simultaneity of cause and effect

Post Reply
User avatar
rory
Posts: 1445
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 8:08 am
Location: SouthEast USA

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by rory » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:25 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:51 pm
liuzg150181 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:51 am
The Cicada wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:53 am

"Splendid! Splendid!"

:buddha1:

:namaste:
Afaik not really radical,it is from Tathāgatagarbha, one of the three mainstays of Mahayana teaching(along with Yogacara and Madhyamaka.
Ven Zhiyi is pre-Yogacara, in the sense that he was writing in a time before Yogacara became highly prominent as a mainstream discourse. It was still in the stages of disseminating in China at the time. That is also something to keep in mind when comparing Tiantai & Tiantai stolon schools to other Buddhisms that grew up in this fusion in East Asia. In fact, later Tiantai patriarchs would participate in the development and adoption of that threefold fusion you mentioned, but Tiantai has roots reaching into the extreme antiquity of Buddhism in China, and as such, has substantial parallel-but-different focusses and presentations.

Even this threefold fusion is subtley differently spoken of and presented in East Asia and Tibet.
You need to read more about Buddhist intellectual history, I advise J. Stone's " Original Enlightenment". Tathagatagarbha thought "in China would develop would develop into a major Mahayana tradition." p. 5. where on p. 8 she talks about Tiantai and Huayan as a reaction to ideas about the remoteness of buddhahood and alaya-vijnana. You can read it for free in Google Books.
about Yocacara:
Though the founding of Yogācāra is traditionally ascribed to two half-brothers, Asaṅga and Vasubandhu (fourth-fifth century C.E.), most of its fundamental doctrines had already appeared in a number of scriptures a century or more earlier, most notably the Saṅdhinirmocana Sūtra (Elucidating the Hidden Connections). Among the key Yogācāra concepts introduced in the Saṅdhinirmocana Sūtra are the notions of "only-cognition" (vijñapti-mātra), three self-natures (trisvabhāva), the ālaya-vijñāna (warehouse consciousness), overturning the basis (āśraya-parāvṛtti), and the theory of eight consciousnesses.
http://www.acmuller.net/yogacara/articles/intro.html Dan Lusthaus is a Harvard prof and writes on Yogacara
https://harvard.academia.edu/DanLusthaus

Please support your assertions with scholarship. I use that quote in my sig as I endured a tiresome discussion about the Dragon girl necessity of having to turn into a man before she could become a buddha over in the Mahayana forum as no one was familiar with Chih-I's reading of the Lotus Sutra; equality.....
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1563
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:37 pm

rory wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:25 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:51 pm
liuzg150181 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:51 am

Afaik not really radical,it is from Tathāgatagarbha, one of the three mainstays of Mahayana teaching(along with Yogacara and Madhyamaka.
Ven Zhiyi is pre-Yogacara, in the sense that he was writing in a time before Yogacara became highly prominent as a mainstream discourse. It was still in the stages of disseminating in China at the time. That is also something to keep in mind when comparing Tiantai & Tiantai stolon schools to other Buddhisms that grew up in this fusion in East Asia. In fact, later Tiantai patriarchs would participate in the development and adoption of that threefold fusion you mentioned, but Tiantai has roots reaching into the extreme antiquity of Buddhism in China, and as such, has substantial parallel-but-different focusses and presentations.

Even this threefold fusion is subtley differently spoken of and presented in East Asia and Tibet.
You need to read more about Buddhist intellectual history, I advise J. Stone's " Original Enlightenment". Tathagatagarbha thought "in China would develop would develop into a major Mahayana tradition." p. 5. where on p. 8 she talks about Tiantai and Huayan as a reaction to ideas about the remoteness of buddhahood and alaya-vijnana. You can read it for free in Google Books.
about Yocacara:
Though the founding of Yogācāra is traditionally ascribed to two half-brothers, Asaṅga and Vasubandhu (fourth-fifth century C.E.), most of its fundamental doctrines had already appeared in a number of scriptures a century or more earlier, most notably the Saṅdhinirmocana Sūtra (Elucidating the Hidden Connections). Among the key Yogācāra concepts introduced in the Saṅdhinirmocana Sūtra are the notions of "only-cognition" (vijñapti-mātra), three self-natures (trisvabhāva), the ālaya-vijñāna (warehouse consciousness), overturning the basis (āśraya-parāvṛtti), and the theory of eight consciousnesses.
http://www.acmuller.net/yogacara/articles/intro.html Dan Lusthaus is a Harvard prof and writes on Yogacara
https://harvard.academia.edu/DanLusthaus

Please support your assertions with scholarship. I use that quote in my sig as I endured a tiresome discussion about the Dragon girl necessity of having to turn into a man before she could become a buddha over in the Mahayana forum as no one was familiar with Chih-I's reading of the Lotus Sutra; equality.....
gassho
Rory
Most Yogācāra texts weren't translated yet. It would be another ~100 years after Ven Zhiyi until they gained prominence. Do to the wikipedia articles on East Asian Yogācāra. They will link you to Diana Paul's 1984 Philosophy of Mind in Sixth-century China: Paramārtha's "evolution of Consciousness" which discusses the state of the entry of different streams of Buddhadharma into China via translation efforts and the gradual introduction of new texts.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1563
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:49 pm

Here is the aforementioned private correspondence, from the archived personal letter 四念處:

"In Vasubandhu's theory of consciousness-only, there is only the one consciousness, but it is divided into the discriminating and the undiscriminating forms of consciousness; the discriminating consciousness is what we usually call consciousness, whereas the undiscriminating consciousness is "consciousness appearing to be an object" (sì chén shí / 似塵識). All the physical objects in the universe- vases, clothing, carts, and carriages- are all this undiscriminating form of consciousness.... But since they are all one nature, we can equally say that there are two forms of matter, the discriminating and the undiscriminating.... It is in this sense that the mind and matter are non-dual. Since he [Ven Vasubandhu] is able to say there are these two different forms of consciousness, we can equally say that they are two different forms of matter.... In the Integrated Teaching we can also say that all things are matter only, or sound only, or scent only, or flavour only, or tactile sensation only, or consciousness only. In sum, every dharma inherently mutually possesses all the dharmāḥ comprising dharmadhātu."

Cittamatra texts were only in basic circulation at the time. Ven Zhiyi hears "mind-only" and says "why the big deal? we already have this in China. If the world is 'mind' only, it might as well be 'shoe' only." To use layman's words, and through my idea of a layman's wording, obv.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1563
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:54 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:37 pm

Most Yogācāra texts weren't translated yet.
[Formatting post.]
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1563
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:09 pm

rory wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:25 pm
Please support your assertions with scholarship.
I also recommend Buddhism in China: A Historical Survey, an essay available in Antonio Cua's compilation Encyclopedia of Chinese Philosophy.

Around 400, the brothers Asanga and Vasubandhu built on other, later Mahayana sutras, and founded Yogacara, the idealist school of Yoga masters who, while accepting the doctrine of universal emptiness, qualified it by declaring that everything is empty because it is of the mind or is known through representations only (vijnaptimatrarata, 'consciousness only'). This school of thought entered China in the early sixth century but was rejected by many because it seemed to have a subjective bias, that is, it seemed to claim that there are no cognized objects; there is only cognition itself.

Zhiyi of the Tiantai school shared this opinion, so even though he knew Yogacara, he kept to Madhyamaka. He held that his "round"
would avoid both extremes: subjectivism and objectivism. He then pitted form against mind and subject against object, working out his threefold dialectics to ensure perfect harmony.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

Bristollad
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Bristollad » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:02 pm

liuzg150181 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:35 pm
Bristollad wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:09 am
liuzg150181 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:33 am
Do note that Tibetan Buddhism itself is not a homoegenous system, with different schools espousing a differing approaches and views(very likely Jan Nattier didn't realize this). So arguably the geshe in reference would likely be a Gelugpa(though I might be wrong).
The Gelugpa position on this is no different than the other Tibetan traditions - all sentient beings have Buddha nature. I suspect that what “Geshe Thubten” found shocking was something else, perhaps the emphasis on other-power?

The article itself (as distinct from the chosen quotes) seems to point to the difference between progress/gradual and leap/sudden approaches to understanding what it means to be a buddhist.
Emphasis on other-power should be familiar to Tibetan Buddhist as well,since Pureland practice - like Amitabha- is pretty well-known as popular in TB as well. And Pureland practice relies on 'other-power' one way or another.
In my own experience of teachings from several geshes, other power is not taught by them.
As for Gelugpa view on Buddha nature,so far for what I had read, Gelugpas generally considers 'Buddha nature' provisional teaching,considering it the second turning of wheel,with 'emptiness' as definite teaching(totally the opposite of Jonang,which believe the other way):
viewtopic.php?t=3456
"The mainstream Geluk position regarding the "Three Turnings of the Wheel" differs from that of other schools in some respects, as well. In general, the Geluk position regarding "Buddha Nature" is that it is not "inherently existent" in the sentient being, but that it is an expedient teaching, reflecting the "potential" of all sentient beings to attain enlightenment, by purifying habitual patterns and by amassing merit on the paths."
Yes there are some differences concerning the 3 kayas but that all sentient beings have buddha nature is fully accepted. Of course gelupas wouldn’t say that buddha nature is inherently existent; they hold that nothing is inherently existent! :smile:

Had a few teachings from Jhado rinpoche of Gelug school,and his presentation jives with what is quoted,as he mainly explained from the 'emptiness' pov without reference to Buddha nature directly afaik. If anything, nyingma lamas and rinpoches tend to explain extensively abt Buddha nature based on my experience, but again,the bulk of my learning came from Nyingma teachings,so it might be a form of selection bias.

As for progress/gradual and leap/sudden approaches,c'mon,even within different Tibetan schools it has debated until ad nauseam in the TB sub-forum. :tantrum:
I was simply saying the original article seemed to emphasis this sudden/gradual argument rather than whether all beings can become enlightened as the point of confusion for Thubten.

illarraza
Posts: 583
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:30 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:19 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:56 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:45 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:19 pm


Right, I don't accept either Zhiyi;s interpretation or Nichiren's of the Lotus Sūtra — I respect it, but I see no reason to believe it. It is a Sino-sphere thing, relevant only to it, based on a very parochial interpretation of what sūtras Buddha taught when during his lifetime. If one does not accept that scheme, which is not found outside Tientai-Tendai ideas about Buddhist history...
I don't know if others would agree with me, but, there is an aspect of upaya that is central to Tiantai teachings. Each view has its unique cure. It may not seem like it, but Zhiyi offered a cure for the wrong views that prevailed in China at his time. Zhanran later addressed the wrong views of his time. Saicho likewise in Japan. Nichiren followed this tradition.
Yes, I am very familiar with the system of dancing on the books of tenet systems.
These particular therapeutic teachings are described as "Relative Sublmity" (my translation/terminology). There is another aspect of the teaching that is called the Absolute Sublimity which is the real teaching, unalloyed - "not upaya", the direct awakening of the Buddha. I can understand rejecting the teachings that qualify as "Relative Sublimity" because those are conditioned teachings. I don't think anyone can reject the Absolute Sublimity - that would be rejecting the Buddha. Again, people might have problems with particular terminology, which is derivative of Relative Sublimity, but the Absolute Sublimity teaching is another story.
If you want to experience the the samyaksambodhi of a Buddha, all you have to do is find a teacher who can open your eyes.
Oh, you just forget. Why do you think you had the karmic disposition to resonate with the Heart Sutra and Nagarjuna?
Traces.
The teacher is a medium through which the Buddha's Pure and Far Reaching Voice reaches us. No one attains enlightenment without having received teaching from a Buddha directly or indirectly. Whether in this life, or another.
At least we agree on the need for a teacher.
The real test is whether it is what it says it is. Chocolate cake?
Mahāyāna Sūtras express beautifully what the awakening of a Buddha is, however, they do not provide a quick path for realizing that awakening. The path they teach is laborious and slow.

Slow and laborious like a horse and buggy (your Buddhism). Quick and svelt like a Concorde jet (the Lotus Sutra Buddhism of Nichiren).

Bristollad
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Bristollad » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:59 am

illarraza wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:19 am
Quick and svelt like a Concorde jet (the Lotus Sutra Buddhism of Nichiren).
Might what to rethink the simile: Concorde stopped flying in 2003 :thinking:

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27733
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:19 am

rory wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:21 am
If an eleven year old Dragon girl, can instantly transform into a Buddha the possiblity it open to all. Especially without lifetime after lifetime of practices to purge our bad karma.
The eleven year old nāgā princess was already an eighth stage bodhisattva, not an ordinary sentient being. In other words, she had already attained the path of seeing. And in fact she does transform into a male from prior to attaining buddhahood.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27733
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:20 am

illarraza wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:19 am
Slow and laborious like a horse and buggy (your Buddhism). Quick and svelt like a Concorde jet (the Lotus Sutra Buddhism of Nichiren).
Puffery is found in all lineages.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
liuzg150181
Posts: 245
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:41 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by liuzg150181 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:16 am

Bristollad wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:02 pm

In my own experience of teachings from several geshes, other power is not taught by them.
Fair enough,it is my own assumption that Pureland=other power. If anything,I had read from Chan master's comment that Pureland can be use to discover the 'Nature of mind' by those of highest calibre.
Though I am wondering if different schools would explain it differently,say by Nyingmapas. I presume you mainly attending Gelug teachings.
Yes there are some differences concerning the 3 kayas but that all sentient beings have buddha nature is fully accepted. Of course gelupas wouldn’t say that buddha nature is inherently existent; they hold that nothing is inherently existent! :smile:
Yup,nothing is inherently existent is how Gelugpas explain it. :smile:
I was simply saying the original article seemed to emphasis this sudden/gradual argument rather than whether all beings can become enlightened as the point of confusion for Thubten.
What i meant is that the whole pt of sudden/gradual might not be unfamiliar with Thubten,since it is even debated within Tibetan Buddhist systems(esp with respect to Dzogchen).

User avatar
rory
Posts: 1445
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 8:08 am
Location: SouthEast USA

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by rory » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:23 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:20 am
illarraza wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:19 am
Slow and laborious like a horse and buggy (your Buddhism). Quick and svelt like a Concorde jet (the Lotus Sutra Buddhism of Nichiren).
Puffery is found in all lineages.
All over East Asia it's accepted that Kannon can preach the Dharma to hungry ghosts taking the form of a hungry ghost, or as an animal, or as an insect and that being can attain liberation. Or at my altar I can transfer the benefits of prayer- nembutsu to that being so that they can be born in the Pure Land just as they are. You don't have to be born as a human, specifically as a human male to reach liberation.

That's huge, it's horizontal, it's democratic, and talking about birth in this life, it is swift as opposed to millenia....it's why East Asian Buddhism is devoted to the Lotus Sutra.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

User avatar
rory
Posts: 1445
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 8:08 am
Location: SouthEast USA

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by rory » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:46 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:09 pm
rory wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:25 pm
Please support your assertions with scholarship.
I also recommend Buddhism in China: A Historical Survey, an essay available in Antonio Cua's compilation Encyclopedia of Chinese Philosophy.

Around 400, the brothers Asanga and Vasubandhu built on other, later Mahayana sutras, and founded Yogacara, the idealist school of Yoga masters who, while accepting the doctrine of universal emptiness, qualified it by declaring that everything is empty because it is of the mind or is known through representations only (vijnaptimatrarata, 'consciousness only'). This school of thought entered China in the early sixth century but was rejected by many because it seemed to have a subjective bias, that is, it seemed to claim that there are no cognized objects; there is only cognition itself.

Zhiyi of the Tiantai school shared this opinion, so even though he knew Yogacara, he kept to Madhyamaka. He held that his "round"
would avoid both extremes: subjectivism and objectivism. He then pitted form against mind and subject against object, working out his threefold dialectics to ensure perfect harmony.
Thank you for the posts, very helpful to me to fill in my areas, super discussion. Hmm Zhiyi definitely interacted with Yogacara thought! look at this:
When observing the historical development, no one can ignore the early stages of Chinese Yogåcåra thought represented in the Dilun Shi and the Shelun Shi. In 'Zhiyi's (538-597) Reception, Interpretation, and Criticism of Dilun- and Shelun- Thoughts', Hans Kantor used the texts of Huiyuan (523-592) plus Dunhuang manuscripts to reconstruct the history and doctrines of early Chinese Yogåcåra schools. He also stressed the role played by these early Yogåcåra commentators in the shaping of Zhiyi's Tiantai philosophy. The interaction between Yogåcåra and Tiantai was clearly exposed.
https://iias.asia/iiasn/23/regions/23EA3.html
These were papers given at IIAS in Leiden in 2000, Hans-Rudolf Kantor is doing interesting work , you can download his papers online.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27733
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:42 pm

rory wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:23 am
You don't have to be born as a human, specifically as a human male to reach liberation.
In order to attain buddhahood, one must be born a human being with eight freedoms and ten endowments.

One cannot attain buddhahood if one is born in any other condition— hell being, preta, animal, asura, or deva, or even a human being who is lacking the eight freedoms and ten endowments.

So for example, in the nāgā princess story of which you are so fond, the nāgā princess was already a ārya bodhisattva abiding on the bodhisattva stages.

With respect to Avalokiteśvara (Kanon), of course Avalokiteśvara can manifest in any of the six lokas and bring solace to sentient beings in those realms. But no one can liberate anyone from any thing. Liberation is won by one's own effort alone. No one can practice the path for you.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27733
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:09 pm

rory wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:44 am
DGA, the entire point of Prof. Nattier's article is the Thubten the Tibetan Buddhist monk was appalled that the Lotus Sutra contradicted everything he was taught.
Professor Nattier does not actually specify just what is was that Thubten the monk found challenging. She actually does not know, so she guesses:
Rather, in the Lotusthe very idea of a path is radically undermined. Instead, practice is fulfilled by accepting, in all humility, Shakyamuni’s word that through faith one will attain Buddhahood in the future. As the closing lines of chapter 2 of the sutra put it, “Have no further doubts; rejoice greatly in your hearts, knowing that you will become Buddhas.”

It is this, I suspect, that was the primary cause of Thubten’s consternation. Although Tibetan Buddhism has largely jettisoned arhatship as a valid goal, it has maintained a strong commitment to the notion of spiritual cultivation. To hear the Buddha proclaim that every practitioner is destined for Buddhahood—even those who, like the legendary betrayer of the dharma, Devadatta, are guilty of heinous crimes—would seem to subvert the very foundation of the long and demanding practice of the bodhisattva path.
Such a statement does not undermine the need for a long and strenuous path, it is in fact a remedy for some Hinayāna notions that to attain buddhahood as a buddha, one must be a bodhisattva specifically predicted by a Buddha such as Dipaṃkara Buddha (as in the case of Śākyamuni himself in a past life) and so on. So here, in the Lotus, the Buddha is predicting all sentient beings for eventual buddhahood.

This is not even slightly controversial in Tibetan Buddhism (not that you will pay attention to a single word I say). For example, Master Sonam Tsemo states:

The fourth is the position of some masters among the followers of the Saddharmapundarika-sūtra.

That is, that there is a single result for the three paths, citing the parable of the burning house. The idea of Ekayāna is noncontroversial in Tibetan Buddhism.

When there is an analysis of vehicles it is from the point of view of inclination, not from the point of view of the result. There is only one result.
The buddhanature of Devadatta is no different than my buddhanature or that of my cat or that of the Buddha.
This is the great Dharma that I and so many follow.
This idea of tathāgatagarbha simply is not unique to the Tien tai no matter what you may think.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
liuzg150181
Posts: 245
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:41 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by liuzg150181 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:42 pm

With respect to Avalokiteśvara (Kanon), of course Avalokiteśvara can manifest in any of the six lokas and bring solace to sentient beings in those realms. But no one can liberate anyone from any thing. Liberation is won by one's own effort alone. No one can practice the path for you.
Wait,you mean Tibetan Buddhism rejects 'other-power',even when Pure Land practice is concerned? :shock:

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27733
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:58 pm

liuzg150181 wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:42 pm

With respect to Avalokiteśvara (Kanon), of course Avalokiteśvara can manifest in any of the six lokas and bring solace to sentient beings in those realms. But no one can liberate anyone from any thing. Liberation is won by one's own effort alone. No one can practice the path for you.
Wait,you mean Tibetan Buddhism rejects 'other-power',even when Pure Land practice is concerned? :shock:
That depends on what you mean by "other-power." But from a Pure Land POV, TB is definitely a jiriki system, like Shingon, etc.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Ricky
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Ricky » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:58 pm
liuzg150181 wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:42 pm

With respect to Avalokiteśvara (Kanon), of course Avalokiteśvara can manifest in any of the six lokas and bring solace to sentient beings in those realms. But no one can liberate anyone from any thing. Liberation is won by one's own effort alone. No one can practice the path for you.
Wait,you mean Tibetan Buddhism rejects 'other-power',even when Pure Land practice is concerned? :shock:
That depends on what you mean by "other-power." But from a Pure Land POV, TB is definitely a jiriki system, like Shingon, etc.
Buddhas having the ability to take someone out of samsara by reciting that particular buddha's name?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27733
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:58 pm

Ricky wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:26 pm
Buddhas having the ability to take someone out of samsara by reciting that particular buddha's name?
If someone with full faith recites Amitabha's name, they will take rebirth in Sukhavati. But it is still a slow path.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1563
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:12 pm

rory wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:46 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:09 pm
rory wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:25 pm
Please support your assertions with scholarship.
I also recommend Buddhism in China: A Historical Survey, an essay available in Antonio Cua's compilation Encyclopedia of Chinese Philosophy.

Around 400, the brothers Asanga and Vasubandhu built on other, later Mahayana sutras, and founded Yogacara, the idealist school of Yoga masters who, while accepting the doctrine of universal emptiness, qualified it by declaring that everything is empty because it is of the mind or is known through representations only (vijnaptimatrarata, 'consciousness only'). This school of thought entered China in the early sixth century but was rejected by many because it seemed to have a subjective bias, that is, it seemed to claim that there are no cognized objects; there is only cognition itself.

Zhiyi of the Tiantai school shared this opinion, so even though he knew Yogacara, he kept to Madhyamaka. He held that his "round"
would avoid both extremes: subjectivism and objectivism. He then pitted form against mind and subject against object, working out his threefold dialectics to ensure perfect harmony.
Thank you for the posts, very helpful to me to fill in my areas, super discussion. Hmm Zhiyi definitely interacted with Yogacara thought! look at this:
When observing the historical development, no one can ignore the early stages of Chinese Yogåcåra thought represented in the Dilun Shi and the Shelun Shi. In 'Zhiyi's (538-597) Reception, Interpretation, and Criticism of Dilun- and Shelun- Thoughts', Hans Kantor used the texts of Huiyuan (523-592) plus Dunhuang manuscripts to reconstruct the history and doctrines of early Chinese Yogåcåra schools. He also stressed the role played by these early Yogåcåra commentators in the shaping of Zhiyi's Tiantai philosophy. The interaction between Yogåcåra and Tiantai was clearly exposed.
https://iias.asia/iiasn/23/regions/23EA3.html
These were papers given at IIAS in Leiden in 2000, Hans-Rudolf Kantor is doing interesting work , you can download his papers online.
gassho
Rory
Thank you for the papers.

If you will forgive me my hubris in suggesting that I can do so, I would like to unpack our exchange, because I feel that there has been a miscommunication.

I never meant to imply that Ven Zhìyǐ never saw a single Yogācāra text in his life. My own citations (several forthcoming from an ealier post that I took too long to edit) disprove that. However, I did call Ven Zhìyǐ "pre-Yogācara", but I meant that in a very specific way. The 3fold tathāgatagarbha-madhyamaka-yogācāra fusion was in its infant stages with Ven Zhìyǐ, is what I meant. By 'infant stages', I mean, there were only the seeds of contemporary extant mainstream Buddhism at the time when Ven Zhìyǐ was writing, and by "contemporary Buddhism" I refer to specifically "contemporary methodologies of explaining and contextualizing dharma". "Contemporary Zen", for instance, we can all agree was not around.

Incidentally, this recent exchange of ours is a sequel to a less recent exchange here.

There is no substantial contradiction between Yogācāra & Tiāntāi, the proof being that after Ven Zhìyǐ, later Tiāntāi patriarchs like Ven Zhànrán would seamlessly incorporate Yogācāra into the synthesis, not by twisting or negating the words of his teacher, but rather, by having a better exposure available to him of the particular teaching in question (the mind-only perspective).

Hopefully this dispels any implications to my words that were unintended.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

Post Reply

Return to “Nichiren”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 20 guests