simultaneity of cause and effect

DGA
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by DGA » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:47 pm

rory wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:25 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:51 pm
liuzg150181 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:51 am

Afaik not really radical,it is from Tathāgatagarbha, one of the three mainstays of Mahayana teaching(along with Yogacara and Madhyamaka.
Ven Zhiyi is pre-Yogacara, in the sense that he was writing in a time before Yogacara became highly prominent as a mainstream discourse. It was still in the stages of disseminating in China at the time. That is also something to keep in mind when comparing Tiantai & Tiantai stolon schools to other Buddhisms that grew up in this fusion in East Asia. In fact, later Tiantai patriarchs would participate in the development and adoption of that threefold fusion you mentioned, but Tiantai has roots reaching into the extreme antiquity of Buddhism in China, and as such, has substantial parallel-but-different focusses and presentations.

Even this threefold fusion is subtley differently spoken of and presented in East Asia and Tibet.
You need to read more about Buddhist intellectual history, I advise J. Stone's " Original Enlightenment". Tathagatagarbha thought "in China would develop would develop into a major Mahayana tradition." p. 5. where on p. 8 she talks about Tiantai and Huayan as a reaction to ideas about the remoteness of buddhahood and alaya-vijnana. You can read it for free in Google Books.
about Yocacara:
Though the founding of Yogācāra is traditionally ascribed to two half-brothers, Asaṅga and Vasubandhu (fourth-fifth century C.E.), most of its fundamental doctrines had already appeared in a number of scriptures a century or more earlier, most notably the Saṅdhinirmocana Sūtra (Elucidating the Hidden Connections). Among the key Yogācāra concepts introduced in the Saṅdhinirmocana Sūtra are the notions of "only-cognition" (vijñapti-mātra), three self-natures (trisvabhāva), the ālaya-vijñāna (warehouse consciousness), overturning the basis (āśraya-parāvṛtti), and the theory of eight consciousnesses.
http://www.acmuller.net/yogacara/articles/intro.html Dan Lusthaus is a Harvard prof and writes on Yogacara
https://harvard.academia.edu/DanLusthaus

Please support your assertions with scholarship. I use that quote in my sig as I endured a tiresome discussion about the Dragon girl necessity of having to turn into a man before she could become a buddha over in the Mahayana forum as no one was familiar with Chih-I's reading of the Lotus Sutra; equality.....
gassho
Rory
I replied to the substance of this post here because it touches on issues that are off-topic to this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=102&t=27263

Parenthetically: you are not the only one who finds the debates that go on regarding the naga princess in the Lotus Sutra to be tiresome, but for different reasons than you presume. The problem is not exposure to Zhiyi''s thinking. Rather, the problem is just as often that many Buddhists do not agree with Zhiyi, do not find his reasoning plausible in light of what the text says, &c.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by DGA » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:09 pm
rory wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:44 am
DGA, the entire point of Prof. Nattier's article is the Thubten the Tibetan Buddhist monk was appalled that the Lotus Sutra contradicted everything he was taught.
Professor Nattier does not actually specify just what is was that Thubten the monk found challenging. She actually does not know, so she guesses:
Rather, in the Lotusthe very idea of a path is radically undermined. Instead, practice is fulfilled by accepting, in all humility, Shakyamuni’s word that through faith one will attain Buddhahood in the future. As the closing lines of chapter 2 of the sutra put it, “Have no further doubts; rejoice greatly in your hearts, knowing that you will become Buddhas.”

It is this, I suspect, that was the primary cause of Thubten’s consternation. Although Tibetan Buddhism has largely jettisoned arhatship as a valid goal, it has maintained a strong commitment to the notion of spiritual cultivation. To hear the Buddha proclaim that every practitioner is destined for Buddhahood—even those who, like the legendary betrayer of the dharma, Devadatta, are guilty of heinous crimes—would seem to subvert the very foundation of the long and demanding practice of the bodhisattva path.
Such a statement does not undermine the need for a long and strenuous path, it is in fact a remedy for some Hinayāna notions that to attain buddhahood as a buddha, one must be a bodhisattva specifically predicted by a Buddha such as Dipaṃkara Buddha (as in the case of Śākyamuni himself in a past life) and so on. So here, in the Lotus, the Buddha is predicting all sentient beings for eventual buddhahood.

This is not even slightly controversial in Tibetan Buddhism (not that you will pay attention to a single word I say). For example, Master Sonam Tsemo states:

The fourth is the position of some masters among the followers of the Saddharmapundarika-sūtra.

That is, that there is a single result for the three paths, citing the parable of the burning house. The idea of Ekayāna is noncontroversial in Tibetan Buddhism.

When there is an analysis of vehicles it is from the point of view of inclination, not from the point of view of the result. There is only one result.
The buddhanature of Devadatta is no different than my buddhanature or that of my cat or that of the Buddha.
This is the great Dharma that I and so many follow.
This idea of tathāgatagarbha simply is not unique to the Tien tai no matter what you may think.
Nattier is just generalizing from the particular, which is a very weak way to present an argument. It's the kind of thinking that should and often does ensure that you don't get to complete your graduate program.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by The Cicada » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:16 pm

rory wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:25 pm
Please support your assertions with scholarship. I use that quote in my sig as I endured a tiresome discussion about the Dragon girl necessity of having to turn into a man before she could become a buddha over in the Mahayana forum as no one was familiar with Chih-I's reading of the Lotus Sutra; equality.....
gassho
Rory
Well, I would just like to step forward here and clarify that my opposition to this idea in the past was partially just trolling, (I realize that, for example, the goddess in the Vimalakirti Sutra doesn't derive her power from Shariputra,) and partially making a valid point. Nichiren actually writes that Shakyamuni's own seeming depreciations towards women were merely admonishments, so I'm not alone in this. Of course, during his lifetime, so many headstrong nuns would not follow his rules and would get hurt or raped. Who can correct such wellborn sisters?

The equality of our Buddha-nature isn't the same as being equal in form. Your cat, for instance, cannot legally drive and should not be able to, IMO. If me and your cat are drafted because of a terrible war, your cat cannot pick me up and carry me to safety if I'm injured. (Theoretically, your cat might have a greater talent for camera-aided reconnaissance than most hominid Americans.)

The point of the equality of the Lotus Sutra is our equality in Buddhahood despite our differences otherwise, the need to respect one another because of that fundamental equality, and the ability to manifest that potential as we are. We may not all be as cool as Elvis Crespo, but we can all come to a perfect bloom under the rain of the Buddha's sublime Dharma preached in the Lotus Sutra.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:56 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:45 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:19 pm


Right, I don't accept either Zhiyi;s interpretation or Nichiren's of the Lotus Sūtra — I respect it, but I see no reason to believe it. It is a Sino-sphere thing, relevant only to it, based on a very parochial interpretation of what sūtras Buddha taught when during his lifetime. If one does not accept that scheme, which is not found outside Tientai-Tendai ideas about Buddhist history...
I don't know if others would agree with me, but, there is an aspect of upaya that is central to Tiantai teachings. Each view has its unique cure. It may not seem like it, but Zhiyi offered a cure for the wrong views that prevailed in China at his time. Zhanran later addressed the wrong views of his time. Saicho likewise in Japan. Nichiren followed this tradition.
Yes, I am very familiar with the system of dancing on the books of tenet systems.
These particular therapeutic teachings are described as "Relative Sublmity" (my translation/terminology). There is another aspect of the teaching that is called the Absolute Sublimity which is the real teaching, unalloyed - "not upaya", the direct awakening of the Buddha. I can understand rejecting the teachings that qualify as "Relative Sublimity" because those are conditioned teachings. I don't think anyone can reject the Absolute Sublimity - that would be rejecting the Buddha. Again, people might have problems with particular terminology, which is derivative of Relative Sublimity, but the Absolute Sublimity teaching is another story.
If you want to experience the the samyaksambodhi of a Buddha, all you have to do is find a teacher who can open your eyes.
Oh, you just forget. Why do you think you had the karmic disposition to resonate with the Heart Sutra and Nagarjuna?
Traces.
The teacher is a medium through which the Buddha's Pure and Far Reaching Voice reaches us. No one attains enlightenment without having received teaching from a Buddha directly or indirectly. Whether in this life, or another.
At least we agree on the need for a teacher.
The real test is whether it is what it says it is. Chocolate cake?
Mahāyāna Sūtras express beautifully what the awakening of a Buddha is, however, they do not provide a quick path for realizing that awakening. The path they teach is laborious and slow.
Our teachers are Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren Daishonin, teachers without peer.

Mark

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:45 pm

illarraza wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:24 pm

Our teachers are Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren Daishonin, teachers without peer.

Mark
In this sūtra, including the chapter you mention, there is no actual method demonstrated for an ordinary person to attain buddhahood in a single lifetime.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:48 pm

There are various teaching methods employed by the Buddha in the Lotus Sutra: simile; metaphor; parable [of which there are seven]; skillful or expedient means; logic; historical precedent; narration [current events and prior birth stories]; questions and answers; and most importantly, a direct exposition of his Enlightenment. When studying the Lotus Sutra one can reflect, "here the Buddha is speaking of his experience in a previous existence and here the Buddha is answering the question of Sariputra", etc. Are there worlds where the Buddha actually experienced parthenogenesis as the physiological method of reproducing the species or is it a metaphor or is it something else? Is the Treasure Tower a metaphor only? Bodhisattvas 500 feet tall on other worlds? Flying cars? Some things are fruitless to question or contemplate and the Buddha was silent.

Lastly the principle of Ichinen Sanzen is unsurpassed whether theoretical, the 3000 Realms in a Momentary Existence of Life of person, society, and environment simultaneously and the reality of Actual Ichinen Sanzen [the Daimoku and the Gohonzon]. Let me expound a bit more on the Lotus Sutra and other religious faiths:

Each person, society, and environment, even the Buddha's land has a defiled and pure aspect. When the pure aspect is manifest we speak in terms of Enlightenment. When the defiled aspect manifests, we speak of delusion. Were there not the inferior teachings to contrast with the Lotus Sutra there would be no way of ascertaining the truth. Likewise, were there no deluded teachers, we could never come to know the merits and virtues of Shakyamuni Buddha and Nichiren Daishonin, teachers without peer.

Generally, those who have faith in and practice the Lotus Sutra are Bodhisattvas of the Earth. Specifically, Nichiren Daishonin is the Supreme Votary of the Lotus Sutra. Generally we are all Buddhas but specifically, from a deeper sense, Shakyamuni Buddha is the Original Eternal Buddha. From the deepest sense, we are the Three Bodied Tathagata of Original Enlightenment, Shakyamuni Buddha ourselves. Nichiren teaches that this most difficult to believe and most difficult to understand teaching should not be bandied about lightly. In our mundane thoughts and activities, it is best to think in terms of the general meaning, having gratitude for and giving praise to the Lotus Sutra [Law], Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni and Nichiren Daishonin. Similar reasonings can be given in the case of our relationship to the Law. Generally, everyone is a manifestation of the Mystic Law, even a dust mite. Specifically, Shakyamuni Buddha and Nichiren Daishonin are those who are one with the Mystic Law. There is a saying derived from the Infinite Meanings Sutra, the introduction to the Lotus Sutra: "Infinite meanings derive from the one Law." Equally, infinite phenomena derive from the one Law.

Even Nichiren Daishonin and the Buddha couldn't convert everyone. "To the best of our ability" while employing the strategy of the Lotus Sutra and the wisdom of the Buddha is the means outlined by the Buddha and Nichiren Daishonin to awaken the masses of beings. The Three Proofs, documentary, theoretical, and actual is what will capture other's attention. For example, in converting a Christian or Muslim, documentary proof is comparing and contrasting the Bible or Q'uran with the Lotus Sutra. Theoretical proof is pointing out the reasonableness and sound logic of such concepts as the Mutual Possession of the Ten Worlds and 3000 Realms in a Momentary Existence of Life [Ichinen Sanzen], and the functioning of the Law of Cause and effect. Proof of actual fact is the joy of practicing this teaching, overcoming our limitations and pointing out the hellish reality of a society based on Judeo-Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, provisional Buddhism, and even scientific rationalism.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:53 pm

illarraza wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:48 pm
There are various teaching methods employed by the Buddha in the Lotus Sutra...
Teaching methods are methods used by someone to explain something. Methods of attaining awakening in common Mahāyāna are restricted to the six perfections.

The six perfections take a long time to complete, birth after birth, life after life.

As I said, the Saddharmapundarika does not teach a unique path.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:53 pm
illarraza wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:48 pm
There are various teaching methods employed by the Buddha in the Lotus Sutra...
Teaching methods are methods used by someone to explain something. Methods of attaining awakening in common Mahāyāna are restricted to the six perfections.

The six perfections take a long time to complete, birth after birth, life after life.

As I said, the Saddharmapundarika does not teach a unique path.
And now the conversation has arrived at the intersection, or perhaps the impasse, of the Lotus Sutra as an Indian literary endavour v.s. the Lotus Sutra as teaching ichinen sanzen etc, that is to say, the Lotus Sutra as elaborated. Two very different texts it seems.

I haven't read the Dharma Flower's Profound Meaning, Ven Zhiyi's commentary on the LS, but it will be interesting to see how he divines this from/into/with the text once I have access to it.

Suffice to say, according to Nichiren et al, there is 'a teaching' in there, a method in there. It is not one that I would suspect that the Indians necessarily found in there.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:37 pm

DGA wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:08 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:39 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:58 pm

The Lotus is the universal gate by which all enter the Buddhapath.
BTW, the Lotus is not the only sūtra which teaches ekayāna, upaya, etc. And, in fact, it is pretty thin, doctrinally-speaking, lacking the richness of the PP sūtras, Samdhinirmocana, Lanka, when it comes to explanations of emptiness, consciousness, the path, etc. However, I can see why the narratives found within the Avatamska and Lotus are very appealing to the Sinosphere.
I think there is a significant and interesting issue in here that would be worthwhile to probe. To that end:

I think QQ is arguing that exposure to the Lotus Sutra is a necessary and sufficient cause to enter Dharma practice and attain Buddhahood. Is this correct, Queequeg? If so, on what basis do you make this claim (which chapter of the sutra)?

Malcolm, what is a sufficient cause for a sentient being to enter Dharma practice?
Chapter 10 of the Lotus Sutra should answer your questions. Sufficient but not necessarily necessary since one can attain Buddhahood merely by reverently offering a mudpie to the Buddha. However, as clearly delineated in the Sutra, the great preponderance of the Enlightened throughout the universe have done so thanks to the Lotus Sutra (see Chapter 15).

Mark

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:59 pm

Bristollad wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:09 am
liuzg150181 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:33 am
Do note that Tibetan Buddhism itself is not a homoegenous system, with different schools espousing a differing approaches and views(very likely Jan Nattier didn't realize this). So arguably the geshe in reference would likely be a Gelugpa(though I might be wrong).
The Gelugpa position on this is no different than the other Tibetan traditions - all sentient beings have Buddha nature. I suspect that what “Geshe Thubten” found shocking was something else, perhaps the emphasis on other-power?

The article itself (as distinct from the chosen quotes) seems to point to the difference between progress/gradual and leap/sudden approaches to understanding what it means to be a buddhist.
There are Four Powers in Lotus Sutra Buddhism. The Power of Faith and the Power of Practice are the two causes of Buddhahood. The Power of the Law and the Power of the Buddha are the two conditions of Buddhahood. Causes and conditions.

Mark

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:37 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:42 pm
rory wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:23 am
You don't have to be born as a human, specifically as a human male to reach liberation.
In order to attain buddhahood, one must be born a human being with eight freedoms and ten endowments.

One cannot attain buddhahood if one is born in any other condition— hell being, preta, animal, asura, or deva, or even a human being who is lacking the eight freedoms and ten endowments.

So for example, in the nāgā princess story of which you are so fond, the nāgā princess was already a ārya bodhisattva abiding on the bodhisattva stages.

With respect to Avalokiteśvara (Kanon), of course Avalokiteśvara can manifest in any of the six lokas and bring solace to sentient beings in those realms. But no one can liberate anyone from any thing. Liberation is won by one's own effort alone. No one can practice the path for you.
Not according to the Lotus Sutra, Nirvana Sutra, Nichiren, nor Nargajuna. Nichiren writes:

"The scripture known as the Nirvana Sutra lists the beings that have been able to attain the way through the Lotus Sutra, and the list includes such filthy creatures as dung beetles, vipers, and scorpions. To express the wonderful power of the Lotus Sutra, Bodhisattva Nāgārjuna says that it enables even such creatures as dung beetles to attain Buddhahood.*"

*The Treatise on the Great Perfection of Wisdom.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:50 am

DGA wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:47 pm
rory wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:25 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:51 pm


Ven Zhiyi is pre-Yogacara, in the sense that he was writing in a time before Yogacara became highly prominent as a mainstream discourse. It was still in the stages of disseminating in China at the time. That is also something to keep in mind when comparing Tiantai & Tiantai stolon schools to other Buddhisms that grew up in this fusion in East Asia. In fact, later Tiantai patriarchs would participate in the development and adoption of that threefold fusion you mentioned, but Tiantai has roots reaching into the extreme antiquity of Buddhism in China, and as such, has substantial parallel-but-different focusses and presentations.

Even this threefold fusion is subtley differently spoken of and presented in East Asia and Tibet.
You need to read more about Buddhist intellectual history, I advise J. Stone's " Original Enlightenment". Tathagatagarbha thought "in China would develop would develop into a major Mahayana tradition." p. 5. where on p. 8 she talks about Tiantai and Huayan as a reaction to ideas about the remoteness of buddhahood and alaya-vijnana. You can read it for free in Google Books.
about Yocacara:
Though the founding of Yogācāra is traditionally ascribed to two half-brothers, Asaṅga and Vasubandhu (fourth-fifth century C.E.), most of its fundamental doctrines had already appeared in a number of scriptures a century or more earlier, most notably the Saṅdhinirmocana Sūtra (Elucidating the Hidden Connections). Among the key Yogācāra concepts introduced in the Saṅdhinirmocana Sūtra are the notions of "only-cognition" (vijñapti-mātra), three self-natures (trisvabhāva), the ālaya-vijñāna (warehouse consciousness), overturning the basis (āśraya-parāvṛtti), and the theory of eight consciousnesses.
http://www.acmuller.net/yogacara/articles/intro.html Dan Lusthaus is a Harvard prof and writes on Yogacara
https://harvard.academia.edu/DanLusthaus

Please support your assertions with scholarship. I use that quote in my sig as I endured a tiresome discussion about the Dragon girl necessity of having to turn into a man before she could become a buddha over in the Mahayana forum as no one was familiar with Chih-I's reading of the Lotus Sutra; equality.....
gassho
Rory
I replied to the substance of this post here because it touches on issues that are off-topic to this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=102&t=27263

Parenthetically: you are not the only one who finds the debates that go on regarding the naga princess in the Lotus Sutra to be tiresome, but for different reasons than you presume. The problem is not exposure to Zhiyi''s thinking. Rather, the problem is just as often that many Buddhists do not agree with Zhiyi, do not find his reasoning plausible in light of what the text says, &c.
What the text says...

He profoundly understands the signs of guilt and good fortune
and illuminates the ten directions everywhere.
His subtle, wonderful, pure Dharma body
is endowed with the thirty-two features;
the eighty characteristics
adorn his Dharma body.
Heavenly and human beings gaze up in awe,
dragons too all pay honor and respect;
among all living beings,
none who do not hold him in reverence.
And having heard his teachings, I have attained enlightenment—
the Buddha alone can bear witness to this.
I unfold the doctrines of the great vehicle
to rescue living beings from suffering.

She states: "I have attained enlightenment" BEFORE she transforms herself into a man in order to show the disbeliever Shariputra that she indeed was enlightened. What's the beef with what Tientai and Nichiren teach? To the believers in Nichiren, we laugh at any other interpretation of the Lotus Sutra than his. Why? Because Nichiren is the Supreme Votary of the Lotus Sutra and you all, you and Malcolm in particular, are nothing but base icchantikas.

Mark

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:15 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:45 pm
illarraza wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:24 pm

Our teachers are Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren Daishonin, teachers without peer.

Mark
In this sūtra, including the chapter you mention, there is no actual method demonstrated for an ordinary person to attain buddhahood in a single lifetime.
Read Chapter 17 and get back to me.

Mark

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:23 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:53 pm
illarraza wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:48 pm
There are various teaching methods employed by the Buddha in the Lotus Sutra...
Teaching methods are methods used by someone to explain something. Methods of attaining awakening in common Mahāyāna are restricted to the six perfections.

The six perfections take a long time to complete, birth after birth, life after life.

As I said, the Saddharmapundarika does not teach a unique path.

With one moment of un-shakable belief in the lifespan of the Buddha the six perfections are perfectly manifest, prajna-paramitra excepted. Do you know why prajna-paramitra is excepted?

Mark

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:26 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:31 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:53 pm
illarraza wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:48 pm
There are various teaching methods employed by the Buddha in the Lotus Sutra...
Teaching methods are methods used by someone to explain something. Methods of attaining awakening in common Mahāyāna are restricted to the six perfections.

The six perfections take a long time to complete, birth after birth, life after life.

As I said, the Saddharmapundarika does not teach a unique path.
And now the conversation has arrived at the intersection, or perhaps the impasse, of the Lotus Sutra as an Indian literary endavour v.s. the Lotus Sutra as teaching ichinen sanzen etc, that is to say, the Lotus Sutra as elaborated. Two very different texts it seems.

I haven't read the Dharma Flower's Profound Meaning, Ven Zhiyi's commentary on the LS, but it will be interesting to see how he divines this from/into/with the text once I have access to it.

Suffice to say, according to Nichiren et al, there is 'a teaching' in there, a method in there. It is not one that I would suspect that the Indians necessarily found in there.
According to Nichiren, Nargajuna and Vasabandhu realized it but the time was not right to reveal it.

Mark

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by rory » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:59 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:42 pm
rory wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:23 am
You don't have to be born as a human, specifically as a human male to reach liberation.
In order to attain buddhahood, one must be born a human being with eight freedoms and ten endowments.

One cannot attain buddhahood if one is born in any other condition— hell being, preta, animal, asura, or deva, or even a human being who is lacking the eight freedoms and ten endowments.

So for example, in the nāgā princess story of which you are so fond, the nāgā princess was already a ārya bodhisattva abiding on the bodhisattva stages.

With respect to Avalokiteśvara (Kanon), of course Avalokiteśvara can manifest in any of the six lokas and bring solace to sentient beings in those realms. But no one can liberate anyone from any thing. Liberation is won by one's own effort alone. No one can practice the path for you.
Malcolm: the Sutras, the words of the Buddha contradict you.. I leave it to my Pure Land brothers to show you the exact passages in the Pure Land Sutras. I put my faith in the words of the Buddha not you!
At that time, Shariputra spoke to the Dragon Girl, saying, "You claim quick attainment to the Supreme Path. This is difficult to believe. Why? The body of a woman is filthy and not a vessel for the Dharma. How can you attain to the Supreme Bodhi? The Buddha Path is remote and distant. Only after one has passed through limitless aeons, diligently bearing suffering and accumulating one�s conduct, perfecting one�s cultivation of all Paramitas, can one then attain realization. What is more, a woman�s body has Five Obstacles: one, she cannot become a Brahma heaven king; two, she cannot become Shakra; three, she cannot become a Mara king; four, she cannot become a Wheel Turning Sage king; five, she cannot become a Buddha. How can a woman quickly realize Buddhahood?"

Now the Dragon Girl had a precious pearl, its worth equal to the entire system of three thousand great thousand worlds, which she took before the Buddha and presented to him. The Buddha immediately accepted it. The Dragon Girl then said to Wisdom Accumulation and the venerable Shariputra, "I just offered up this precious pearl and the World Honored One accepted it. Was that quick or not?"

"Very quick!" They answered.

The girl said, "With your spiritual powers, watch as I become a Buddha even more quickly than that!" At that moment, the entire assembly saw the Dragon Girl suddenly transform into a man and perfect the Bodhisattva conduct. Instantly she went off to the south, to the world without filth, where, seated on a jeweled lotus, she accomplished Equal and Proper Enlightenment and embodied the Thirty two Marks and Eighty Minor Characteristics. There, for the sake of all living beings throughout the ten directions, she proceeded to proclaim the wonderful Dharma.

While the Bodhisattvas, Sound Hearers, gods, dragon, and the rest of the Eightfold Division, both humans and non-humans in the Saha world all watched from a distance as the Dragon Girl became a Buddha and spoke the Dharma for all the gods and humans
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/reso ... otus12.htm
This is the teaching of the Lotus Sutra!
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

narhwal90
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by narhwal90 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:29 am

Bikkhu Bodi has a series on the Lotus Sutra on youtube, IIRC he concurs that the dragon king's daughter did not turn into a man before attaining enlightenment & views the "turn into a man" proposition as a cultural distortion not supported by the text.

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liuzg150181
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by liuzg150181 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:00 am

illarraza wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:59 pm
Bristollad wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:09 am
liuzg150181 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:33 am
Do note that Tibetan Buddhism itself is not a homoegenous system, with different schools espousing a differing approaches and views(very likely Jan Nattier didn't realize this). So arguably the geshe in reference would likely be a Gelugpa(though I might be wrong).
The Gelugpa position on this is no different than the other Tibetan traditions - all sentient beings have Buddha nature. I suspect that what “Geshe Thubten” found shocking was something else, perhaps the emphasis on other-power?

The article itself (as distinct from the chosen quotes) seems to point to the difference between progress/gradual and leap/sudden approaches to understanding what it means to be a buddhist.
There are Four Powers in Lotus Sutra Buddhism. The Power of Faith and the Power of Practice are the two causes of Buddhahood. The Power of the Law and the Power of the Buddha are the two conditions of Buddhahood. Causes and conditions.

Mark
This?:
http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/F/195

Actually,doesnt look much different from TB apart from presentation,if anything it seems applicable to other Mahayana Buddhism,or even Buddhism in general.

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liuzg150181
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by liuzg150181 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:01 am

narhwal90 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:29 am
Bikkhu Bodi has a series on the Lotus Sutra on youtube, IIRC he concurs that the dragon king's daughter did not turn into a man before attaining enlightenment & views the "turn into a man" proposition as a cultural distortion not supported by the text.
May you provide the link to the youtube vid?

narhwal90
Posts: 535
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by narhwal90 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:55 am

I did some digging thru my youtube history, best I could find was a series of 3 lectures he gave on the Majjhima Nikaya







but he's done quite a few dozens along those lines. I couldn't find the exact vid I was looking for- as I recall he took up the sutra from chapter 1 and interpreted as he went, taking questions along the way. Sorry I can't be more precise...

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