Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

markatex
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Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by markatex » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:05 am

I'd like to discuss this letter and get other people's take on it. It's long been a favorite of mine, and I reread it this evening for the first time in a while. In it, Nichiren says explicitly that the Lotus Sutra is the Original Buddha, and that all phenomena are manifestations of the Lotus Sutra. So in a sense, we are the Original Buddha. I know there's been a debate going on here about hongaku, or original enlightenment thought, and perhaps this letter dances close to that, but even here Nichiren doesn't go so far as to say that we are Buddhas just as we are.

Anyway, I just wanted to get others' thoughts.

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Queequeg » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:03 pm

Given the significant ideas in this gosho, we should probably address the questions about its authenticity first.

So first, why the controversy? As Mark pointed out, it is because of this:

"Even the two Buddhas, Sakyamuni and Many Treasures, are Buddhas in terms of function (yu 用). It is Myoho-renge-kyo which is the original Buddha... the "Tathagata's secret" is the three bodies in terms of essence (tai 体) and the original Buddha (honbutsu 本佛), while his "supernatural powers" are the three bodies in terms of function and the trace Buddha (shakumon 迹門). The ordinary person is the three bodies in terms of essence and the original Buddha, while the Buddha is the three bodies in terms of function and the trace Buddha. It is thought that Sakyamuni Buddha possessed the three virtues of sovereign, teacher, and parent for the sake of us, ordinary persons; however, this is not so. On the contrary, it is the ordinary person who endows the Buddha with the three virtues."
STN 1:724, translated by Sueki Fumihiko

There is a teaching that emerged from within Medieval Tendai called Hongaku, or "Original Enlightenment". In some forms, this doctrine amounts to a literal reading of the slogan, "Nothing to attain" and is understood to absolutely affirm samsara. In the worst case, you can be a completely immoral person because samsara = nirvana, and immorality is the same as the perfection of Buddhahood.

I don't know what to call that teaching, but its not Buddhism.

In any event, some believe that this gosho teaches hongaku and on that basis declares it to be a forgery.

Sueki Fumihiko discusses the controversy concerning the authenticity of this gosho and concludes that what is stated here does not deviate from Nichiren's known authentic writings and so at best can only say that the evidence is inconclusive. See "Nichiren's Problematic Works"

Let's unpack this passage a little bit.

The terms "essence" and "function" have to be understood in the context of Tientai thought. In this context, "Essence" refers to the Cause of Enlightenment, and "Function" to the "Effect", ie. Buddhahood. Specifically, Essence refers to the Direct Cause of Buddhahood, which is Universal Buddhanature. Function refers to the Buddha who has attained Buddhahood and which functions with regard to the unenlightened being as the Perfect Cause of Buddhahood - the Buddha who is constantly appearing to us and leading us to Enlightenment. Along with the practices we undertake, identified as the Conditional Cause of Buddhahood, these three make up the Three Causes of Buddhahood.

Here we need to read between the lines a little. Buddha has function only in relation to unenlightened beings. Thus the determining factor of whether there is a function is actually the entity in relation to which there is a function. If there are no unenlightened beings, there is no function of Buddha, and actually, no Buddha to speak of (or anything for that matter). As such, we see that the Buddha is actually a function of the unenlightened being.

I don't know why this concept is so controversial except to opine that the people who object to this characterization are not really familiar with the background context of Nichiren's teachings.

The point is, the drama of the struggle for enlightenment is not some distant endeavor, its here and now, in the moment to moment experience we are participating in now.

That statement needs some context. It would seem like an obvious statement. However, Buddhism at Nichiren's time had become marked with ethereal occupations, whether aspiration for rebirth in a pure land or meditative absorptions in mundane spells or the Sambhoga and Dharma Kayas to the exclusion of the toil in the Saha world. It actually needed to be said - "Hey. Look here. Snap out of it." The proverbial, return back from the looking glass. In Lotus Tradition language - "discarding the provisional to reveal the real."
This [Lotus] sutra deals with the original mind [of enlightenment] in the waking state. But because living beings are accustomed to thinking in the mental terms appropriate to a dream state, it borrows the language of the dream state in order to teach the waking state of the original mind. However, though the language is that employed in a dream state, the intention behind it is to give instruction in the waking state of the original mind. This is the aim of both the text of the Lotus Sutra itself and of the commentaries on it. If one does not clearly understand this, one will invariably misunderstand the wording of both the sutra and its commentaries.
-The Unanimous Declaration by the Buddhas

The relation between essence and function can also be found addressed in Zhiyi's discussion of the symbolic Lotus and the real Lotus.

http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/en/files/201 ... -Sutra.pdf

Point is, if someone is telling you this is an inauthentic gosho, one will instead find that when they look at the context of Tientai teachings, its not a departure.
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Minobu » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:32 pm

isn't original enlightenment a sort of immentalism / pantheism .

it drove me nuts to think we were bending towards a creationist similarity.Even creationism without the Godhead , drove me bonkers. for it I thought it to be anti Buddhist thought.

but low and behold i came to the conclusion that there is an "Original Enlightenment " from which all things appear . The sunyata view takes away the Godhead and renders a Mystic Law which all things are in essence of and which allows for an infinite possibilities .

we speak of mind , so this essence can viewed as an infinite awareness of possibilities.




still bonkers after all this time. :rolling:
d

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by narhwal90 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:49 pm

There were diverse opinions about hongaku within Tendai well before Nichiren and after. I'm inclined to favor the gosho as it relates to ichinen sanzen, though not so much the NSA/SGI interpretations of Nichiren as Jogyo or the Latter-Day Buddha.

Thats an interesting article Q, I never much cared for the kaidan proposition- its always connoted empire-building to me, which seems counter to Nichiren's focus.

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Queequeg » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:21 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:49 pm
Thats an interesting article Q, I never much cared for the kaidan proposition- its always connoted empire-building to me, which seems counter to Nichiren's focus.
I think that is a view of the Kaidan from the perspective of civil society.

My understanding of it is related to the Kaidan erected on Mt. Hiei for the the sudden and immediate precepts, which is in turn related to the Kaidan of the Nara sects. The Kaidan is national to the extent that only the Emperor could authorize kaidan, and this was because Buddhism was, theoretically at least, in the Nara and Heian periods, subordinate to the state.

In one sense, Nichiren is asserting the primacy of Dharma. This is not particularly controversial in light of Prince Shotoku's constitution which places the Three Jewels of Buddhism at the foundation of the the state. It is controversial to the extent that Nichiren advocated one of several interpretations of Dharma that were prevalent at the time. Theoretically speaking, too, this is not controversial - from the Buddhist perspective, Buddha Dharma is more fundamental than any secular dharma.

And this gets back to what the Kaidan actually is.

The Kaidan is the place where we accept the Diamond Chalice Precept, ie. the Daimoku. If such a Kaidan is established by the state, then the State is accepting the Diamond Chalice Precept, and the entire realm is, symbolically at least, entered into the Sublime Dharma. This is deeply significant from some perspectives.

The Kaidan is off topic in this thread, though, so I'll leave it there.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by ItsRaining » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:20 am

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:03 pm
Given the significant ideas in this gosho, we should probably address the questions about its authenticity first.

So first, why the controversy? As Mark pointed out, it is because of this:

"Even the two Buddhas, Sakyamuni and Many Treasures, are Buddhas in terms of function (yu 用). It is Myoho-renge-kyo which is the original Buddha... the "Tathagata's secret" is the three bodies in terms of essence (tai 体) and the original Buddha (honbutsu 本佛), while his "supernatural powers" are the three bodies in terms of function and the trace Buddha (shakumon 迹門). The ordinary person is the three bodies in terms of essence and the original Buddha, while the Buddha is the three bodies in terms of function and the trace Buddha. It is thought that Sakyamuni Buddha possessed the three virtues of sovereign, teacher, and parent for the sake of us, ordinary persons; however, this is not so. On the contrary, it is the ordinary person who endows the Buddha with the three virtues."
STN 1:724, translated by Sueki Fumihiko

There is a teaching that emerged from within Medieval Tendai called Hongaku, or "Original Enlightenment". In some forms, this doctrine amounts to a literal reading of the slogan, "Nothing to attain" and is understood to absolutely affirm samsara. In the worst case, you can be a completely immoral person because samsara = nirvana, and immorality is the same as the perfection of Buddhahood.

I don't know what to call that teaching, but its not Buddhism.

In any event, some believe that this gosho teaches hongaku and on that basis declares it to be a forgery.

Sueki Fumihiko discusses the controversy concerning the authenticity of this gosho and concludes that what is stated here does not deviate from Nichiren's known authentic writings and so at best can only say that the evidence is inconclusive. See "Nichiren's Problematic Works"

Let's unpack this passage a little bit.

The terms "essence" and "function" have to be understood in the context of Tientai thought. In this context, "Essence" refers to the Cause of Enlightenment, and "Function" to the "Effect", ie. Buddhahood. Specifically, Essence refers to the Direct Cause of Buddhahood, which is Universal Buddhanature. Function refers to the Buddha who has attained Buddhahood and which functions with regard to the unenlightened being as the Perfect Cause of Buddhahood - the Buddha who is constantly appearing to us and leading us to Enlightenment. Along with the practices we undertake, identified as the Conditional Cause of Buddhahood, these three make up the Three Causes of Buddhahood.

Here we need to read between the lines a little. Buddha has function only in relation to unenlightened beings. Thus the determining factor of whether there is a function is actually the entity in relation to which there is a function. If there are no unenlightened beings, there is no function of Buddha, and actually, no Buddha to speak of (or anything for that matter). As such, we see that the Buddha is actually a function of the unenlightened being.

I don't know why this concept is so controversial except to opine that the people who object to this characterization are not really familiar with the background context of Nichiren's teachings.

The point is, the drama of the struggle for enlightenment is not some distant endeavor, its here and now, in the moment to moment experience we are participating in now.

That statement needs some context. It would seem like an obvious statement. However, Buddhism at Nichiren's time had become marked with ethereal occupations, whether aspiration for rebirth in a pure land or meditative absorptions in mundane spells or the Sambhoga and Dharma Kayas to the exclusion of the toil in the Saha world. It actually needed to be said - "Hey. Look here. Snap out of it." The proverbial, return back from the looking glass. In Lotus Tradition language - "discarding the provisional to reveal the real."
This [Lotus] sutra deals with the original mind [of enlightenment] in the waking state. But because living beings are accustomed to thinking in the mental terms appropriate to a dream state, it borrows the language of the dream state in order to teach the waking state of the original mind. However, though the language is that employed in a dream state, the intention behind it is to give instruction in the waking state of the original mind. This is the aim of both the text of the Lotus Sutra itself and of the commentaries on it. If one does not clearly understand this, one will invariably misunderstand the wording of both the sutra and its commentaries.
-The Unanimous Declaration by the Buddhas

The relation between essence and function can also be found addressed in Zhiyi's discussion of the symbolic Lotus and the real Lotus.

http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/en/files/201 ... -Sutra.pdf

Point is, if someone is telling you this is an inauthentic gosho, one will instead find that when they look at the context of Tientai teachings, its not a departure.
Is Hongaky different to the regular Original Awakening doctrine from texts like the Awakening of Faith?

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Queequeg » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:53 pm

ItsRaining wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:20 am
Is Hongaky different to the regular Original Awakening doctrine from texts like the Awakening of Faith?
I believe it is related if not the same. IIRC there is a distinction in the way hongaku is understood in Tientai than in Awakening of Faith.
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Minobu » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:49 pm

I think it was the Bear's voice.
He heard deep inside him.
Growling low, in dark secret places.

The Old One's say when a man and an animal spill each other's' blood, they become One.
(taken from movie Legends of the Fall )

so it is the same with our relationship with Gohonzon.


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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:46 pm

Queequeg wrote:I don't know what to call that teaching....
As a tendency within religions, it’s called ‘antinomianism’. Its definition, in the context of Christianity, is
Definition of antinomian. 1 : one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation. 2 : one who rejects a socially established morality.
The parallels are pretty clear. It’s also interesting that the same kinds of tendencies can occur in totally different religious cultures.
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Queequeg » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:42 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:46 pm
Queequeg wrote:I don't know what to call that teaching....
As a tendency within religions, it’s called ‘antinomianism’. Its definition, in the context of Christianity, is
Definition of antinomian. 1 : one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation. 2 : one who rejects a socially established morality.
The parallels are pretty clear. It’s also interesting that the same kinds of tendencies can occur in totally different religious cultures.
Ah, I should have known that.

As long as there are higher dharmas and human beings laboring within them, I suppose there will always be clever Priest/Rabbi/Scholar/Monk who will find an exception clause to the discipline.
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:29 am

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:03 pm
[...]
Even the two Buddhas, Sakyamuni and Many Treasures, are Buddhas in terms of function (yu 用). It is Myoho-renge-kyo which is the original Buddha... the "Tathagata's secret" is the three bodies in terms of essence (tai 体) and the original Buddha (honbutsu 本佛)
[...]

STN 1:724, translated by Sueki Fumihiko
二卽體用。不二卽用體。
Two is the essence's function. Not two is the function's essence.
-Ven Jízàng


Substitute "two" here for "any number". A parallel with the "divided/division/emanation bodies" vs "Śākyamuni Buddha" (彼佛分身諸佛一一在於十方世界說法, 0032c22) from back in this thread?
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by markatex » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:25 am

Here is the Nichiren Shu translation (from The Writings of Nichiren Shonin Vol. 4: Faith and Practice) of the passage QQ quoted from. It's wordier and the hongaku angle isn't as pronounced:

"Therefore, the two Buddhas, Sakyamuni and Many Treasures, are functions of the substance, that is the five characters of myo, ho, ren, ge, and kyo. In other words, the Lotus Sutra is the Original Buddha. "The Life Span of the Buddha" chapter of the Lotus Sutra mentions the Buddha's "hidden core and divine powers." The hidden core of the World Honored One refers to the substance of the Original Buddha possessing the threefold body. The divine powers mean the three bodies of manifested Buddhas as functions of the Original Buddha (substance). Also, we unenlightened people can fundamentally be the Original Buddha with three bodies of the substance, and the Buddha's three bodies are functions and manifestations of the Original Buddha. If this is true, although we believed that Sakyamuni Buddha provided the three virtues of master, teacher, and parent to us, instead it was we unenlightened people who provide three virtues to the Buddha."

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by markatex » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:33 am

I was vaguely aware that some consider it an inauthentic writing, but Nichiren Shu evidently considers it to be authentic. On re-reading it, especially the NOPPA translation, it seems to be saying something very different from the hongaku "we're all Buddhas just as we are" line.

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by narhwal90 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:42 pm

Thats an interesting quote from the Shu interpretation; we unenlightened beings "can". Is that something to be reconciled with the 10 Worlds mutual possession or perhaps the wording of the translation has unintended connotations?

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:29 pm

markatex wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:33 am
I was vaguely aware that some consider it an inauthentic writing, but Nichiren Shu evidently considers it to be authentic. On re-reading it, especially the NOPPA translation, it seems to be saying something very different from the hongaku "we're all Buddhas just as we are" line.
I have reservations about the NOPPA translation - that said, I have reservations about all English translations of Nichiren's writings. The NOPPA approach is to provide a readable and accessible translation for non-specialists. They translate with an emphasis on meaning rather than getting the translation technically right. It is also done piecemeal by different translators. Other than the editors who compile the translations, it is not clear how much collaboration there is among translators to achieve consistency.

I've compared certain passages in the NOPPA translations to the Japanese originals. I have seen instances where the particular details of an argument are rearranged to make the conclusion more obvious or accessible, ostensibly, in order to convey what Nichiren meant, or is believed to have meant. The problem with that is this can at times disregard the argument structure. This is problematic because often the structure of the argument, awkward as it may be, is a reflection of the broader Lotus tradition as well as Nichiren's other writings. By obscuring the actual arguments, it makes it more difficult to connect the various teachings with each other into a cohesive knowledge. Unfortunately, I can't recall specifics - there might have been some in the translation of Kanjin no Honzon sho and I may have documented some of these issues in the Kanjin no Honzon study thread we had here a while back. I don't mean to single out the NOPPA translations on this. I like the translations in certain respects, especially the background notes which tell us the details of the original documents - if they exist, where they are stored, etc. Furthermore, other translators take similar liberties at times, too. I've spoken to quite a few people who can read the original Japanese and its common to grouse about instances of bad translation. There are quite a few of us who have aspirations to work on translations, or at least fix existing translations, or alternatively, preparing this field of merit so that maybe Kumarajiva will emerge among us again and undertake the task.

Substantively, I recommend the Swanson article I linked above. I think it helps to illustrate the essence/function relation as explained by Tendai Daishi (Zhiyi).
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Minobu » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:30 pm

markatex wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:33 am
I was vaguely aware that some consider it an inauthentic writing, but Nichiren Shu evidently considers it to be authentic. On re-reading it, especially the NOPPA translation, it seems to be saying something very different from the hongaku "we're all Buddhas just as we are" line.
see this is a problem. A HUGE ONE...

when you read an inauthentic piece , or a misguided translation , or worse yet both at the same time ....the material goes into one's brain...if it is filth it does it's job like a demon and messes up any chance of correct view at the time of reading.

I read your previous post but something was not allowing me to concentrate....is this the work of my sincere practice...i kept saying i will reread this after i finish the thread...then you post the above.

these are very complicated terms and paradigms and views...they need absolute accuracy in the teaching of them...

It's like sunyata...it took 5 years for me to understand what is considered a very simple view....and yet people here still type stuff that just goes completely against the grain of the teaching..."all things are empty of inherent existence ".

there is a post by Grigoris where he asks me is Dharmakaya or Tathagatagarbha >, which he said some think the same thing..he asks if it is inherent...

well if Lord Nagarjuna says all things are absent of inherency i'm sure He considered Dharmakaya in that EDICT> just because we want to view things in the dream state instead of the waking state does not mean we can assume Dharmakaya is inherent...which brings me to a new thread.

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:41 pm

MOD NOTE: SOME OFF TOPIC DISCUSSION ABOUT SGI SPLIT OFF TO THE SGI DISCUSSION FORUM.
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-Henry Miller

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Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:48 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:30 pm
markatex wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:33 am
I was vaguely aware that some consider it an inauthentic writing, but Nichiren Shu evidently considers it to be authentic. On re-reading it, especially the NOPPA translation, it seems to be saying something very different from the hongaku "we're all Buddhas just as we are" line.
see this is a problem. A HUGE ONE...

when you read an inauthentic piece , or a misguided translation , or worse yet both at the same time ....the material goes into one's brain...if it is filth it does it's job like a demon and messes up any chance of correct view at the time of reading.

I read your previous post but something was not allowing me to concentrate....is this the work of my sincere practice...i kept saying i will reread this after i finish the thread...then you post the above.

these are very complicated terms and paradigms and views...they need absolute accuracy in the teaching of them...

It's like sunyata...it took 5 years for me to understand what is considered a very simple view....and yet people here still type stuff that just goes completely against the grain of the teaching..."all things are empty of inherent existence ".

there is a post by Grigoris where he asks me is Dharmakaya or Tathagatagarbha >, which he said some think the same thing..he asks if it is inherent...

well if Lord Nagarjuna says all things are absent of inherency i'm sure He considered Dharmakaya in that EDICT> just because we want to view things in the dream state instead of the waking state does not mean we can assume Dharmakaya is inherent...which brings me to a new thread.
Well, all that is well and good, and I don't think there is a reasonable person who would disagree with those overall sentiments.

What about this particular gosho do you have a problem with?
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Minobu » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:58 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:48 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:30 pm
markatex wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:33 am
I was vaguely aware that some consider it an inauthentic writing, but Nichiren Shu evidently considers it to be authentic. On re-reading it, especially the NOPPA translation, it seems to be saying something very different from the hongaku "we're all Buddhas just as we are" line.
see this is a problem. A HUGE ONE...

when you read an inauthentic piece , or a misguided translation , or worse yet both at the same time ....the material goes into one's brain...if it is filth it does it's job like a demon and messes up any chance of correct view at the time of reading.

I read your previous post but something was not allowing me to concentrate....is this the work of my sincere practice...i kept saying i will reread this after i finish the thread...then you post the above.

these are very complicated terms and paradigms and views...they need absolute accuracy in the teaching of them...

It's like sunyata...it took 5 years for me to understand what is considered a very simple view....and yet people here still type stuff that just goes completely against the grain of the teaching..."all things are empty of inherent existence ".

there is a post by Grigoris where he asks me is Dharmakaya or Tathagatagarbha >, which he said some think the same thing..he asks if it is inherent...

well if Lord Nagarjuna says all things are absent of inherency i'm sure He considered Dharmakaya in that EDICT> just because we want to view things in the dream state instead of the waking state does not mean we can assume Dharmakaya is inherent...which brings me to a new thread.
Well, all that is well and good, and I don't think there is a reasonable person who would disagree with those overall sentiments.

What about this particular gosho do you have a problem with?
well like i said...it drives me bonkers...i am trying to come to terms with it and understand it...as you know well..

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Queequeg
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:24 pm

LOL. IIRC, in the Vimalakirti sutra, the proper approach to understanding sunyata is a matter of getting used to it.
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