Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

DGA
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by DGA » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:36 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:33 pm
Orthodoxy & orthopraxy seem united in Nichiren Buddhism, like essence and function, to the extent that there appears to be no conception between where orthodoxy ends and orthopraxy begins, or vice-versa. At the beginning of Swanson's Móhēzhǐguān, in the introduction I believe, he talks about Ven Zhìyǐ's comparison of orthodoxy (wisdom) and orthopraxy (practice) two the two wheels of a cart or the two wings of a bird.

Nichiren Buddhism seems to take this to heart to a high degree. Hence my usage of the term "orthopraxy" rather than just any praxy. There is a "definitive" praxy in Nichiren Buddhism to match the "definitive" doxy. Like the two wings of a bird in Ven Zhìyǐ's simile. If the left wing is singular so to much the right be, perhaps, is the reasoning? Imagine a bird flying with 4 left wings and only 1 right one. One wisdom: NMRK. One practice: NMRK.

I am an outsider looking in, though, and one only slightly exposed to the tradition at that. I'm not a Nichiren Buddhist myself, so my impressions and interpretations of Nichiren Buddhism are liable to be the impressions and interpretations of someone who was not ultimately convinced that this was the "only" way, on a personal or general level. This could all well be nonsense from an inside perspective.
It certainly seems that Nichiren himself felt that there was exactly one correct doctrine and one correct practice. Example:

viewtopic.php?f=53&p=374733

It's the content of that one correct practice and one correct doctrine that get debated in this sub.

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Minobu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Minobu » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:28 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:43 pm


I once went to hear a Shingon monk, Jomyo Tanaka Sensei, his description of Buddhism in Japan was amusing:
In Zen we have "just sit," the mudra of the body; in Nichiren, we have "just chant," the mudra of speech; in Pure Land we have "just faith," the mudra of the mind; but in Shingon we have all three.
How can you discuss Nichiren Shonin's teachings if you have not practiced them. I would not dare discuss Dzogchen for i have not entered upon that path at all. If i referred to it in any way as rubbish it would deem me a boor.

you cannot explain what you have not experienced. Nor can you refer to it as rubbish from the stand point of someone completely unaware of the practice and teachings .

I shall tell you this Malcolm . You are slandering every character on the Gohonzon when you use the word rubbish towards any aspect of this practice.

your little nichernistas and lotussutraistas is defamatory and slanderous to the Buddha.

The Buddha is inscribed on the Gohonzon and revered by people who practice Nichiren shonin's teachings.

Just because you are unaware does not condone you to slander the Buddha .

hopefully this gets posted.

i thought it appropriate to post the words of Aleister Crowley ..for you and anyone else engaging in this frame of argumentative slander.
For , after all, one cannot explain the necessity of the study of Latin either to imbecile children or to stupid educationalists ; for not having learned Latin, they have not developed the brains to learn anything .

When people begin to argue about things instead of doing them , they become absolutely impossible. Their minds begin to work about it and about, and they go out by the same door as they went in. They remain brutish, voluble, and uncomprehending .


.

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Queequeg
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Queequeg » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:09 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:33 pm
Orthodoxy & orthopraxy seem united in Nichiren Buddhism, like essence and function, to the extent that there appears to be no conception between where orthodoxy ends and orthopraxy begins, or vice-versa. At the beginning of Swanson's Móhēzhǐguān, in the introduction I believe, he talks about Ven Zhìyǐ's comparison of orthodoxy (wisdom) and orthopraxy (practice) two the two wheels of a cart or the two wings of a bird.

Nichiren Buddhism seems to take this to heart to a high degree. Hence my usage of the term "orthopraxy" rather than just any praxy. There is a "definitive" praxy in Nichiren Buddhism to match the "definitive" doxy. Like the two wings of a bird in Ven Zhìyǐ's simile. If the left wing is singular so to much the right be, perhaps, is the reasoning? Imagine a bird flying with 4 left wings and only 1 right one. One wisdom: NMRK. One practice: NMRK.

I am an outsider looking in, though, and one only slightly exposed to the tradition at that. I'm not a Nichiren Buddhist myself, so my impressions and interpretations of Nichiren Buddhism are liable to be the impressions and interpretations of someone who was not ultimately convinced that this was the "only" way, on a personal or general level. This could all well be nonsense from an inside perspective.
There is a misconception that practice is limited to chanting. NMRK is a complete practice that goes far beyond chanting Daimoku. While what you write is correct, it does not actually touch on either the doctrines or the practice except in the most general way.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Queequeg » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:17 pm

DGA wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:36 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:33 pm
Orthodoxy & orthopraxy seem united in Nichiren Buddhism, like essence and function, to the extent that there appears to be no conception between where orthodoxy ends and orthopraxy begins, or vice-versa. At the beginning of Swanson's Móhēzhǐguān, in the introduction I believe, he talks about Ven Zhìyǐ's comparison of orthodoxy (wisdom) and orthopraxy (practice) two the two wheels of a cart or the two wings of a bird.

Nichiren Buddhism seems to take this to heart to a high degree. Hence my usage of the term "orthopraxy" rather than just any praxy. There is a "definitive" praxy in Nichiren Buddhism to match the "definitive" doxy. Like the two wings of a bird in Ven Zhìyǐ's simile. If the left wing is singular so to much the right be, perhaps, is the reasoning? Imagine a bird flying with 4 left wings and only 1 right one. One wisdom: NMRK. One practice: NMRK.

I am an outsider looking in, though, and one only slightly exposed to the tradition at that. I'm not a Nichiren Buddhist myself, so my impressions and interpretations of Nichiren Buddhism are liable to be the impressions and interpretations of someone who was not ultimately convinced that this was the "only" way, on a personal or general level. This could all well be nonsense from an inside perspective.
It certainly seems that Nichiren himself felt that there was exactly one correct doctrine and one correct practice. Example:

viewtopic.php?f=53&p=374733

It's the content of that one correct practice and one correct doctrine that get debated in this sub.
That thread does not really contribute anything here at all.

What's your angle?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:22 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:09 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:33 pm
Orthodoxy & orthopraxy seem united in Nichiren Buddhism, like essence and function, to the extent that there appears to be no conception between where orthodoxy ends and orthopraxy begins, or vice-versa. At the beginning of Swanson's Móhēzhǐguān, in the introduction I believe, he talks about Ven Zhìyǐ's comparison of orthodoxy (wisdom) and orthopraxy (practice) two the two wheels of a cart or the two wings of a bird.

Nichiren Buddhism seems to take this to heart to a high degree. Hence my usage of the term "orthopraxy" rather than just any praxy. There is a "definitive" praxy in Nichiren Buddhism to match the "definitive" doxy. Like the two wings of a bird in Ven Zhìyǐ's simile. If the left wing is singular so to much the right be, perhaps, is the reasoning? Imagine a bird flying with 4 left wings and only 1 right one. One wisdom: NMRK. One practice: NMRK.

I am an outsider looking in, though, and one only slightly exposed to the tradition at that. I'm not a Nichiren Buddhist myself, so my impressions and interpretations of Nichiren Buddhism are liable to be the impressions and interpretations of someone who was not ultimately convinced that this was the "only" way, on a personal or general level. This could all well be nonsense from an inside perspective.
There is a misconception that practice is limited to chanting. NMRK is a complete practice that goes far beyond chanting Daimoku. While what you write is correct, it does not actually touch on either the doctrines or the practice except in the most general way.
Perhaps my misconception is that the practice of NMRK and the truth of NMRK are considered the exact same thing.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:32 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:17 pm

That thread does not really contribute anything here at all.
Sure it does.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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rory
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by rory » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:24 pm

If Malcolm and DGA really want to understand Nichiren Buddhism they they should join the Zhiyi study group; Nichiren relied entirely on Zhiyi and Tendai philosophy which would explain the totality of NMRK. Unless they do not want to do the work but merely criticize and undermine people's faith.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

marting
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by marting » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:30 pm

rory wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:24 pm
If Malcolm and DGA really want to understand Nichiren Buddhism they they should join the Zhiyi study group; Nichiren relied entirely on Zhiyi and Tendai philosophy which would explain the totality of NMRK. Unless they do not want to do the work but merely criticize and undermine people's faith.
gassho
Rory
Hey Rory, I definitely understand your enthusiasm about the Zhiyi study group. However, I don't think the posters you mentioned are attempting to undermine anyone's faith. As a matter of fact, your casting these discussions in light of an attack on faith is starting to become tiring to read. Knock it off, please. :)

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Minobu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Minobu » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:44 pm

marting wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:30 pm
rory wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:24 pm
If Malcolm and DGA really want to understand Nichiren Buddhism they they should join the Zhiyi study group; Nichiren relied entirely on Zhiyi and Tendai philosophy which would explain the totality of NMRK. Unless they do not want to do the work but merely criticize and undermine people's faith.
gassho
Rory
Hey ror, I don't think the posters you mentioned are attempting to undermine anyone's faith. As a matter of fact, your casting these discussions in light of an attack on faith is starting to become tiring to read. Knock it off, please. :)
nichiernistas, lotussutraista , using the words rubbish and NMRK in same sentence, ...I would never even think of doing anything resembling that in the Dzogchen sub forum. i mean really...these thoughts to produce this sort of thing are variant from being purified and melding in some form or other with Buddha mind.

This is what Lotus buddhism is all about...no one loses faith from the knocks...in fact it's expected from the bowels of anti buddhism.
Lotus Buddhism produces fine sentients that are bolstered by the qualities of Bodhisattva .

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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by narhwal90 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:45 pm

Personally I think it interesting to critically divide the question of practice between the daimoku vs doctrinal elements. Nichiren didn't publish a detailed practice specification, there are a handful of gosho that briefly touch on procedures; chanting daimoku, sutra recitation etc. There is quite a bit more about philosophical underpinnings of the mandala etc and then we're into the "entire sutra contained in the title", "the effective practice for all in the latter day, all others are provisional" sorts of propositions. I can certainly see the latter as controversial and subject to considerable differences of opinion within and without the Nichiren schools.

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:27 pm

rory wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:24 pm
If Malcolm and DGA really want to understand Nichiren Buddhism they they should join the Zhiyi study group; Nichiren relied entirely on Zhiyi and Tendai philosophy which would explain the totality of NMRK. Unless they do not want to do the work but merely criticize and undermine people's faith.
gassho
Rory
Rory, you do realize that DGA is an ordained Tendai priest, who used run a Tendai group in DC, affiliated with the Tendai monastery in Upstate NY? Hence his name, Jikan, which he generally prefers to go by, rather than Daniel. Jikan is very open minded, he has even studied Tibetan Buddhism, unlike you.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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rory
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by rory » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:27 pm
rory wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:24 pm
If Malcolm and DGA really want to understand Nichiren Buddhism they they should join the Zhiyi study group; Nichiren relied entirely on Zhiyi and Tendai philosophy which would explain the totality of NMRK. Unless they do not want to do the work but merely criticize and undermine people's faith.
gassho
Rory
Rory, you do realize that DGA is an ordained Tendai priest, who used run a Tendai group in DC, affiliated with the Tendai monastery in Upstate NY? Hence his name, Jikan, which he generally prefers to go by, rather than Daniel. Jikan is very open minded, he has even studied Tibetan Buddhism, unlike you.
As far as I know DGA was ordained a NY Betsuin doshu, meaning a kind of assistant priest, it's a preliminary ordination that you get when you start out. I have no idea what his training entailed as the NY Betsuin does thing differently than Japan. I don't think he is a priest anymore but I could be wrong.

Rev. Jikai is a Tendai Shu priest, meaning he is an acarya; he went through esoteric training on Mt. Hiei. He also reads Japanese and Chinese, which I don't think DGA has. If DGA understood Zhiyi and the intellectual background he would know where Nichiren is coming from, Queequeg certainly does, and he certainly would have understood our other conversation:
viewtopic.php?f=102&t=27263&p=423053#p423053
but you're invited Malcolm
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:36 pm

rory wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:27 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:27 pm
rory wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:24 pm
If Malcolm and DGA really want to understand Nichiren Buddhism they they should join the Zhiyi study group; Nichiren relied entirely on Zhiyi and Tendai philosophy which would explain the totality of NMRK. Unless they do not want to do the work but merely criticize and undermine people's faith.
gassho
Rory
Rory, you do realize that DGA is an ordained Tendai priest, who used run a Tendai group in DC, affiliated with the Tendai monastery in Upstate NY? Hence his name, Jikan, which he generally prefers to go by, rather than Daniel. Jikan is very open minded, he has even studied Tibetan Buddhism, unlike you.
As far as I know DGA was ordained a NY Betsuin doshu, meaning a kind of assistant priest, it's a preliminary ordination that you get when you start out. I have no idea what his training entailed as the NY Betsuin does thing differently than Japan. I don't think he is a priest anymore but I could be wrong.
My point was only that Jikan actually has a lot of experience with Tendai. So while you can castigate me all you like, I thought it was a little strange to harsh out on Jikan.

Rev. Jikai is a Tendai Shu priest, meaning he is an acarya; he went through esoteric training on Mt. Hiei. He also reads Japanese and Chinese, which I don't think DGA has.
I wasn't comparing them, merely pointing out that Jikan is not a hick from the sticks.

If DGA understood Zhiyi and the intellectual background he would know where Nichiren is coming from, Queequeg certainly does, and he certainly would have understood our other conversation:\

viewtopic.php?f=102&t=27263&p=423053#p423053
but you're invited Malcolm
gassho
Rory
Thanks.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

DGA
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by DGA » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:39 am

Minobu wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:48 pm
DGA wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:34 pm

If someone were to ask you, Is NMRK the definitive practice or path for Nichiren Buddhists, would you answer yes or no?
sometimes a yes or no answer to one would be misleading to the many.

thank you for giving me a platform to help out in understanding what Buddhism is about n the predicted degenerative age of the Dharma.
That's cool. If I may ask a follow-up:

what would be the harm in answering this question with a direct yes-or-no answer? And who are "the many" who may be harmed?

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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by DGA » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:48 am

rory wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:24 pm
If Malcolm and DGA really want to understand Nichiren Buddhism they they should join the Zhiyi study group;
I'm lurking in the thread that Jikai is leading and I look forward to the excellent Dharma to be presented there. But that's beside the point, and you know it.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Whataboutism

I started this thread with a specific question. Do you have an answer to it? I'd like to hear your perspective.
Nichiren relied entirely on Zhiyi and Tendai philosophy which would explain the totality of NMRK.
Nichiren did rely heavily on Zhiyi, but there are teachings of Zhiyi and of Tendai generally that Nichiren emphatically did NOT endorse.* And there are other ways in which Nichiren did innovate based on his understanding of what Zhiyi taught and what the sutras mean. Generally, if you have a question about Tendai, it's good to ask the Tendai people; if you have a question about Nichiren, it's good to ask the Nichiren people. Mixing them up can lead to confusion and unfounded claims.

Unfounded claims can embarrass someone in online discussion. About which...
Unless they do not want to do the work but merely criticize and undermine people's faith.
You either assume or merely imply that Malcolm is a lazy person and is here to "undermine people's faith." This unfounded. Unless you have the siddhi of clairvoyance (maybe you do?), you have no basis for either claim. How would you demonstrate that a person you are interacting with online is 1) lazy and 2) acting with the motive to undermine the faith of others, with "faith" understood in a Buddhist sense?

Further: what sort of "faith" could be disrupted by some idiot stumbling into an online forum with a dumb question like the one I led this thread with? Or with the questions Malcolm and others have posed? How do you understand the concept and practice of faith in Buddha Dharma? I think these are important questions.



Curious? here's a start

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=27821
Last edited by DGA on Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by DGA » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:55 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:32 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:17 pm

That thread does not really contribute anything here at all.
Sure it does.
Here's the context in which I posted that link:
DGA wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:36 pm

It certainly seems that Nichiren himself felt that there was exactly one correct doctrine and one correct practice. Example:

viewtopic.php?f=53&p=374733

It's the content of that one correct practice and one correct doctrine that get debated in this sub.
The post overall is responding to some ideas that were raised by another DW member that I thought didn't really correspond to what I've seen and read on how Nichiren Buddhism works.

I made a specific claim and supported it with some evidence. The claim is: "It certainly seems that Nichiren himself felt that there was exactly one correct doctrine and one correct practice."

The evidence is in that link. If you have the patriarch of your tradition sending representatives of virtually every other known-to-him tradition to Hell for teaching the wrong Dharma, I think you have evidence that said patriarch felt that there was exactly one correct doctrine and one correct practice.

I don't see how anything I've said in this post could be controversial in this sub.

That's the contribution.

/pedant

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Minobu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Minobu » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:28 am

DGA wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:39 am
Minobu wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:48 pm
DGA wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:34 pm

If someone were to ask you, Is NMRK the definitive practice or path for Nichiren Buddhists, would you answer yes or no?
sometimes a yes or no answer to one would be misleading to the many.

thank you for giving me a platform to help out in understanding what Buddhism is about n the predicted degenerative age of the Dharma.
That's cool. If I may ask a follow-up:

what would be the harm in answering this question with a direct yes-or-no answer? And who are "the many" who may be harmed?
because it would deny the practice and study aspect along with the mahayana and vajrayana aspects...the vajrayana being it effects your entire system of chakras and everything that goes into being a Buddha ...so in one respect Odaimoku is Everything and yet it is but one part of the practice...

marting
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by marting » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:55 am

marting wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:30 pm
rory wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:24 pm
If Malcolm and DGA really want to understand Nichiren Buddhism they they should join the Zhiyi study group; Nichiren relied entirely on Zhiyi and Tendai philosophy which would explain the totality of NMRK. Unless they do not want to do the work but merely criticize and undermine people's faith.
gassho
Rory
Hey Rory, I definitely understand your enthusiasm about the Zhiyi study group. However, I don't think the posters you mentioned are attempting to undermine anyone's faith. As a matter of fact, your casting these discussions in light of an attack on faith is starting to become tiring to read. Knock it off, please. :)
While I don't usually like to read discussions where someone plays the victim card when things don't go their way, I'd like to revise what I said. If someone does feel like their faith is attacked, people should change how they express their points to address it.

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Queequeg
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Queequeg » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:20 pm

DGA wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:55 am
I made a specific claim and supported it with some evidence. The claim is: "It certainly seems that Nichiren himself felt that there was exactly one correct doctrine and one correct practice."

The evidence is in that link. If you have the patriarch of your tradition sending representatives of virtually every other known-to-him tradition to Hell for teaching the wrong Dharma, I think you have evidence that said patriarch felt that there was exactly one correct doctrine and one correct practice.

I don't see how anything I've said in this post could be controversial in this sub.
I see where you are coming from.

In that thread you linked, I offered a response, explaining what I understand about what Nichiren taught, stripped of the the specific language - ie. NMRK.

viewtopic.php?f=53&p=374733#p374707
You have to understand Nichiren's teaching to understand why he said these things. And he was vocal and untiring in his assertions.

His teachings are based on the Lotus Sutra and the Tiantai-Tendai teachings.

1. Nichiren asserted that a direct connection to the Buddha's enlightenment is the only real path to Buddhahood. Everything else, all upaya, if taken as a final path, is just a painful austerity.

2. The moment you hear the Buddha's name, ie. you are introduced to the real nature of the Buddha, whether you understand it or not, you are unalterably on the path to enlightenment. As the Avatamsaka Sutra explains, entering the path is fundamentally not different than achieving the goal. In the Tiantai-Tendai-Nichiren view, the Buddha is revealed in full, without expedients, only in the Lotus Sutra. Hence, the Lotus Sutra is the profoundest teaching. Everything else in comparison is upaya and coarse/unrefined/provisional.

3. For Nichiren, the field of endeavor of the Buddhist path is the saha world. Escape from the Saha world for Nichiren is a Phantom City. This is where the endeavor for Buddhahood plays out. This is the swamp from which the Lotus sprouts. Buddhahood is attained now, in this body.

Nichiren's teaching is radically oriented to this moment. At the same time, understood through ichinen sanzen, this moment is the apex of the cosmos - the profoundest moment where enlightenment is achieved. Practice undertaken now in this moment is the awakening of enlightenment. This moment is THE crucial moment.

Any teaching that does not directly teach this immediate path is an upaya that is to be discarded in light of this teaching (its a little more refined than that - the revelation of the immediate path is said to transform expedients into the immediate path - opening the provisional to reveal the real). Teachers who obfuscate the immediacy of enlightenment lead people wrong, and are karmically culpable. Hence, the teachers he asserted fell into hell are in his view, people who who knew this immediate teaching but obfuscated the immediacy of enlightenment and caused people to waste this precious human life on fruitless austerities.
The thread drifted off topic and addressed the OP really only on the first page. If you want to inflame passions, as you did in the OP of that post ("You can read the article for a full catalogue to see if Nichiren sent any patriarchs of your tradition to hell..."), that's your prerogative. Its the way you put things that draws your intent into question.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:32 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:20 pm


The thread drifted off topic and addressed the OP really only on the first page. If you want to inflame passions, as you did in the OP of that post ("You can read the article for a full catalogue to see if Nichiren sent any patriarchs of your tradition to hell..."), that's your prerogative. Its the way you put things that draws your intent into question.
Your post basically claims there is only one correct understanding and one correct practice. You do understand why some of us think this position is risible?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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