simultaneity of cause and effect

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The Cicada
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by The Cicada » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:09 am

narhwal90 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:29 am
Bikkhu Bodi has a series on the Lotus Sutra on youtube, IIRC he concurs that the dragon king's daughter did not turn into a man before attaining enlightenment & views the "turn into a man" proposition as a cultural distortion not supported by the text.
I don't think the wording is crucial either way when it comes to the idea of whether women can express perfect enlightenment in their current forms. Whether cats should be allowed in combat is an entirely different debate. I don't believe that ASVAB standards should be modified to allow them to, for example.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Minobu » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:04 pm

So the Dragon Lady turns herself into a man and attains Buddhahood.

In order to attain enlightenment , full blown physiological enlightenment of body and mind , you need the proper chakras and channels.

this is why the human form is most desired.
So in this case the Dragon Lady turned herself into a man or human being and instantly became a Buddha.

it's the fact she was able to transform into a human being ...Instead of getting hung up on some sort women's equality over man's equality is missing the entire point of the Sutra's imagery.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:18 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:29 am
Bikkhu Bodi has a series on the Lotus Sutra on youtube, IIRC he concurs that the dragon king's daughter did not turn into a man before attaining enlightenment & views the "turn into a man" proposition as a cultural distortion not supported by the text.
It is precisely supported by the text:

sāgaranāgarājaduhitā sarvalokapratyakṣaṃ sthavirasya ca śāriputrasya pratyakṣaṃ tat strīndriyamantarhitaṃ puruṣendriyaṃ ca prādurbhūtaṃ bodhisattvabhūtaṃ cātmānaṃ saṃdarśayati|

The difference between the Tibetan and Sanskrit and the Kumarajiva, is that the Chinese translation stages that she transforms before the assembly:

Then the assembly there all saw the daughter of the nāga king instantly transform into a man,

The former state that she transformed her gender in "śāriputrasya pratyakṣaṃ", that is, in the direct perception of Śāriputra. How? By causing her female sexual organs to vanish [strīndriyamantarhitaṃ], and producing male sexual organs in their place [puruṣendriyaṃ ca prādurbhūtaṃ].
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by rory » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:38 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:18 pm
The difference between the Tibetan and Sanskrit and the Kumarajiva, is that the Chinese translation stages that she transforms before the assembly:

Then the assembly there all saw the daughter of the nāga king instantly transform into a man,

The former state that she transformed her gender in "śāriputrasya pratyakṣaṃ", that is, in the direct perception of Śāriputra. How? By causing her female sexual organs to vanish [strīndriyamantarhitaṃ], and producing male sexual organs in their place [puruṣendriyaṃ ca prādurbhūtaṃ].
Poor Malcolm doesn't get it - the Truth of the Middle: All phenomena are simultaneously empty and all phenomena are provisionally real. So in Tiantai there is no linear time. All time is Now. This is why the Buddha can be now at Sacred Vulture Peak preaching the Dharma whilst people think he is dead...Tiantai is horizontal there is Buddhanature and Hell realms in all of us, even the Buddha. This is the the understanding of - ichinen sanzen
" the great totalistic systems of Chinese Buddhist thought, especially those of Hua-yen and T'ien-t'ai which envision the world as a cosmos in which all things, being empty of independent existence, interpenetrate and encompass one another. These systems are both ontological, in explaining all concrete phenomena (shih} as nondual with truth or principle (li) and soteriological, in showing liberation to consist of insight into this unity." Stone, Original Enlightenment pl 7
"Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58"
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by DGA » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:25 am

rory wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:44 am
When both of you get rebuked you think it's fine to pick on the Nichiren Buddhists, as you have low respect for them. You should be bowing to them!
:lol:

I'm not picking on any member of any sect, nor criticizing anyone's practice. I am asking questions, and pointing out weak arguments, and here I'm nonsectarian in my approach as you can see from my posts. You can see that I've also defended practitioners of Nichiren's Buddhism from accusations of sectarianism. I may be an ask-hole, but I'm not a sectarian ask-hole.

Why would I take the time to point out weak arguments? Because these forums are read by people who may not know much about Buddhism at all. It would be a shame if they internalized some half-baked ideas as the core of Dharma practice. I want to prevent this as best I can. Related:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27114&start=20#p418633

You have no evidence in support of your claim that I have low respect for anyone. Why would I take the time to engage with people I didn't respect? That makes no sense at all. Besides, ad hominems convince no one.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by nichiren-123 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:46 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:24 pm
maybe the cause contains within it the effect, whether you look at it linearly or any other way, dropping a hammer on your toe is still dropping a hammer on your toe, modelling it after some linear or non linear "law" may feel like an explanation, but to some perhaps not, but its still dropping a hammer on your toe
Are you dropping a hammer on your toe or are you dropping your toe on a hammer?

is that simultaneity of cause and effect?

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:12 pm

rory wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:38 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:18 pm
The difference between the Tibetan and Sanskrit and the Kumarajiva, is that the Chinese translation stages that she transforms before the assembly:

Then the assembly there all saw the daughter of the nāga king instantly transform into a man,

The former state that she transformed her gender in "śāriputrasya pratyakṣaṃ", that is, in the direct perception of Śāriputra. How? By causing her female sexual organs to vanish [strīndriyamantarhitaṃ], and producing male sexual organs in their place [puruṣendriyaṃ ca prādurbhūtaṃ].
Poor Malcolm doesn't get it
I was simple responding to your consistent misrepresentation of the tale of the nāgarāja's daughter. She did not attain buddhahood in a female form, no matter how much you insist that she did.

The rest of your post is therefore a non sequitur.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Queequeg » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:07 pm

She was demonstrating to the misogynistic crowd, exemplified by Sariputra, that a female beast could instantaneously attain Buddhahood, as quickly as she could give a jewel to the Buddha. Sariputra has a hang up about male form as the passage makes clear (five classes of beings), so in terms he can accept (upaya) she appears to take male form and become a Buddha. Keep in mind this vision is instantaneous, like a flash. This vision is like looking at the detail of a mandelbrot graph. But we all bring our luggage and this is mine.

This recurrent controversy about male female forms reminds me of the scene where Sariputra gets punked by the sprite in Vimalakirti's house.

Nothing definitive to add. Carry on.
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:30 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:07 pm
She was demonstrating to the misogynistic crowd, exemplified by Sariputra, that a female beast could instantaneously attain Buddhahood, as quickly as she could give a jewel to the Buddha.
Actually, nāgās are a complex issue. Some are animals (lowcast nāgās), but nāgārājas are more like a class of deva, but not exactly.

Nāgārāja Sāgara's daughter first transforms her gender from female and male in Shariputra's presence, then he (formerly she) goes off the the world system Vimala and attains Buddhahood. It is really quite clear in the text.

Sariputra has a hang up about male form as the passage makes clear (five classes of beings), so in terms he can accept (upaya) she appears to take male form and become a Buddha.
She does not merely appear to take on male form, she transforms her gender.

This recurrent controversy about male female forms reminds me of the scene where Sariputra gets punked by the sprite in Vimalakirti's house.

Gaṅgādevi is hardly a sprite. She is the personification of the Ganges river in female form. Her story is much more important in terms of undermining the Hinayāna assertion that only those in male forms can attain samyaksambodhi than the tale of Nāgārāja Sāgara's daughter in the Lotus.

It should go without saying, but in Vajrayāna, the principle that women can attain samyaksambodhi in female form is axiomatic and exemplified in the story of Āryatārā. She is an example of a women who vowed to attain samyaksambodhi in female form and then did so.

Image
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:12 pm
rory wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:38 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:18 pm
The difference between the Tibetan and Sanskrit and the Kumarajiva, is that the Chinese translation stages that she transforms before the assembly:

Then the assembly there all saw the daughter of the nāga king instantly transform into a man,

The former state that she transformed her gender in "śāriputrasya pratyakṣaṃ", that is, in the direct perception of Śāriputra. How? By causing her female sexual organs to vanish [strīndriyamantarhitaṃ], and producing male sexual organs in their place [puruṣendriyaṃ ca prādurbhūtaṃ].
Poor Malcolm doesn't get it
I was simple responding to your consistent misrepresentation of the tale of the nāgarāja's daughter. She did not attain buddhahood in a female form, no matter how much you insist that she did.

The rest of your post is therefore a non sequitur.
It appears that it is being claimed that Ven Zhìyǐ is the one who states that the dragon's daughter did not transform into a man, despite the text of the sūtra. The context is a quotation from a Zhìyǐ text by Paul Groner in his "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture" p 58 as you can see in Rory's signature.

So it appears to be Ven Zhìyǐ insisting that she did attain Buddhahood in female form, on sūtra precedent, but I suspect that context is being cut here.

Groner's citation is not available in the preview of the text. It is the footnote 22 on page 58. I will look through the commentary to the Lotus Sūtra to see if I can find a correspondence when I have time. I did find the quote from the 菩薩從兜術天降神母胎說廣普經 that Ven Zhìyǐ quotes concerning the women 'in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma' (魔釋梵), Scroll 4 @ [1034c20] Taishō 384:

善權義說受女人身無佛記別,魔釋梵王無真實相。汝等,欲知此四眾者受別成佛乎

But the context seems a little confused. It seems no specific claims about particularly the dragon's daughter are made. But it could tell be that a claim about all female attainment of Buddhahood is sūtrāṇi is being made. Note the 善權義 before, which means something like expedient means' meaning spoken, the rest of the passage 說受女人身無佛記別 alluding me, but having to do with it being said that there is no 'Buddha-prediction' or "Buddha-guarantee" for Buddhahood in the bodies of women, this belief presumably about to be refuted.

I can use the text "魔釋梵" to try to see which Zhìyǐ text it is from in a bit though, by searching for it.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:48 pm, edited 5 times in total.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Queequeg » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:30 pm
Nāgārāja Sāgara's daughter first transforms her gender from female and male in Shariputra's presence, then he (formerly she) goes off the the world system Vimala and attains Buddhahood. It is really quite clear in the text.
In Sariputra's perception.

In any event, we know the whole being born, attaining enlightenment and parinirvana is a show. The subtext is the form is immaterial. Pun intended. Sariputra needs to see a man become Buddha.

This recurrent controversy about male female forms reminds me of the scene where Sariputra gets punked by the sprite in Vimalakirti's house.

Gaṅgādevi is hardly a sprite. She is the personification of the Ganges river in female form. Her story is much more important in terms of undermining the Hinayāna assertion that only those in male forms can attain samyaksambodhi than the tale of Nāgārāja Sāgara's daughter in the Lotus.
Not Gangadevi.
Thereupon, a certain goddess who lived in that house, having heard this teaching of the Dharma of the great heroic bodhisattvas, and being delighted, pleased, and overjoyed, manifested herself in a material body and showered the great spiritual heroes, the bodhisattvas, and the great disciples with heavenly flowers. When the flowers fell on the bodies of the bodhisattvas, they fell off on the floor, but when they fell on the bodies of the great disciples, they stuck to them and did not fall. The great disciples shook the flowers and even tried to use their magical powers, but still the flowers would not shake off. Then, the goddess said to the venerable Sariputra, "Reverend Sariputra, why do you shake these flowers?"
http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/F ... akirti.htm
It should go without saying, but in Vajrayāna, the principle that women can attain samyaksambodhi in female form is axiomatic and exemplified in the story of Āryatārā. She is an example of a women who vowed to attain samyaksambodhi in female form and then did so.

Image
This resolves the question definitively. Yay.
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:34 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:30 pm
Nāgārāja Sāgara's daughter first transforms her gender from female and male in Shariputra's presence, then he (formerly she) goes off the the world system Vimala and attains Buddhahood. It is really quite clear in the text.
In Sariputra's perception.
Yes, in the undistorted, i.e., veridical direct perception of an āryaśrāvaka.
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Anders » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:34 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:30 pm
Nāgārāja Sāgara's daughter first transforms her gender from female and male in Shariputra's presence, then he (formerly she) goes off the the world system Vimala and attains Buddhahood. It is really quite clear in the text.
In Sariputra's perception.
Yes, in the undistorted, i.e., veridical direct perception of an āryaśrāvaka.
Shall we crack open the vimalakirti sutra for some giggles on classical Mahayana takes on the perception of arhats' perception? Specifically sariputra's perception of gender...
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:05 pm

Anders wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:59 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:34 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:18 pm


In Sariputra's perception.
Yes, in the undistorted, i.e., veridical direct perception of an āryaśrāvaka.
Shall we crack open the vimalakirti sutra for some giggles on classical Mahayana takes on the perception of arhats' perception? Specifically sariputra's perception of gender...

His direct perception of gender was just fine, even in that sūtra.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:27 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:18 pm


This resolves the question definitively. Yay.
Rory keeps claiming, erroneously, that I do not accept the idea that buddhahood can be attained in female form.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Minobu » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:27 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:18 pm


This resolves the question definitively. Yay.
Rory keeps claiming, erroneously, that I do not accept the idea that buddhahood can be attained in female form.
give it a rest.. it can...people all over the internet are wondering why you choose this course..

so my whole She turned into a different species can't be?
can anyone with a good knowledge of the translating thing tell me if it is possible in translation to see that she became a human.

it makes more sense than all this argy bargy about whether woman can be Buddhas...

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by The Cicada » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:30 pm
It should go without saying, but in Vajrayāna, the principle that women can attain samyaksambodhi in female form is axiomatic and exemplified in the story of Āryatārā. She is an example of a women who vowed to attain samyaksambodhi in female form and then did so.

Image
1) She doesn't look like any women I know or have seen outside of a Star Trek rerun. If she was born with that body, it looks like that individual still needed a particular kind of body in order to attain enlightenment. If she transformed into that form, same thing. She required a body very different from the common human form.
2) If she was able to attain perfect enlightenment, it's because she encountered the Lotus Sutra. We can get into the debate over who the validity of the Sutras, but that just leaves us claiming that the other side believes in a bunch of mythological hooey. Some might even try to embrace that stance with counter-arguments about how their tradition is more appealing for this or that reason, but it just leaves them claiming "our nonsense is cooler than theirs, and our group is likewise cooler." Taking the Sutras on their word, even the attainment of enlightenment by these figures revered in the Tibetan tradition displays the efficacy of the Lotus Sutra.
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:37 pm
You just don't get how horizontal and democratic East Asian Buddhism is. :smile:
My understanding is that Tibetan society is often decried as being very "sexist" in their treatment of women, and we see such complaints aired on this very forum. Obviously there is a gap between the equality of the beings' ability to gain enlightenment and the treatment of their worldly forms throughout Buddhist societies.
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:06 pm
It appears that it is being claimed that Ven Zhìyǐ is the one who states that the dragon's daughter did not transform into a man, despite the text of the sūtra. The context is a quotation from a Zhìyǐ text by Paul Groner in his "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture" p 58 as you can see in Rory's signature.

So it appears to be Ven Zhìyǐ insisting that she did attain Buddhahood in female form, on sūtra precedent, but I suspect that context is being cut here.

Groner's citation is not available in the preview of the text. It is the footnote 22 on page 58. I will look through the commentary to the Lotus Sūtra to see if I can find a correspondence when I have time. I did find the quote from the 菩薩從兜術天降神母胎說廣普經 that Ven Zhìyǐ quotes concerning the women 'in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma' (魔釋梵), Scroll 4 @ [1034c20] Taishō 384:

善權義說受女人身無佛記別,魔釋梵王無真實相。汝等,欲知此四眾者受別成佛乎

But the context seems a little confused. It seems no specific claims about particularly the dragon's daughter are made. But it could tell be that a claim about all female attainment of Buddhahood is sūtrāṇi is being made. Note the 善權義 before, which means something like expedient means' meaning spoken, the rest of the passage 說受女人身無佛記別 alluding me, but having to do with it being said that there is no 'Buddha-prediction' or "Buddha-guarantee" for Buddhahood in the bodies of women, this belief presumably about to be refuted.

I can use the text "魔釋梵" to try to see which Zhìyǐ text it is from in a bit though, by searching for it.
Even if the translation of the Sutra is relatively accurate, the context seems to be most important. The Dragon Girl offers the Buddha one of the precious jewels that the Nagas produce, and instantaneously is transformed into a form accepted as being higher and more superhumanly sublime than even the fair Michelangelo's David, with all requisite acts supporting the attainment, before being cisformed back into her normal form in that instant. The point seems to be that her act of devotion and faith in the Buddha causes her to manifest the equivalent of all of this in her present form, and is equivalent to it.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:28 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:08 pm
the context seems to be most important. The Dragon Girl offers the Buddha one of the precious jewels that the Nagas produce, and instantaneously is transformed into a form accepted as being higher and more superhumanly sublime than even the fair Michelangelo's David, with all requisite acts supporting the attainment, before being cisformed back into her normal form in that instant.
I don't think it says the dragon's daughter returned, regardless of if (s)he returned as a girl, or a dragon, if she did.

The sūtra takes quite a while building her up to be an extraordinary and hardly-normal 8 year old.

From the Burton Watson:

Manjushri replied, “There is the daughter of the dragon king Sagara, who has just turned eight. Her wisdom has keen roots and she is good at understanding the activities and deeds of the sense organs of living beings. She has mastered the dharanis, has been able to accept and embrace all the storehouse of profound secrets preached by the buddhas, has entered deep into meditation, thoroughly grasped the doctrines, and in the space of an instant conceived the desire for enlightenment and reached the level of no regression. Her eloquence knows no hindrance, and she thinks of living beings with compassion as though they were her own children. She is fully endowed with blessings, and when it comes to conceiving in mind and expounding by mouth, she is subtle, wonderful, comprehensive, and great. Kind, compassionate, benevolent, yielding, she is gentle and refined in will, and has ably attained enlightenment.”

Bodhisattva Wisdom Accumulated said, “When I observe Shakyamuni Thus Come One, I see that for immeasurable kalpas he carried out harsh and difficult practices, accumulating merit, piling up virtue, seeking the way of the bodhisattva without ever resting. I observe that throughout the major world system, there is not a single spot tiny as a mustard seed where this bodhisattva failed to sacrifice body and life for the sake of living beings. Only after he had done that was he able to complete the way of enlightenment. I cannot believe that this girl in the space of an instant could actually achieve correct enlightenment.”


Implying that while Śākyamuni Tathāgata has for immeasurable kalpas carried out harsh and difficult practices, accumulating merit, piling up virtue, seeking the way of the bodhisattva without ever resting, while she has perhaps not?

Why can't Mañjuśrī bodhisattva see that she is a non-retrograding bodhisattva? That is a question IMO. Is she hiding it from him? How can she do such a thing?
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:32 am

For that matter, why can't Ven Śāriputra see the dragon's daughter's attainment before her demonstration with his vision? With his ṛddhi she instructs him to use in the Kumārajīva recension?
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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liuzg150181
Posts: 199
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by liuzg150181 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:35 am

The Cicada wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:08 pm
1) She doesn't look like any women I know or have seen outside of a Star Trek rerun. If she was born with that body, it looks like that individual still needed a particular kind of body in order to attain enlightenment. If she transformed into that form, same thing. She required a body very different from the common human form.
Enlightenment for all,regardless of skin color :tongue: :
Image
The Cicada wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:08 pm
My understanding is that Tibetan society is often decried as being very "sexist" in their treatment of women, and we see such complaints aired on this very forum. Obviously there is a gap between the equality of the beings' ability to gain enlightenment and the treatment of their worldly forms throughout Buddhist societies.
Ok........same goes to Japan where Nichiren Buddhism is from?
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/ ... mic-forum/
And speaking of which:
viewtopic.php?f=115&p=422279#p422279

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