Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

ItsRaining
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by ItsRaining » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:06 am

marting wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:36 am
Tibet is not an independent country anymore, so it's no longer like that. Gelug is still popular among the diaspora because of the Dalai Lama, and I think inside Tibet too.
Tibet not being an independent country doesn't mean they don't have philosophical views in Buddhism....

Like I know Tsonkhapass Lamrim Chenmo is pretty popular in China/Taiwan.

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:03 pm

ItsRaining wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:52 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:55 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:06 pm


i was unaware of his sectarianism...i read his liberation in the palm of your hand ..and well i never was clued into the gelugpa nygma wars you discuss.

Anyway back to source the question;
No, that people use upaya as a means to justify his remarks.

you said


it's the first i heard and wonder if this is actual or just something "You Feel"
Yes, I have heard Gelugpas explain away his remarks as being related only to the fact that many Gelugpas in eastern Tibet were all becoming interested in Dzogchen, and he did not like that. He also did not like the so called Rime movement. He regarded it as a threat the Gelug intellectual hegemony in Tibet.
Just wondering, what is it like now? Is Gelug still the predominant philosophical view in Tibet?

For a long while, study of the Gelug school was predominant in academia. This is not the case anymore. Also, since the Ganden Phodrang was toppled, you could not say that in Tibet Gelug is the dominant school now.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:10 pm

ItsRaining wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:32 am
The Huayan school gives the explanation to the meaning of "entering the path is fundamentally not different than achieving the goal" in greater detail and it's not that they are the same. They said that since Buddhahood can be said to be comprised of the 52 stages, it is not apart from these stages and without said stages there would be nothing to make up the whole system. Like 1 meter is made of 100cm. So without the small stages the whole cannot exist.
That is an interesting way to put it. I think the Tiantai view parallels that.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Queequeg
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:24 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:10 pm
Those critiques were upaya.
That's what people say about Pabhongkha's criticisms too; I don't buy it personally. There is upāya, there is also grasping to views. I consider Pabhongkha and Nichiren's condemnations of other schools to be examples of the latter. YMMV.

M
I don't think I know much about Pabhongkha's views. I think I may have come across the name in a history of Tibetan Buddhism and his critical stance sounds vaguely familiar to me.

One thing I will point out to distinguish Nichiren, Nichiren was not speaking from a position of power. He was from a remote village from an unremarkable commoner family. In this, he is actually distinct from other Kamakura era Buddhist leaders who came from aristocratic backgrounds.

Nichiren's studies were supported by a minor official from childhood, but that was due to his ability and charisma which were apparent from a very early age. Later, when he criticized teachers, he was not speaking from a position of power, but as an outsider. Due to his low status he did not receive protection from the authorities and instead, he was repeatedly assaulted, officially and by angry mobs, and persecuted for his views, including a sentence of death that was commuted only at the very last moment - some say only when the blade was raised over his neck. When offers of official patronage were made to him, he turned them down because he refused the strings that would be attached. His perspective on the various teachings he criticized was not based on mere intellectual disagreement but rather he pursued the doctrinal errors only after he observed the detrimental effect he saw teachings have on ordinary people's lives. I don't want to go into the details because these tend to unnecessarily inflame sentiments in a diverse forum like this. I just want to make clear, he had no sectarian perspective when he was making his criticisms because he had no sect. Rather, his criticisms are more properly described as reformist in nature, though people will disagree with that, too.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:11 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:35 pm
I just want to make clear, he had no sectarian perspective when he was making his criticisms because he had no sect.

Oh, come on. Of course he had a sectarian perspective, he was raised and educated in the Tendai tradition. It is pretty hard to read Risshōankokuron and not be surprised by the bile Nichiren expresses towards Honen's Jodo Shu.

He would have been appalled at Tibetan Buddhism.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Minobu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Minobu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:55 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:06 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:56 pm



Source of what? Pabhongkha's sectarian remarks?
i was unaware of his sectarianism...i read his liberation in the palm of your hand ..and well i never was clued into the gelugpa nygma wars you discuss.

Anyway back to source the question;
No, that people use upaya as a means to justify his remarks.

you said
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:24 pm


That's what people say about Pabhongkha's criticisms too;
M
it's the first i heard and wonder if this is actual or just something "You Feel"
Yes, I have heard Gelugpas explain away his remarks as being related only to the fact that many Gelugpas in eastern Tibet were all becoming interested in Dzogchen, and he did not like that. He also did not like the so called Rime movement. He regarded it as a threat the Gelug intellectual hegemony in Tibet.
I asked you twice now a third.
Where do you get where you claim pabongka was using upaya as the reason for the criticisms .

i asked for source for i fear some would think you just shot that fake news out to bolster your stance in the discussion with "Q".

we don't want that do we?

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Minobu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Minobu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:11 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:35 pm
I just want to make clear, he had no sectarian perspective when he was making his criticisms because he had no sect.

Oh, come on. Of course he had a sectarian perspective, he was raised and educated in the Tendai tradition. It is pretty hard to read Risshōankokuron and not be surprised by the bile Nichiren expresses towards Honen's Jodo Shu.

He would have been appalled at Tibetan Buddhism.
it's like ad hominem heaven here towards Nichiren shonin.

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Queequeg
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:11 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:35 pm
I just want to make clear, he had no sectarian perspective when he was making his criticisms because he had no sect.

Oh, come on. Of course he had a sectarian perspective, he was raised and educated in the Tendai tradition. It is pretty hard to read Risshōankokuron and not be surprised by the bile Nichiren expresses towards Honen's Jodo Shu.

He would have been appalled at Tibetan Buddhism.
Malcolm, with respect, I have reason to doubt you have a broad based understanding of the controversies that were current at the time. Nichiren's criticism actually can be read in the context of other critiques of Honen coming not only from Tendai circles, but other sects such as Shingon and Kegon, as well. Honen didn't intentionally establish a sect either.

The lens of sectarianism is problematic when projected onto what was going on during the Kamakura period.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

marting
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by marting » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:39 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:16 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:55 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:06 pm


i was unaware of his sectarianism...i read his liberation in the palm of your hand ..and well i never was clued into the gelugpa nygma wars you discuss.

Anyway back to source the question;
No, that people use upaya as a means to justify his remarks.

you said


it's the first i heard and wonder if this is actual or just something "You Feel"
Yes, I have heard Gelugpas explain away his remarks as being related only to the fact that many Gelugpas in eastern Tibet were all becoming interested in Dzogchen, and he did not like that. He also did not like the so called Rime movement. He regarded it as a threat the Gelug intellectual hegemony in Tibet.
I asked you twice now a third.
Where do you get where you claim pabongka was using upaya as the reason for the criticisms .

i asked for source for i fear some would think you just shot that fake news out to bolster your stance in the discussion with "Q".

we don't want that do we?
Close your eyes. Take deep breaths. Relax.

:coffee:

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Queequeg
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:47 pm

marting wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:39 pm

Close your eyes. Take deep breaths. Relax.

:coffee:
Do you really think that comment will have the effect you nominally intend?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:09 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:33 pm
The lens of sectarianism is problematic when projected onto what was going on during the Kamakura period.
First of all, you have no idea how much Buddhist history I have studied, including Japanese Buddhist history.

Second of all, sectarianism is sectarianism. It is not problematical at all to observe it in Kamakura Buddhism. Dogen was also sectarian, pretty firmly so. It's par for the course for people who are invested in their own ideology or someone else's to be sectarian.

So let's not be naive and pretend that sectarianism isn't rife in Buddhism, everywhere.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:11 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:16 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:55 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:06 pm


i was unaware of his sectarianism...i read his liberation in the palm of your hand ..and well i never was clued into the gelugpa nygma wars you discuss.

Anyway back to source the question;
No, that people use upaya as a means to justify his remarks.

you said


it's the first i heard and wonder if this is actual or just something "You Feel"
Yes, I have heard Gelugpas explain away his remarks as being related only to the fact that many Gelugpas in eastern Tibet were all becoming interested in Dzogchen, and he did not like that. He also did not like the so called Rime movement. He regarded it as a threat the Gelug intellectual hegemony in Tibet.
I asked you twice now a third.
Where do you get where you claim pabongka was using upaya as the reason for the criticisms .

i asked for source for i fear some would think you just shot that fake news out to bolster your stance in the discussion with "Q".
I am not required to report to you where and when I have had this or that conversation with Gelug apologists for Pabhongkha. It is sufficient that I have had them and now report them to you.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

marting
Posts: 145
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by marting » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:14 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:47 pm
marting wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:39 pm

Close your eyes. Take deep breaths. Relax.

:coffee:
Do you really think that comment will have the effect you nominally intend?
We all need to decompress from time to time.

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Minobu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Minobu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:17 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:47 pm
marting wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:39 pm

Close your eyes. Take deep breaths. Relax.

:coffee:
Do you really think that comment will have the effect you nominally intend?
actually i took it at face value, like Malcolm is not going to answer it :coffee:

As pointed out to me off site, he just did that and used the opportunity in discussion with "Q" to bolster his sectarian war with gelupas..

i still am hoping for malcolm's sake thats all bullshit and he can give us a definitive source to the fact Pabongka was using upaya in his criticizes , which also are claimed by the other side of the sectarian war.

it is also weird how that sectarian war ended up in this thread.
shameful...it's not what Buddha wanted of us.

marting
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by marting » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:31 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:17 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:47 pm
marting wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:39 pm

Close your eyes. Take deep breaths. Relax.

:coffee:
Do you really think that comment will have the effect you nominally intend?
actually i took it at face value, like Malcolm is not going to answer it :coffee:

As pointed out to me off site, he just did that and used the opportunity in discussion with "Q" to bolster his sectarian war with gelupas..

i still am hoping for malcolm's sake thats all bullshit and he can give us a definitive source to the fact Pabongka was using upaya in his criticizes , which also are claimed by the other side of the sectarian war.

it is also weird how that sectarian war ended up in this thread.
shameful...it's not what Buddha wanted of us.
Frankly I'm having a hard time understanding what you want out of Malcolm. :shrug:

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Minobu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Minobu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:34 pm

marting wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:31 pm
Minobu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:17 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:47 pm


Do you really think that comment will have the effect you nominally intend?
actually i took it at face value, like Malcolm is not going to answer it :coffee:

As pointed out to me off site, he just did that and used the opportunity in discussion with "Q" to bolster his sectarian war with gelupas..

i still am hoping for malcolm's sake thats all bullshit and he can give us a definitive source to the fact Pabongka was using upaya in his criticizes , which also are claimed by the other side of the sectarian war.

it is also weird how that sectarian war ended up in this thread.
shameful...it's not what Buddha wanted of us.
Personally I'm having a hard time understanding what you want out of Malcolm. :shrug:
ahhh the games....i do not play games...

all i want is honesty and non trolling out of all who claim to be teachers...

i analyze and discuss things...
there are people who don't come here but read this stuff and we talk...

when malcolm refers to Nichiren's writing as bile and talks of the rishuonkukoron ...he should discuss the writing and not just call it bile...

it's ad hominem heaven when he talks of nichiren in this way...

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:02 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:34 pm
when malcolm refers to Nichiren's writing as bile and talks of the rishuonkukoron ...he should discuss the writing and not just call it bile...
I did not refer to the writing as bile, I said he, Nichiren, expressed bile towards Honen in his writing. Get it straight, cowboy.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Minobu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Minobu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:02 pm
Minobu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:34 pm
when malcolm refers to Nichiren's writing as bile and talks of the rishuonkukoron ...he should discuss the writing and not just call it bile...
I did not refer to the writing as bile, I said he, Nichiren, expressed bile towards Honen in his writing. Get it straight, cowboy.
so it is to be about semantics then...let the games begin...
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:11 pm
It is pretty hard to read Risshōankokuron and not be surprised by the bile Nichiren expresses towards Honen's Jodo Shu.
well i dunno cowgirl, if you say he expressed bile in one of his major writings , than is that not saying there is bile in his writing or the writing contains bile , or is bile...or that expressing is the same as writing in this instance...after all we are talking about a piece of writing..

so the whole upaya thing is brushed under the rug..i was told it would be for it is not there ...i was hoping you could redeem that accusation... :shrug:
i'm a fan.... :applause:

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:10 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:17 pm

i still am hoping for malcolm's sake thats all bullshit and he can give us a definitive source to the fact Pabongka was using upaya in his criticizes , which also are claimed by the other side of the sectarian war.
I was reporting the views of others, for the third time.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:09 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:33 pm
The lens of sectarianism is problematic when projected onto what was going on during the Kamakura period.
First of all, you have no idea how much Buddhist history I have studied, including Japanese Buddhist history.

Second of all, sectarianism is sectarianism. It is not problematical at all to observe it in Kamakura Buddhism. Dogen was also sectarian, pretty firmly so. It's par for the course for people who are invested in their own ideology or someone else's to be sectarian.

So let's not be naive and pretend that sectarianism isn't rife in Buddhism, everywhere.
You'll have to pardon me. Your obtuse exchanges on Ekayana understood in East Asia going on in other sub-forums at present, a pretty important topic in Japanese Buddhism, give me reason to suspect your studies are limited.

Naivety has nothing to do with it. "Sectarianism" is a loaded term, and not even a Japanese term, and so to talk about medieval Japanese Buddhism through the lens is problematic. We can disagree on that.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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