Mind

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Minobu
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Mind

Post by Minobu » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:14 pm

ok a few days ago i posted this.....
Minobu wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:37 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:59 pm
It is wondrous that the mind can manifest like this and offer a means of encountering the teacher.
I only have a vague fuzzy feeling as to this ......
there are times when I feel like I have a teacher / guru...and at other times it's like the Lotus Sutra is that and Nichiren's works are just that...
His works have been imbued into reality through the Lotus Sutra's Buddhism.

fuzzy very fuzzy...for He never , as far as I know, talked of such...except that he was adamant somewhere that He would never return ...again fuzzy very fuzzy...no need to return physical if you are sort of Sambhogakaya Dharmakaya ????

ok so i'm have a fuzzy senior moment in Buddhism...what are firends for if not to get me through it... :tongue:
Been doing a lot of work (=practice Odaimoku mix with Bodhisattva Akasagarbha/ Kokūzō Bosatsu 虚空蔵菩薩 =oṃ vajra ratna oṃ trāḥ svāhā
The Japanese pronunciation of this mantra is:
om bazara aratanno om taraku sowaka)

So like i am now actually understanding that it is all ...for lack of better in depth word>>>> mind.

it's ?our? mind ...gohonzon and all those powerful characteristics depicted with the use of characters and the names for deities and Buddhist gods...are aspects of our mind....

shape the mind shape the enviroment..develop the mind of compassion...infuse the enviroment with compassion...

somehow our deepest desires can get answered in reality through practice...the Gakki knew and understood this and capitalized on it...which isn't a bad thing in and of itself for it's all a learning experience...and an experience to bring us closer to the actual path and understanding what we are...

and how powerful we actually are..

ok friends >>> work in progress....not finished yet...just letting you in on ,where this ole mad bugger banging against the his wall is at.

love to all...

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Minobu
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Re: Mind

Post by Minobu » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:36 pm

As far as the chanting of Om Vajra Ratna Om Trah Svaha is concerned...

i do not do that to gohonzon...it's more of a private practice both out loud and then silently like a TM mantra....

i now understand those very energies and possibilities are part and parcel to everything ...or more aptly ?inside? us.

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Re: Mind

Post by DGA » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:45 pm

Super interesting and important topic.

For the purposes of this discussion and this subforum, what is meant by "mind"? What concept or concepts in Nichiren's teaching is translated with the English term, mind?

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Minobu
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Re: Mind

Post by Minobu » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:06 pm

DGA wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:45 pm
Super interesting and important topic.

For the purposes of this discussion and this subforum, what is meant by "mind"? What concept or concepts in Nichiren's teaching is translated with the English term, mind?
notice i used an artistic liscence when i typed ?mind? / ?inside? and i typed ..
.for lack of better in depth word>>>> mind.

it's ?our? mind .
We have discussed the fact no one here can actually type for me what is enlightenment or what buddha means..let alone Tathagatagarbha

.i have given up hope of articulating it...in fact i am a crossroads where even trying to intellectualize these concepts is a hindrance...

Nichiren Shonin and all Those Bodhisattvas and Masters that went the route of Leaving Lotus Buddhism for the degenerative age did not either...

it is always a means of pointing you in the direction where you can ?get in touch? / ?activate? / generate ?our ? ?Buddha Nature?

This is something that is coming about >to me ...
so i apologize if i leave the intellectualization of it for others.

something i TOOK from you..AND LEFT THE REST TO JUST .....WELL...WHATEVER
DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:24 pm
It's an intellectual discussion, and so long as it remains at that level, then it will inevitably be contradictory and confusing.
but like all things i read here...i let it develope into my journey and it pushes forth along with the other weeds of my mind....
AAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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Re: Mind

Post by DGA » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:44 pm

Hi Minobu,

I'm here to learn. That's why I asked the question.

If I have caused offense, I apologize.

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Re: Mind

Post by narhwal90 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:48 am

Though I don't have doctrinal support ready to hand, Nichiren tends to follow Zhiyi & Saicho, so I would expect him to accept fairly orthodox Tendai interpretation but reformulated to exhibit the concepts as subordinate to the Lotus Sutra, perhaps as expedient teachings, perhaps in terms of ichinen sanzen.

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Minobu
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Re: Mind

Post by Minobu » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:01 am

DGA wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:44 pm
Hi Minobu,

I'm here to learn. That's why I asked the question.

If I have caused offense, I apologize.
it behooves me how you possibly could determine any need for apology...i don't see why this is even on the radar...unless of course you read into me post off yours as something sarcastic ...it isn't at all...it's kinda of a whole other way of trying to communicate something though...i tried to say that ...

so this leaves me with I see this is where i see that you don't get me.

i explained my intuitive understanding on a whole other level than intellectually...

for i cannot articulate it intellectually.. .....but with others who actually practice Nichiren Shonin's teachings and Lotus buddhism...i tried to show something i see.

DGA wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:45 pm


For the purposes of this discussion and this subforum, what is meant by "mind"? What concept or concepts in Nichiren's teaching is translated with the English term, mind?
i avoided this direct answer for i don't know...and as i tried to say...have lost a lot of interest in trying to intellectualize Buddhism...

the maniacal laughter was to convey just that...

there are no direct kundalini teachings in Nichiren's writings and yet i see His reference here and there and the way He constructed Gohonzon...

It's not for all to see...and i guess nor is what i have to say ..

but i wanted it out there...for other people come here and read this forum who practice this Teaching and have told me personally via other forums and email...they get me...

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Re: Mind

Post by Grigoris » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:13 am

narhwal90 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:48 am
Though I don't have doctrinal support ready to hand, Nichiren tends to follow Zhiyi & Saicho, so I would expect him to accept fairly orthodox Tendai interpretation but reformulated to exhibit the concepts as subordinate to the Lotus Sutra, perhaps as expedient teachings, perhaps in terms of ichinen sanzen.
Hi narhwal. Could you please elaborate, or point to something simple/brief, that outlines how mind is defined in Tendai and Nichiren?

Maybe it will help Minobu understand what is meant by mind in Nichiren's teachings as well as helping me. :smile:

Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

narhwal90
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Re: Mind

Post by narhwal90 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:03 pm

Well I'll give it a try- playing here on DW is like bringing a knife to a gunfight sometimes... I'll start out by noting I'm coming into this from a Nichiren standpoint, I am not yet aware of variations of ichinen sanzen within the wider Tendai community. I don't think Nichiren is idiosyncratic, a simple google search shows substantial agreement between SGI, NST and Tendai though there may be disagreement in some of the more subtle details.

In summary, "ichinen sanzen" is T’ien-t’ai s doctrine of 3000 worlds in one moment of thought. The 3000 is computed as follows;

10 Worlds
Hell, Hunger, Animality, Anger, Humanity, Heaven, Learning, Realization, Bodhisattva and Buddhahood - these describe a predominate state of existence

10 Factors
appearance, nature, entity, power, influence, internal cause, relation, latent effect, manifest effect and their consistency from beginning to end - these are the list seen at the end of the Lotus Sutra chapter 2 "Hoben"

3 Realms
five components (form, perception, conception, volition, and consciousness), realm of living beings, realm of the environment - three perspectives of existence of life



10 Worlds * 10 Worlds = 100 Each of the worlds is mutually possessed, thus buddhahood is also present in an angry person and so on; there is no state of existence that does not incorporate the others

100 * 10 Factors The mutually possessed 10 words all operate via the factors

1000 * 3 The mutually possessed 10 words, in operation, are incorporate in the 3 realms; not isolated from the environment, and more subtly, only seen in living beings which have conception, volition and so on. I think T’ien-t’ai would assert, yes, dogs have buddha nature too, but cat people may choose to disagree ;)

The point of ichinen sanzen is not to be used as an equation, but to use multiplication to reveal a pervasive principle. Accordingly, to be a living being means all the rest of it is indivisibly present. Various further deductions are available.

So, where/what is mind?

My take on it is that mind is ichinen sanzen in operation. The mind is seen equally in a raging alcoholic and a bodhisattva though the respective minds are doing very different things. The Nichiren practice (gohonzon, daimoku etc) is intended to clarify the individual's experience in it and influence progression toward increased expression of buddhahood.

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Re: Mind

Post by Minobu » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:05 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:10 am

What do you mean by mind in this context?
i have this glimpse through the methodology of this practice that these functions or gods or deities with their vast array of specific energies such as wisdom and compassion or healing is of this elusive thing we call mind...

Everything on Gohonzon is of mind and is taught that we must seek it inside.

By chanting the Odaimoku whilst focused on said characters on Gohonzon it actualizes these energies and abilities such as wisdom , compassion, healing ,purification....

this was my intent of this thread....please look at the first line and the quoted part at the very beginning....the word fuzzy is everywhere...







i tried to convey that" FOR ME" it does not seem to be able to articulated by anyone and most definitely cannot be articulated intellectually.(for me that is....i tried to convey this throughout the thread)

maybe you can tell us what mind actually is...for discussion upon discussion upon discussion is endless both here at DW and elsewhere, and elsewhere ad nauseum.

hence my use of this little gem.
DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:24 pm
It's an intellectual discussion, and so long as it remains at that level, then it will inevitably be contradictory and confusing.
So i tried to play with words and a few of these ?????

i thought the maniacal laughter would be another clue in this picturesque way of explaining something that even the Buddha did not directly define in plain words...

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Re: Mind

Post by Queequeg » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:00 pm

DGA wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:45 pm


For the purposes of this discussion and this subforum, what is meant by "mind"?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: Mind

Post by Grigoris » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:17 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:03 pm
My take on it is that mind is ichinen sanzen in operation. The mind is seen equally in a raging alcoholic and a bodhisattva though the respective minds are doing very different things. The Nichiren practice (gohonzon, daimoku etc) is intended to clarify the individual's experience in it and influence progression toward increased expression of buddhahood.
Okay, in which case mind is like the Alaya Vijnana in the eight consciousness model: A receptacle of all states.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Mind

Post by Queequeg » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:17 pm

In East Asia, they relate it to the Amalavijnana which I understand is a development either in China or along the silk road... Not found in traditional yogacara.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: Mind

Post by Malcolm » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:33 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:17 pm
In East Asia, they relate it to the Amalavijnana which I understand is a development either in China or along the silk road... Not found in traditional yogacara.
The so-called amalavijñāna is the innovation of the Indian monk, Paramārtha. Sally B. King's Buddhanature discusses this in some detail.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Mind

Post by DGA » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:21 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:05 pm

hence my use of this little gem.
DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:24 pm
It's an intellectual discussion, and so long as it remains at that level, then it will inevitably be contradictory and confusing.
So i tried to play with words and a few of these ?????

i thought the maniacal laughter would be another clue in this picturesque way of explaining something that even the Buddha did not directly define in plain words...
That bon mot that you quoted came from a thread that was, indeed, only an intellectual discussion. Specifically, it was an analysis of a mediocre work of scholarship that (in my opinion) gets much too much oxygen at DW.

This discussion is about something that came up in practice, if I understand the OP correctly. The stakes are different. That's why I'm trying to understand what you mean when you describe your experience.

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Re: Mind

Post by narhwal90 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:28 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:17 pm
narhwal90 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:03 pm
My take on it is that mind is ichinen sanzen in operation. The mind is seen equally in a raging alcoholic and a bodhisattva though the respective minds are doing very different things. The Nichiren practice (gohonzon, daimoku etc) is intended to clarify the individual's experience in it and influence progression toward increased expression of buddhahood.
Okay, in which case mind is like the Alaya Vijnana in the eight consciousness model: A receptacle of all states.
I could see the 8-consciousness model as expanding on the consciousness-related elements of the equation & related dynamics but I would not think it a correlate- ichinen sanzen incorporates several non-consciousness elements.

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Minobu
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Re: Mind

Post by Minobu » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:13 pm

DGA wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:21 pm


That bon mot that you quoted came from a thread that was, indeed, only an intellectual discussion. Specifically, it was an analysis of a mediocre work of scholarship that (in my opinion) gets much too much oxygen at DW.
yeah well i liked the line and used it thus :
but like all things i read here...i let it develope into my journey and it pushes forth along with the other weeds of my mind....
DGA wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:21 pm
This discussion is about something that came up in practice, if I understand the OP correctly. The stakes are different. That's why I'm trying to understand what you mean when you describe your experience.
Exactumundo , thank you kindly..

the understanding is the thing eh....
it's more of an experience ....the things i describe such as compassion, healing, wisdom and other attributes of the Bodhisattvas and gods are not primordial/ essence mind but something produced ...yes no ????

But it still is all mind based...

i'll leave it at that ....mind based....again intellectualizing and articulating is not my forte and it seems no one can nail "HER" down anyway ...so here we are then...in a minobu thread...hope it helps
àáâäæãåāhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha



now believe it or not this is my favourite video and song ...maybe just maybe you take the time to view a bit of it..... and ........i guarantee you shall see ......let your intuition fly DGA..
with Big Love


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Minobu
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Re: Mind

Post by Minobu » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:57 am

you might find my previous post odd or just flippant...mary poppins and all...

I'm trying to convey to you a view here...
the paper and string you can do almost anything...

thats the material one is...the body the environment

lyric to Let's go fly a kite
With tuppence for paper and strings
You can have your own set of wings
With your feet on the ground
You're a bird in flight
With your fist holding tight
To the string of your kite
so we are in this reality...it's incredible...it's wondrous...every moment a miracle....

all from mind...
and with the help of a master such as Nichiren Shonin you can understand this in so many ways depending on the individual...

ok i'm pushing here...please try not to make fun...


With tuppence for paper and strings> your tuppance is your karma
You can have your own set of wings> you get the human form


With your feet on the ground
You're a bird in flight
With your fist holding tight
To the string of your kite

i see this as once you understand it is all mind and there are powers beyond your wildest dreams if you see it as mind and work with the practice to develop...

if you listen to the video it should make you quite happy...and if you think of it as life itself and what can be done....it shrieks happiness...


I'm so happy since it came to me....the wonder of life...the beauty of it all....

there's no room for hurting one another...for the fact you can utilize this mind and help yourself and others is that feeling of a kid flying a kite...

i actually listen to this song quite regularly .....


mind....it's all mind...


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Minobu
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Re: Mind

Post by Minobu » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:52 pm

ok well that was well...not for the faint of heart lol...
it's a very abstract way of trying to define my experience. Overboard for a reason that maybe only i see. but i think if you read it ,it might eventually make sense down the line.

but know this. It was done from devotion to this practice and my compassion for all who practice this form of Buddhism.

One does not need to know how gohonzon works , or why it works . But it does help when one gets an insight to what we are doing.

The thread is trying to convey that each and every function of each and every character on Gohonzon is a function of this thing we call mind.

i don't fully understand "Mind only School" but the header is enough for me to mention it to you all.

some argue it's not enough others say it misses the mark....

when i said no one has nailed down "Mind" ..it's not a knock to those that teach about it...it's a reference to the fact so many people over thousands of years have tried to explain and nail it down....

If one reads the various schools of thought on the matter one gets an idea , or a feeling , or an inclination of what they are teaching.

Thats probably the protection of Buddha's gods and dharma protectors .

So seek the Gohonzon inside...the edict handed down by our master...we all know this...but do we trust in it...in times of desperation do we put it aside in order to beg for help and wish our time away...

This practice is a hard one ....it not only is hard to use it to better our lives and grow in dharma understanding ....it seems to stir up unwanted hardship in the form of Karmic weirdness...

the important thing i have come to realize is that it is all you.....and only you can help yourself....you have been given the Gohonzon and a practice that will lead you to liberation for yourself and help others as well .

So i am not able to give you the words to what is mind...

that was not the point of thread...

I can assure you that all these functions on Gohonzon are innate in everything ...how much more apt that they are in you as a human being...


the work continues....
Big Love to all



p.s. if i sound condescending to the more senior members ..i did not mean to ...

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Re: Mind

Post by Grigoris » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:06 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:28 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:17 pm
narhwal90 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:03 pm
My take on it is that mind is ichinen sanzen in operation. The mind is seen equally in a raging alcoholic and a bodhisattva though the respective minds are doing very different things. The Nichiren practice (gohonzon, daimoku etc) is intended to clarify the individual's experience in it and influence progression toward increased expression of buddhahood.
Okay, in which case mind is like the Alaya Vijnana in the eight consciousness model: A receptacle of all states.
I could see the 8-consciousness model as expanding on the consciousness-related elements of the equation & related dynamics but I would not think it a correlate- ichinen sanzen incorporates several non-consciousness elements.
So it seems. It is almost like a type of condensed Abhidharma.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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