Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

[DGA]

I'm starting a discussion on a topic that came up in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=102&p=433207#p433178

My understanding has been that, according to Nichiren's Buddhism, the syllables of NMRK contain the entirety of the Lotus Sutra, which itself contains or embodies (what's the best verb there?) the totality of the authoritative Dharma teaching. Which is to say that I had thought chanting NMRK would be the definitive Buddhist path for a practitioner of Nichiren's Buddhism.

But now I learn this is likely wrong. Is it? If so, where is the error?

[Queequeg]

I'm starting a discussion on a topic that came up in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=102&p=433207#p433178

My understanding has been that, according to Nichiren's Buddhism, the syllables of NMRK contain the entirety of the Lotus Sutra, which itself contains or embodies (what's the best verb there?) the totality of the authoritative Dharma teaching. Which is to say that I had thought chanting NMRK would be the definitive Buddhist path for a practitioner of Nichiren's Buddhism.

But now I learn this is likely wrong. Is it? If so, where is the error?

You should ask Malcolm. He professes to know.

[markatex]

As far as I know, it is, but I haven’t followed the thread in question.

[Minobu]

One needs to take in account the time and the capacity of the people.
Our egos think there are some really highly developed people on the planet, but the truth is basically we all are the same batch due to our development . One may attest to higher practices and have followers and such who think them to be Buddhas or close to it.

Sorry , not so at this juncture on the planet. The difference between a downs syndrome being on earth presently and some incredibly awarded Buddhist teacher/guru/teacher is very slim. They both are of the same batch of sentients caught in samsara at this juncture in time.

they both share in the common Karma of being of this batch and at of this level on the path to becoming a Buddha

So no matter what your ego claims to be and no matter how genius you might think you or that person is ...it's not so far from the downs syndrome person.
i use downs syndrome person in the same context as some person in a coma or some vegetable person on life support to express the fact all of them are of the same batch and all of them are about as close to Buddhahood as one another. they all are very close in development and status. I actually love downs syndrome people and am not slighting them in any way...The capacity for love in these people is off the scale...i always end up treating them as equals and they know that of me...the point i'm making is people think that so and so is like an enlightened being on earth...or Some BaBa is the be all and end all....

So you practice Nam MyoHo RenGe Kyo and voila you are now hanging out with Buddhas and Their Retinue .

thats the practice at this juncture and time ...for this batch of sentients.

Other Dharmas are only really effective if you have a direct relationship with Buddha....Like hanging with His Nirmanakaya for Kalpas..

At this juncture you can pretend to be doing that, mimic the practices that they did with Buddha , but it's not the time and it has no effect for Nirmanaya Kaya Buddha has long gone thousands of years ago ....His students have ripened ..and He left this simple practice for Us Batch...

I got banned once for saying the concept of practice a lifetime of certain dharmas and when you die you shall attain enlightenment or go to pure land was a con...i did not mean that the practices were a con...or that the people teaching them are con persons..and I should never have used the word con....so the ban was righteous and i learned something.

I just see from the angle of Lotus buddhism that those practices will not bear fruit at this time and place with the batch of people we all are connected to ....
time and capacity of the people...

simple way to hang with Buddhas in this degenerative Time...become as malcolm refers to us..A Nichirenista !

[Carlita]

I'm starting a discussion on a topic that came up in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=102&p=433207#p433178

My understanding has been that, according to Nichiren's Buddhism, the syllables of NMRK contain the entirety of the Lotus Sutra, which itself contains or embodies (what's the best verb there?) the totality of the authoritative Dharma teaching. Which is to say that I had thought chanting NMRK would be the definitive Buddhist path for a practitioner of Nichiren's Buddhism.

But now I learn this is likely wrong. Is it? If so, where is the error?

Diamoku (NMRK) does contain in its name and practice The Lotus Sutra. The Lotus according to Nichiren embodies in summary all the Pali canon in full. They reflect each other. The authority comes from The Buddha himself. Nichiren is only a votary. He says if you are his disciples (follow his tradition of chanting Diamoku) you will obtain Buddhahold.

Its personal preference really. Im learning the Tibetan tradition which is different than Nichiren. Id like to know more theravada. I guess it depends on how you see The Buddha, your preference in meditation, and what books you look to sutras? Suttas? Both?

The Buddha said investigate and really follow The basics. Hopefully with a teacher but not many of us have that advantage.

[DGA]

One needs to take in account the time and the capacity of the people.
Our egos think there are some really highly developed people on the planet, but the truth is basically we all are the same batch due to our development . One may attest to higher practices and have followers and such who think them to be Buddhas or close to it.

Sorry , not so at this juncture on the planet. The difference between a downs syndrome being on earth presently and some incredibly awarded Buddhist teacher/guru/teacher is very slim. They both are of the same batch of sentients caught in samsara at this juncture in time.

they both share in the common Karma of being of this batch and at of this level on the path to becoming a Buddha

So no matter what your ego claims to be and no matter how genius you might think you or that person is ...it's not so far from the downs syndrome person.
i use downs syndrome person in the same context as some person in a coma or some vegetable person on life support to express the fact all of them are of the same batch and all of them are about as close to Buddhahood as one another. they all are very close in development and status. I actually love downs syndrome people and am not slighting them in any way...The capacity for love in these people is off the scale...i always end up treating them as equals and they know that of me...the point i'm making is people think that so and so is like an enlightened being on earth...or Some BaBa is the be all and end all....

So you practice Nam MyoHo RenGe Kyo and voila you are now hanging out with Buddhas and Their Retinue .

thats the practice at this juncture and time ...for this batch of sentients.

Other Dharmas are only really effective if you have a direct relationship with Buddha....Like hanging with His Nirmanakaya for Kalpas..

At this juncture you can pretend to be doing that, mimic the practices that they did with Buddha , but it's not the time and it has no effect for Nirmanaya Kaya Buddha has long gone thousands of years ago ....His students have ripened ..and He left this simple practice for Us Batch...

I got banned once for saying the concept of practice a lifetime of certain dharmas and when you die you shall attain enlightenment or go to pure land was a con...i did not mean that the practices were a con...or that the people teaching them are con persons..and I should never have used the word con....so the ban was righteous and i learned something.

I just see from the angle of Lotus buddhism that those practices will not bear fruit at this time and place with the batch of people we all are connected to ....
time and capacity of the people...

simple way to hang with Buddhas in this degenerative Time...become as malcolm refers to us..A Nichirenista !

Ok. If someone were to ask you, Is NMRK the definitive practice or path for Nichiren Buddhists, would you answer yes or no?

[narhwal90]

I would answer "yes", daimoku is the definitive practice.. but is that really what the question is about? A basic search about Nichiren practice makes that clear quickly,

As to the entire sutra being contained in the title, such that daimoku is the equivalent to reciting the sutra, that is more open to varying interpretation & belief. Personally I find reading the Lotus sutra interesting and informative- and other sutras as well- so I read them and chant daimoku too.

[DGA]

As far as I know, it is, but I haven’t followed the thread in question.

I would answer "yes", daimoku is the definitive practice.. but is that really what the question is about? A basic search about Nichiren practice makes that clear quickly

That was my understanding, too. I was surprised to see that this observation was rejected in another thread, so I thought I'd crowdsource some wisdom on it.

Thanks.

[Minobu]

One needs to take in account the time and the capacity of the people.
Our egos think there are some really highly developed people on the planet, but the truth is basically we all are the same batch due to our development . One may attest to higher practices and have followers and such who think them to be Buddhas or close to it.

Sorry , not so at this juncture on the planet. The difference between a downs syndrome being on earth presently and some incredibly awarded Buddhist teacher/guru/teacher is very slim. They both are of the same batch of sentients caught in samsara at this juncture in time.

they both share in the common Karma of being of this batch and at of this level on the path to becoming a Buddha

So no matter what your ego claims to be and no matter how genius you might think you or that person is ...it's not so far from the downs syndrome person.
i use downs syndrome person in the same context as some person in a coma or some vegetable person on life support to express the fact all of them are of the same batch and all of them are about as close to Buddhahood as one another. they all are very close in development and status. I actually love downs syndrome people and am not slighting them in any way...The capacity for love in these people is off the scale...i always end up treating them as equals and they know that of me...the point i'm making is people think that so and so is like an enlightened being on earth...or Some BaBa is the be all and end all....

So you practice Nam MyoHo RenGe Kyo and voila you are now hanging out with Buddhas and Their Retinue .

thats the practice at this juncture and time ...for this batch of sentients.

Other Dharmas are only really effective if you have a direct relationship with Buddha....Like hanging with His Nirmanakaya for Kalpas..

At this juncture you can pretend to be doing that, mimic the practices that they did with Buddha , but it's not the time and it has no effect for Nirmanaya Kaya Buddha has long gone thousands of years ago ....His students have ripened ..and He left this simple practice for Us Batch...

I got banned once for saying the concept of practice a lifetime of certain dharmas and when you die you shall attain enlightenment or go to pure land was a con...i did not mean that the practices were a con...or that the people teaching them are con persons..and I should never have used the word con....so the ban was righteous and i learned something.

I just see from the angle of Lotus buddhism that those practices will not bear fruit at this time and place with the batch of people we all are connected to ....
time and capacity of the people...

simple way to hang with Buddhas in this degenerative Time...become as malcolm refers to us..A Nichirenista !

Ok. If someone were to ask you, Is NMRK the definitive practice or path for Nichiren Buddhists, would you answer yes or no?

I have tried to make it clear that according to all the stuff i have exposed myself to, from TM meditation to a gazillion Tibetan initiations, to Holy Alchemy and a study of the Kabbalah and a slight brief look at new age stuff..that I know that Lotus Buddhism as "Q" has deciphered it's legacy and meaning is the definitive practice in this age where the capacity of the people and the degenerative time when as predicted all of Lord Sakyamuni's teachings lose their power to lead people to Buddhahood.

There are a lot of unsure Buddhists who have practiced various forms of Buddhism for years..some have given up all hope of anything happening in this life and it's a wait till you die scenario. This is never the case in Nichiren Shonin's practice.. check bottom of post (1)

Life changes, you get to see your karma in action and suffer it through and enjoy it through...your life ends up like it is on roids. Reality is thrust in your face...it's all very personal and difficult to stick to for it really gets hairy at times...but it is all you..so i have chosen to ride the storm with Gohonzon .

You get to live your life with Buddha and Buddha's retinue . for real...it becomes obvious.


(1) there are a few letters to desperate practitioners in the olden days of Samurai class and peasantry where Nichiren shonin wrote to people and promised that they would end up in the Pure Land of Eagle Peak. which is up to interpretation...for me it's living in Nirvana in Samsara ...so maybe it's a promise to one of their future lives where they shall live in Nirvana in Samsara ..for the two are two sides of the same coin at once. as i understand it.

[Queequeg]

As far as I know, it is, but I haven’t followed the thread in question.

I would answer "yes", daimoku is the definitive practice.. but is that really what the question is about? A basic search about Nichiren practice makes that clear quickly

That was my understanding, too. I was surprised to see that this observation was rejected in another thread, so I thought I'd crowdsource some wisdom on it.

Thanks.

Here's the exchange from the other thread:

Take Nichiren's Buddhism, I think his claim that chanting NMRK is the definitive Buddhist path is rubbish.

Well, you misunderstand it. That interpretation of Nichiren is not correct. But that's not the point.

No I don't, and it is-- heard it hundreds of times from Nichirenistas. But as you say, it is not the point.

Malcolm is not one to have the patience to parse things out when he has a point he wants to make. Instead of asking how I thought he had it wrong, he did the above.

"chanting NMRK" is not the definitive path.

NMRK is the definitive path. It may be expressed differently in other times and places. At this time an place, the definitive path is expressed as NMRK.

Chanting NMRK is the Essential Practice. But the practice is not limited to that, and for Buddhahood, the practice of NMRK must be more robust.

[dude]

I'll dispense with the turf wars and cut to the original question from DGA.
The answer is yes.
Let's look at what the Daishonin himself had to say about this :


If you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured since time without beginning and to attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment in this lifetime, you must perceive the mystic truth that is originally inherent in all living beings. This truth is Myoho-renge-kyo. Chanting Myoho-renge-kyo will therefore enable you to grasp the mystic truth innate in all life.
......If you chant {Nam ] Myoho-renge-kyo with deep faith in this principle, you are certain to attain Buddhahood in this lifetime.

[Yavana]

I'll dispense with the turf wars and cut to the original question from DGA.

Not just as simple as wearing your orange in this neighborhood, is it?

[Queequeg]

I'll dispense with the turf wars and cut to the original question from DGA.
The answer is yes.
Let's look at what the Daishonin himself had to say about this :


If you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured since time without beginning and to attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment in this lifetime, you must perceive the mystic truth that is originally inherent in all living beings. This truth is Myoho-renge-kyo. Chanting Myoho-renge-kyo will therefore enable you to grasp the mystic truth innate in all life.
......If you chant {Nam ] Myoho-renge-kyo with deep faith in this principle, you are certain to attain Buddhahood in this lifetime.

1. That letter is of uncertain authenticity. I tend to accept it. Some don't.

2. As you notice from the passage you quoted, the prerequisite for enlightenment is to perceive the sublime reality. That's Mahayana. What is unique is the identification of this sublime reality exclusively with MRK. The means of doing so is taught to be chanting NMRK. That however is not everything.

Nichiren also referred to Reading with the Body, seeking the Dharma even at the cost of your life, Essential and Comprehensive practices, as well as undertaking IchinenSanzen meditation.

The Daimoku is indeed an amulet tied around the neck of the ordinary person in the Degenerate Age. Its the jewel in the robe. Practice with it can be simple, but if you can undertake more, it behooves you to do so.

[Bristollad]

I'll dispense with the turf wars and cut to the original question from DGA.
The answer is yes.
Let's look at what the Daishonin himself had to say about this :


If you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured since time without beginning and to attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment in this lifetime, you must perceive the mystic truth that is originally inherent in all living beings. This truth is Myoho-renge-kyo. Chanting Myoho-renge-kyo will therefore enable you to grasp the mystic truth innate in all life.
......If you chant {Nam ] Myoho-renge-kyo with deep faith in this principle, you are certain to attain Buddhahood in this lifetime.

1. That letter is of uncertain authenticity. I tend to accept it. Some don't.

2. As you notice from the passage you quoted, the prerequisite for enlightenment is to perceive the sublime reality. That's Mahayana. What is unique is the identification of this sublime reality exclusively with MRK. The means of doing so is taught to be chanting NMRK. That however is not everything.

Nichiren also referred to Reading with the Body, seeking the Dharma even at the cost of your life, Essential and Comprehensive practices, as well as undertaking IchinenSanzen meditation.

The Daimoku is indeed an amulet tied around the neck of the ordinary person in the Degenerate Age. Its the jewel in the robe. Practice with it can be simple, but if you can undertake more, it behooves you to do so.

Further to Queequeg's post:

if you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death - mind of definite emergence or renunciation
...to attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment - bodhicitta
...you must perceive the mystic truth that is originally inherent in all living beings - emptiness of persons and phenomena, and perhaps tathagatagarbha too

That's all basic Mahayana.

[dude]

Bristol
You are indeed correct.

I. omitted the qualifying details for the sake of simplicity.

[DGA]

I have tried to make it clear that according to all the stuff i have exposed myself to, from TM meditation to a gazillion Tibetan initiations, to Holy Alchemy and a study of the Kabbalah and a slight brief look at new age stuff..that I know that Lotus Buddhism as "Q" has deciphered it's legacy and meaning is the definitive practice in this age where the capacity of the people and the degenerative time when as predicted all of Lord Sakyamuni's teachings lose their power to lead people to Buddhahood.

There are a lot of unsure Buddhists who have practiced various forms of Buddhism for years..some have given up all hope of anything happening in this life and it's a wait till you die scenario. This is never the case in Nichiren Shonin's practice.. check bottom of post (1)

Life changes, you get to see your karma in action and suffer it through and enjoy it through...your life ends up like it is on roids. Reality is thrust in your face...it's all very personal and difficult to stick to for it really gets hairy at times...but it is all you..so i have chosen to ride the storm with Gohonzon .

You get to live your life with Buddha and Buddha's retinue . for real...it becomes obvious.


(1) there are a few letters to desperate practitioners in the olden days of Samurai class and peasantry where Nichiren shonin wrote to people and promised that they would end up in the Pure Land of Eagle Peak. which is up to interpretation...for me it's living in Nirvana in Samsara ...so maybe it's a promise to one of their future lives where they shall live in Nirvana in Samsara ..for the two are two sides of the same coin at once. as i understand it.

That's interesting. How about this:

If someone were to ask you, Is NMRK the definitive practice or path for Nichiren Buddhists, would you answer yes or no?

[DGA]

As far as I know, it is, but I haven’t followed the thread in question.

I would answer "yes", daimoku is the definitive practice.. but is that really what the question is about? A basic search about Nichiren practice makes that clear quickly

That was my understanding, too. I was surprised to see that this observation was rejected in another thread, so I thought I'd crowdsource some wisdom on it.

Thanks.

Here's the exchange from the other thread:

Well, you misunderstand it. That interpretation of Nichiren is not correct. But that's not the point.

No I don't, and it is-- heard it hundreds of times from Nichirenistas. But as you say, it is not the point.

Malcolm is not one to have the patience to parse things out when he has a point he wants to make. Instead of asking how I thought he had it wrong, he did the above.

"chanting NMRK" is not the definitive path.

NMRK is the definitive path. It may be expressed differently in other times and places. At this time an place, the definitive path is expressed as NMRK.

Chanting NMRK is the Essential Practice. But the practice is not limited to that, and for Buddhahood, the practice of NMRK must be more robust.

Actually, I think it was me who was careless in reading your conversation in that other thread.

What other practices would be involved viz. NMRK apart from chanting? I recognize this may be a stupid question, but I'm trying to come to a better understanding of your perspective.

Thank you for taking the time.

[Malcolm]

Actually, I think it was me who was careless in reading your conversation in that other thread.

What other practices would be involved viz. NMRK apart from chanting? I recognize this may be a stupid question, but I'm trying to come to a better understanding of your perspective.

Thank you for taking the time.

I once went to hear a Shingon monk, Jomyo Tanaka Sensei, his description of Buddhism in Japan was amusing:

In Zen we have "just sit," the mudra of the body; in Nichiren, we have "just chant," the mudra of speech; in Pure Land we have "just faith," the mudra of the mind; but in Shingon we have all three.

[Minobu]

I have tried to make it clear that according to all the stuff i have exposed myself to, from TM meditation to a gazillion Tibetan initiations, to Holy Alchemy and a study of the Kabbalah and a slight brief look at new age stuff..that I know that Lotus Buddhism as "Q" has deciphered it's legacy and meaning is the definitive practice in this age where the capacity of the people and the degenerative time when as predicted all of Lord Sakyamuni's teachings lose their power to lead people to Buddhahood.

There are a lot of unsure Buddhists who have practiced various forms of Buddhism for years..some have given up all hope of anything happening in this life and it's a wait till you die scenario. This is never the case in Nichiren Shonin's practice.. check bottom of post (1)

Life changes, you get to see your karma in action and suffer it through and enjoy it through...your life ends up like it is on roids. Reality is thrust in your face...it's all very personal and difficult to stick to for it really gets hairy at times...but it is all you..so i have chosen to ride the storm with Gohonzon .

You get to live your life with Buddha and Buddha's retinue . for real...it becomes obvious.


(1) there are a few letters to desperate practitioners in the olden days of Samurai class and peasantry where Nichiren shonin wrote to people and promised that they would end up in the Pure Land of Eagle Peak. which is up to interpretation...for me it's living in Nirvana in Samsara ...so maybe it's a promise to one of their future lives where they shall live in Nirvana in Samsara ..for the two are two sides of the same coin at once. as i understand it.

That's interesting. How about this:

If someone were to ask you, Is NMRK the definitive practice or path for Nichiren Buddhists, would you answer yes or no?

sometimes a yes or no answer to one would be misleading to the many.

thank you for giving me a platform to help out in understanding what Buddhism is about n the predicted degenerative age of the Dharma.

[Caoimhghín]

Orthodoxy & orthopraxy seem united in Nichiren Buddhism, like essence and function, to the extent that there appears to be no conception between where orthodoxy ends and orthopraxy begins, or vice-versa. At the beginning of Swanson's Móhēzhǐguān, in the introduction I believe, he talks about Ven Zhìyǐ's comparison of orthodoxy (wisdom) and orthopraxy (practice) two the two wheels of a cart or the two wings of a bird.

Nichiren Buddhism seems to take this to heart to a high degree. Hence my usage of the term "orthopraxy" rather than just any praxy. There is a "definitive" praxy in Nichiren Buddhism to match the "definitive" doxy. Like the two wings of a bird in Ven Zhìyǐ's simile. If the left wing is singular so to much the right be, perhaps, is the reasoning? Imagine a bird flying with 4 left wings and only 1 right one. One wisdom: NMRK. One practice: NMRK.

I am an outsider looking in, though, and one only slightly exposed to the tradition at that. I'm not a Nichiren Buddhist myself, so my impressions and interpretations of Nichiren Buddhism are liable to be the impressions and interpretations of someone who was not ultimately convinced that this was the "only" way, on a personal or general level. This could all well be nonsense from an inside perspective.