Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

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Minobu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Minobu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:10 pm
Minobu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:17 pm

i still am hoping for malcolm's sake thats all bullshit and he can give us a definitive source to the fact Pabongka was using upaya in his criticizes , which also are claimed by the other side of the sectarian war.
I was reporting the views of others, for the third time.
well i think thats unfair to do that in this sectarian war you back...just saying..
better to spend your time trying to develop bodhicitta instead instead of necromancing sectarian wars.

the whole point of ignoring these wars is that by keeping them up online or wherever you damage yourself and bring others down to this level of hatred.

does not matter who is right or wrong...it's what you think is right and get on with what ever practice you do...

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:38 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:27 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:09 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:33 pm
The lens of sectarianism is problematic when projected onto what was going on during the Kamakura period.
First of all, you have no idea how much Buddhist history I have studied, including Japanese Buddhist history.

Second of all, sectarianism is sectarianism. It is not problematical at all to observe it in Kamakura Buddhism. Dogen was also sectarian, pretty firmly so. It's par for the course for people who are invested in their own ideology or someone else's to be sectarian.

So let's not be naive and pretend that sectarianism isn't rife in Buddhism, everywhere.
You'll have to pardon me. Your obtuse exchanges on Ekayana understood in East Asia going on in other sub-forums at present, a pretty important topic in Japanese Buddhism, give me reason to suspect your studies are limited.
You can think whatever you like. It has nothing to with reality.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:44 pm

Malcolm wrote: You love flinging the critique that has zero calories since you never back your shit up. But you should take that to the other thread, since you are the expert.
LOL. Zero calories? Pot, meet kettle.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:51 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:44 pm
Malcolm wrote: You love flinging the critique that has zero calories since you never back your shit up. But you should take that to the other thread, since you are the expert.
LOL. Zero calories? Pot, meet kettle.
Yup, tastes great, less filling. From my point of view, the Kamakura period was a period of intense sectarian conflict in Japanese Buddhism, perhaps a reflection of social conditions, but sectarian nevertheless.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:47 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:30 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:10 pm
Minobu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:17 pm

i still am hoping for malcolm's sake thats all bullshit and he can give us a definitive source to the fact Pabongka was using upaya in his criticizes , which also are claimed by the other side of the sectarian war.
I was reporting the views of others, for the third time.
well i think thats unfair to do that in this sectarian war you back...just saying..
You can think whatever you like, friend. I am not in your brain pulling the strings.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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rory
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by rory » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:31 am

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:11 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:35 pm
I just want to make clear, he had no sectarian perspective when he was making his criticisms because he had no sect.

Oh, come on. Of course he had a sectarian perspective, he was raised and educated in the Tendai tradition. It is pretty hard to read Risshōankokuron and not be surprised by the bile Nichiren expresses towards Honen's Jodo Shu.

He would have been appalled at Tibetan Buddhism.
Malcolm, with respect, I have reason to doubt you have a broad based understanding of the controversies that were current at the time. Nichiren's criticism actually can be read in the context of other critiques of Honen coming not only from Tendai circles, but other sects such as Shingon and Kegon, as well. Honen didn't intentionally establish a sect either.

The lens of sectarianism is problematic when projected onto what was going on during the Kamakura period.
This is why I don't bother to argue with either Malcolm or DGA they don't know Tiantai/Tendai philosophy and repeatedly refuse to learn any Japanese intellectual history.
Since at least 2000 it's been understood in the academic community that there were no 'sects' in the Kamakura era, rather it was like a college faculties, departments: with monks studying first Avatamsaka philosophy, then Hosso philosophy, then Shingon, then Tiantai etc... some specializing and the big temples and Imperial recognition were the big deal. I've just finished reading a fascinating dissertation on Dohan: a great Shingon monk and reviver of Mt. Koya circa Honen's era. Dohan's great teacher was Johen a Tiantai monk and Dohan himself hung around with Pure Land hijiri (wondering monks) who lived on Mt. Koya. Dohan wrote all kinds of treatises on esoteric Nembutsu, trying to fuse the great and popular Pure Land with Kukai and Shingon.
Making anything sectarian from that period is absurd and shows the arguers fatal ignorance. That Malcolm doesn't even give links for his own assertions about Gelug sectarianism, just throws everything he wishes to assert in a dubious light.

Nichren's rhetoric was the norm for his day. Monks came down and destroyed Honen's tomb. To cast modern day assumptions onto past behaviour with no reference to past context is called Presentism, and historians warn against it.

gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

marting
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by marting » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:56 am

This is why I don't bother to argue with either Malcolm or DGA they don't know Tiantai/Tendai philosophy and repeatedly refuse to learn any Japanese intellectual history.
Since at least 2000 it's been understood in the academic community that there were no 'sects' in the Kamakura era, rather it was like a college faculties, departments: with monks studying first Avatamsaka philosophy, then Hosso philosophy, then Shingon, then Tiantai etc... some specializing and the big temples and Imperial recognition were the big deal. I've just finished reading a fascinating dissertation on Dohan: a great Shingon monk and reviver of Mt. Koya circa Honen's era. Dohan's great teacher was Johen a Tiantai monk and Dohan himself hung around with Pure Land hijiri (wondering monks) who lived on Mt. Koya. Dohan wrote all kinds of treatises on esoteric Nembutsu, trying to fuse the great and popular Pure Land with Kukai and Shingon.
Making anything sectarian from that period is absurd and shows the arguers fatal ignorance. That Malcolm doesn't even give links for his own assertions about Gelug sectarianism, just throws everything he wishes to assert in a dubious light.

Nichren's rhetoric was the norm for his day. Monks came down and destroyed Honen's tomb. To cast modern day assumptions onto past behaviour with no reference to past context is called Presentism, and historians warn against it.

gassho
Rory
Is the Dohan dissertation accessible online? Definitely sounds fascinating.

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rory
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by rory » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:40 am

marting wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:56 am
This is why I don't bother to argue with either Malcolm or DGA they don't know Tiantai/Tendai philosophy and repeatedly refuse to learn any Japanese intellectual history.
Since at least 2000 it's been understood in the academic community that there were no 'sects' in the Kamakura era, rather it was like a college faculties, departments: with monks studying first Avatamsaka philosophy, then Hosso philosophy, then Shingon, then Tiantai etc... some specializing and the big temples and Imperial recognition were the big deal. I've just finished reading a fascinating dissertation on Dohan: a great Shingon monk and reviver of Mt. Koya circa Honen's era. Dohan's great teacher was Johen a Tiantai monk and Dohan himself hung around with Pure Land hijiri (wondering monks) who lived on Mt. Koya. Dohan wrote all kinds of treatises on esoteric Nembutsu, trying to fuse the great and popular Pure Land with Kukai and Shingon.
Making anything sectarian from that period is absurd and shows the arguers fatal ignorance. That Malcolm doesn't even give links for his own assertions about Gelug sectarianism, just throws everything he wishes to assert in a dubious light.

Nichren's rhetoric was the norm for his day. Monks came down and destroyed Honen's tomb. To cast modern day assumptions onto past behaviour with no reference to past context is called Presentism, and historians warn against it.

gassho
Rory
Is the Dohan dissertation accessible online? Definitely sounds fascinating.
Sure just gave the link to download! here it is, this would be very interesting to discuss.
https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/handle/2027.42/111511
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Minobu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Minobu » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:10 pm


I was reporting the views of others, for the third time.
if you review the thread this is the first time not the third

you seem to be confused and adversarial
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:47 pm


You can think whatever you like, friend. I am not in your brain pulling the strings.
just a bit on the Kamakura times .

It was like a renaissance for Buddhism in Japan .
You can either view you it with negativity and seek such, or you can see the sheer beauty of the human condition and Buddhism bursting forth on several stages .

i think people who focus their energy on sectarian infighting instead of True Buddhist Practice will find them selves in that corner of the room where darkness of all sorts looms.

A lesson to be feared .

watch how those strings are being pulled here in malcolm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:51 pm

Yup, tastes great, less filling. From my point of view, the Kamakura period was a period of intense sectarian conflict in Japanese Buddhism, perhaps a reflection of social conditions, but sectarian nevertheless.
so much came out of that relatively short period that still reverberates on the planet today.

still so much to reflect upon.

malcolm i wish that you would focus on the actual study material .

you brought up the Rissho Ankoku Ron and the only comment on the piece was the word bile in reference to the writing material.

the piece holds up to today in your very country.

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Minobu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Minobu » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:49 pm

rory wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:31 am
That Malcolm doesn't even give links for his own assertions about Gelug sectarianism, just throws everything he wishes to assert in a dubious light.
We all have observed this fixation on sectarianism from malcolm . For me to see it spill over in this section where we practice as Lord Buddha laid out for us to practice in this degenerative time . The warnings are clearly there. there is a lesson here. People look to malcolm as a loppon and this sort of focus only harms the very mindstreams of his students with the lowest forms of human emotion.

The spill over blinds him to japanese history and the beauty of the teachings and the beauty of the debates that went on back then..all a Platform for us in the future to learn from ...
Nichren's rhetoric was the norm for his day. Monks came down and destroyed Honen's tomb.
And what of today in these degenerative times...what do the degenerative dharmas produce in people.

To cast modern day assumptions onto past behaviour with no reference to past context is called Presentism, and historians warn against it.

gassho
Rory

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:19 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:24 pm


the piece holds up to today in your very country.
How is it relevant to the US?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Minobu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Minobu » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:19 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:24 pm


the piece holds up to today in your very country.
How is it relevant to the US?
well first up read the R A R ....

but to give you an idea of where i am coming from.

The piece shows when a government and it's people follow false teachings the people and the land suffers.

Trumpism is destroying your country from within.

But as you very well know this started well before the election.

it's a simple view about being out of sync with reality. How the USA government views the ultimate reality might be a little off..yes/no ?

In this degenerative age Buddhist practice can most effectively heal that sync.

putting your trust in God instead of yourselves eh ?

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:29 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:26 pm

The piece shows when a government and it's people follow false teachings the people and the land suffers.
Which false teaching would that be?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:29 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:26 pm

The piece shows when a government and it's people follow false teachings the people and the land suffers.
Which false teaching would that be?
Art of the Deal. A classic from the 80s AD.

川普子交易法, Master Chuānpǔ's Deal Art. Based on a wicked chain of eleven postulated dharmāḥ:

1. THINK BIG
2. GET WORD OUT
3. BOOST LOCATION
4. CONTAIN COSTS
5. FIGHT BACK
6. KNOW MARKET
7. BE FLEXIBLE
8. REMOVE RISK
9. USE LEVERAGE
10. DELIVER GOODS
11. HAVE FUN
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
佛子。如來智慧。無相智慧。無閡智慧。具足在於眾生身中。但愚癡眾生顛倒想覆。不知不見不生信心。
O, sons and daughters. The Thus-Gone's wisdom. The signless wisdom. The unobstructed wisdom. It perfectly dwells within all sentient beings’ minds. Yet in ignorance, sentient beings err and think it covered. Not knowing, not seeing, not giving rise to faith.
Āryamaitreyanāthasyottarekayānaratnagotraśāstra T1611.827b20

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:13 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:09 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:29 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:26 pm

The piece shows when a government and it's people follow false teachings the people and the land suffers.
Which false teaching would that be?
Art of the Deal.
good one. :bow:
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

marting
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by marting » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:54 pm

Jesus Christ, more fever sufferers...

*Hastily looks for an exit*

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Minobu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Minobu » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:29 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:26 pm

The piece shows when a government and it's people follow false teachings the people and the land suffers.
Which false teaching would that be?
Generally speaking i feel at this stage of my life to always be careful when addressing people that are prone to sectarianism. Even those with the best of intentions are mired in the lower human emotions and dwell on the past. Which is like a dream within a dream about morning dew.

Not just USa but many of the western countries cling to the Abrahamic God in their prays for their country.

what you think malcolm ? false teaching or accurate ...is it actually aiding the populace in their liberation, or is it like a collar around their necks to keep them in servitude through fear and false hope?

God the creator pretty much was a paradigm created after agriculture was introduced into the human evolution. It's divine right to place a crown on a king or queen and grant absolute power to persons I first learned about here...it's university study material..

In any case i've long gone the way of the Dodo when it comes to facilitating fanatical teachers and sects in Buddhism.

i would not understand Buddhism in the way i do if it wasn't for study of other forms of Buddhist thought. Tibetan has been considered a complete buddhism for it contains many aspects of practice. It suited me well in coming to terms with what Nichiren Shonin also studied.

I brought up Kundalini once and you slammed it down saying, rough idea of the quote here, there is no kundalini practice in Nichiren's Teaching.

Well The Sun and Moon gods are depicted on The gohonzon which resembles the Three Channels. 'nuff' said eh!

So i would never have come to that conclusion without study and practice from other schools of thought..Even though i see Nichiren discussing this in very poetic terms and could never actually show in writing what i believe is there in writing...far to hidden and secret in nature and not for everyone.

Getting back to your question.

If our governments would just stop the whole God Bless our countries paradigm that in and of itself would help big time..do you agree?

do you see God the Creator as a false teaching, something made up and not real . something to control populace?


edit:do you see God

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Malcolm
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:59 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:39 pm

do you see God the Creator as a false teaching, something made up and not real . something to control populace?
It's erroneous but I also don't think that people picking up the banner of Buddhism will help anything at all.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Minobu
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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by Minobu » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:59 pm
Minobu wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:39 pm

do you see God the Creator as a false teaching, something made up and not real . something to control populace?
It's erroneous but I also don't think that people picking up the banner of Buddhism will help anything at all.
interesting summary
it could lead people to believe that you are above Buddhism.

i've tried to get you to explain your belief on how The Lotus Sutra came about...you left even less to the written hand. lol..

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Re: Is NMRK the definitive Buddhist path?

Post by DGA » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:39 am

Minobu wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:49 pm

And what of today in these degenerative times...what do the degenerative dharmas produce in people.
Do you mean that as a rhetorical question, or would you like an unvarnished answer?

To cast modern day assumptions onto past behaviour with no reference to past context is called Presentism, and historians warn against it.
On this point ^^^ rory is 100% correct. More on that later.

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