakośa).

illarraza
Posts: 571
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:30 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:24 pm

The world according to Nichiren and his disciples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEIhB3VQg6E

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 26666
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:30 am

illarraza wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:00 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:32 pm
illarraza wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:28 pm


There are various teaching methods employed by the Buddha in the Lotus Sutra: simile; metaphor; parable [of which there are seven]; skillful or expedient means; logic; historical precedent; narration [current events and prior birth stories]; questions and answers; and most importantly, a direct exposition of his Enlightenment. When studying the Lotus Sutra one can reflect, "here the Buddha is speaking of his experience in a previous existence and here the Buddha is answering the question of Sariputra", etc. Are there worlds where the Buddha actually experienced parthenogenesis as the physiological method of reproducing the species or is it a metaphor or is it something else? Is the Treasure Tower a metaphor only? Bodhisattvas 500 feet tall on other worlds? Flying cars? Some things are fruitless to question or contemplate and the Buddha was silent.
Which raise all kinds of hermeneutical issues, not least of which is, did the Indian or Indians who wrote this text down take it literally at all? Indeed, how literally were Mahāyāna sūtras taken by Indians?
Vasubandhu demonstrated (believed) that even such phenomena as galaxies were produced by the karmic tendencies of a sole individual (Abhidharmakośa).
No he did not. That is a misreading of the first verse of the Karma chapter, one directly contradicted in other parts of the Kosha.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 1966
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Minobu » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:52 pm

illarraza wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:00 pm

Vasubandhu demonstrated (believed) that even such phenomena as galaxies were produced by the karmic tendencies of a sole individual (Abhidharmakośa).
i have a vague recollection of Rinpoche saying that Samsara is made up of karma...it's our karma that produces it...
i once mentioned this and someone hear verified that before this we were all beings of light and desire crept in and Samsara changed into this....long time ago...

then HHDL once or twice i read Him saying....when asked about God the Creator..."Sort of a self creation"

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