Who/what is the Original Buddha? Split from En-no-gyoja

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Minobu
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Who/what is the Original Buddha? Split from En-no-gyoja

Post by Minobu » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:01 pm

So in referring to the entire post .... is this part and parcel to Nichiren shoshu decided to refer to Nichiren shonin as the True Buddha/The Buddha of Kuon ganjo/the Original Buddha ? i just see a correlation to your post and why they did it.

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:53 pm
original Buddha who is of one mind and one thought".
this is interesting...
The Tathagata again preached in a verse, saying,

The supreme path of all Buddhas
Has the marks of perfect light and eternal abiding.
Those who enter meditative concentration together with [the Buddha]
In the same way realized the mind of enlightenment [bodhicitta].

When the Buddha finished preaching these verses, the great monks in the assembly at once stood up, bowed, and went on their way.
is this not what we do when we chant With gohonzon?

As you know i have huge problems with Original enlightenment..

but this...
THIS!!!!!
The World-Honored-One replied, “Mahavairocana on the stage of wonderful enlightenment received the preaching of the Dharma from the beginningless and endless original Buddha who is of one mind and one thought.”



The World-Honored-One again said, “There is no Buddha above and beyond the ‘original Buddha of no mind and no thought.’ There is no Buddha below and no Buddha after no mind and no thought.’ The original Buddha is in essence beyond conceptual understanding. From the beginning he/it does not go nor come, does not have the nature of the threefold body, does not have the nature of the ten destinies [from hell to Buddhahood.]


The World-Honored-One again said, “The original Buddha of no mind and no thought is by nature beyond conceptual understanding. Both the conceptually understood natures of the threefold body and sentient beings in the ten destinies, and the nature of that which is without a nature, arise from the nature that is beyond conceptual understanding.”


The World-Honored-One again said, “There is nothing that teaches or receives above and beyond the original Buddha of no mind and no thought. Moreover, this is a single Buddha, and there are not two Buddhas. You all should shut your eyes and contemplate the original Buddha that is without beginning and without end.”

this is making me see something..
The original Buddha of no mind and no thought is by nature beyond conceptual understanding.
and
from the beginning he/it does not go nor come, does not have the nature of the threefold body
it's not like a common mortal eventually attaining buddhahood. it's something entirely different...something not born from or in samsara.


anyway ...what does this remind you of eh?
does not have the nature of the ten destinies [from hell to Buddhahood.]

that between the parentheses [from hell to Buddhahood.] is that your interpretation or is this in the sutra...?
in any case where does the ten destinies get that meaning?


the whole japanese kamakura and then this stuff....what a watershed eh...it truly is marvelous what all came together...pure dharma..

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Queequeg
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Re: En-no-gyoja

Post by Queequeg » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:36 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:01 pm
So in referring to the entire post .... is this part and parcel to Nichiren shoshu decided to refer to Nichiren shonin as the True Buddha/The Buddha of Kuon ganjo/the Original Buddha ? i just see a correlation to your post and why they did it.
As far as I know, this text has no direct connection to Nichiren. Its a text from the Shugendo traditions. To the extent that it might have some bearing on Nichiren, it would be in a very general way in that Shugendo is something that has been going on in the background of Japanese Buddhism since the earliest days. Its arguable that its ethos and ideas have exerted an influence on and reflected currents in Japanese Buddhism generally.
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:53 pm
original Buddha who is of one mind and one thought".
this is interesting...
The Tathagata again preached in a verse, saying,

The supreme path of all Buddhas
Has the marks of perfect light and eternal abiding.
Those who enter meditative concentration together with [the Buddha]
In the same way realized the mind of enlightenment [bodhicitta].

When the Buddha finished preaching these verses, the great monks in the assembly at once stood up, bowed, and went on their way.
is this not what we do when we chant With gohonzon?
This is what happens in many Japanese Buddhist practices. That's the influence of tantra.
As you know i have huge problems with Original enlightenment..

but this...
THIS!!!!!
The World-Honored-One replied, “Mahavairocana on the stage of wonderful enlightenment received the preaching of the Dharma from the beginningless and endless original Buddha who is of one mind and one thought.”



The World-Honored-One again said, “There is no Buddha above and beyond the ‘original Buddha of no mind and no thought.’ There is no Buddha below and no Buddha after no mind and no thought.’ The original Buddha is in essence beyond conceptual understanding. From the beginning he/it does not go nor come, does not have the nature of the threefold body, does not have the nature of the ten destinies [from hell to Buddhahood.]


The World-Honored-One again said, “The original Buddha of no mind and no thought is by nature beyond conceptual understanding. Both the conceptually understood natures of the threefold body and sentient beings in the ten destinies, and the nature of that which is without a nature, arise from the nature that is beyond conceptual understanding.”


The World-Honored-One again said, “There is nothing that teaches or receives above and beyond the original Buddha of no mind and no thought. Moreover, this is a single Buddha, and there are not two Buddhas. You all should shut your eyes and contemplate the original Buddha that is without beginning and without end.”

this is making me see something..
The original Buddha of no mind and no thought is by nature beyond conceptual understanding.
and
from the beginning he/it does not go nor come, does not have the nature of the threefold body
it's not like a common mortal eventually attaining buddhahood. it's something entirely different...something not born from or in samsara.


anyway ...what does this remind you of eh?
I mentioned above, I have reservations about the substance of this text. This is a dicey proposition. I'm not sure its Buddhism. It certainly takes a very explicit position on Original Enlightenment, and one that might be helpful in looking at Japanese Buddhism. That's as far as I will go on this.
does not have the nature of the ten destinies [from hell to Buddhahood.]

that between the parentheses [from hell to Buddhahood.] is that your interpretation or is this in the sutra...?
in any case where does the ten destinies get that meaning?
No, that's Swanson's (translator's) insertion. The ten destinies is a reference to the ten realms from hell to Buddhahood.
the whole japanese kamakura and then this stuff....what a watershed eh...it truly is marvelous what all came together...pure dharma..
Maybe... :shrug:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Minobu
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Re: En-no-gyoja

Post by Minobu » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:07 pm

Well it all comes out in the wash eh !

So this actually sparked a glimpse into the whole original enlightenment thing for me...i know i know...what a pain in the ass eh...
but this time it's more closer to it actually being a Thing ...that there is a Primordial Buddha and that Buddha is like a thing like maybe Myoho Renge Kyo,,the primordial dharma of Original Enlightenment. not really a thing...thing !bad!...bad word to use...but you get my gist hopefully.

Q !!!! just think of it! the Primordial Buddha is MyoHo Renge Kyo...
so like i know a lot of people believe Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is the Primordial Buddha...i don;t think so.. He is part of a long line of these Special Buddhas Whom Lord Buddha Maitreya is as He sits on a Throne holding a Crown . and one day will be the Key as is Lord Buddha Sakyamuni now.

The painstaking long diatribe in the Lotus sutra about exactly when Lord Sakyamuni first attained Buddhahood in the past is a finite amount of time...for sure it gives a glimpse into how long He has been a Buddha but He did say it wasn't under the Bodhi Tree but...and went on and on and on...

still this is just a speck in time as to how old samsara really is...So i think if Buddha wanted us to know He is the Primordial Buddha he would have not told us that diatribe mentioned.

And it would toss out His Attaining Buddhahood for He would be the Primordial Soup .....


anyway as always Q i'm indebted to you for at least churning out thought on the matter at hand...one day eh ...one day...

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Queequeg
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Re: Who/what is the Original Buddha? Split from En-no-gyoja

Post by Queequeg » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:06 pm

The problem with identifying any "thing" with the Original Buddha is that the Original Buddha is not a "thing". If it is, then we have to make clear that we mean this only in a conventional sense. Otherwise, we're not discussing Buddhism and rather something else.

In the sutra I reproduced (here) The Original Buddha is identified as "no mind, no thought". I didn't reproduce Swanson's comments, but he suggested that this Original Buddha of No Mind and No Thought is jisso - True Aspect of Reality. The suggestion is that the beginningless and endless original Buddha that awakens, awakens by "hearing" the teaching of the True Aspect of Reality, in other words, coming to know reality as it is by observing reality.

I don't know if this is meant to be understood as some temporal event, or rather implies that the practitioner should likewise seek awakening by listening to the True Aspect of Reality.

As for identifying this myoho renge kyo with the True Aspect of Reality, that's probably partially true. It is also the wisdom (in the form of the Buddha) of the True Aspect, as well as the practice of it.

In other words, I don't think that sutra aligns particularly well with what Nichiren taught.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Malcolm
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Re: Who/what is the Original Buddha? Split from En-no-gyoja

Post by Malcolm » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:21 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:06 pm
The problem with identifying any "thing" with the Original Buddha is that the Original Buddha is not a "thing". If it is, then we have to make clear that we mean this only in a conventional sense. Otherwise, we're not discussing Buddhism and rather something else.

In the sutra I reproduced (here) The Original Buddha is identified as "no mind, no thought". I didn't reproduce Swanson's comments, but he suggested that this Original Buddha of No Mind and No Thought is jisso - True Aspect of Reality. The suggestion is that the beginningless and endless original Buddha that awakens, awakens by "hearing" the teaching of the True Aspect of Reality, in other words, coming to know reality as it is by observing reality.

I don't know if this is meant to be understood as some temporal event, or rather implies that the practitioner should likewise seek awakening by listening to the True Aspect of Reality.

As for identifying this myoho renge kyo with the True Aspect of Reality, that's probably partially true. It is also the wisdom (in the form of the Buddha) of the True Aspect, as well as the practice of it.

In other words, I don't think that sutra aligns particularly well with what Nichiren taught.
The term adibuddha in Sanskrit texts makes its first appearance in the Mañjuśrī-nāmasaṃgiti. The adibuddha is considered to be suchness.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Who/what is the Original Buddha? Split from En-no-gyoja

Post by Queequeg » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:04 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:21 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:06 pm
The problem with identifying any "thing" with the Original Buddha is that the Original Buddha is not a "thing". If it is, then we have to make clear that we mean this only in a conventional sense. Otherwise, we're not discussing Buddhism and rather something else.

In the sutra I reproduced (here) The Original Buddha is identified as "no mind, no thought". I didn't reproduce Swanson's comments, but he suggested that this Original Buddha of No Mind and No Thought is jisso - True Aspect of Reality. The suggestion is that the beginningless and endless original Buddha that awakens, awakens by "hearing" the teaching of the True Aspect of Reality, in other words, coming to know reality as it is by observing reality.

I don't know if this is meant to be understood as some temporal event, or rather implies that the practitioner should likewise seek awakening by listening to the True Aspect of Reality.

As for identifying this myoho renge kyo with the True Aspect of Reality, that's probably partially true. It is also the wisdom (in the form of the Buddha) of the True Aspect, as well as the practice of it.

In other words, I don't think that sutra aligns particularly well with what Nichiren taught.
The term adibuddha in Sanskrit texts makes its first appearance in the Mañjuśrī-nāmasaṃgiti. The adibuddha is considered to be suchness.
Interesting. Did you read that text I reproduced? Can you comment on it's message?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Minobu
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Re: Who/what is the Original Buddha? Split from En-no-gyoja

Post by Minobu » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:23 am

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:06 pm
The problem with identifying any "thing" with the Original Buddha is that the Original Buddha is not a "thing". If it is, then we have to make clear that we mean this only in a conventional sense. Otherwise, we're not discussing Buddhism and rather something else.
yes most important as to not misconstrue and cause someone to be misled.

I wrote
.that there is a Primordial Buddha and that Buddha is like a thing like maybe Myoho Renge Kyo,,the primordial dharma of Original Enlightenment. not really a thing...thing !bad!...bad word to use...but you get my gist hopefully.
that was very ineffective at pointing to what i want to....that the Primordial Buddha is something other in viewing the Buddha of the Trikaya ..i know Buddhas are "Primordial Buddha ..but Primordial Buddha was before samsaric Beings attained Buddhahood

...what sparked this this morning was this
The World-Honored-One replied, “Mahavairocana on the stage of wonderful enlightenment received the preaching of the Dharma from the beginningless and endless original Buddha who is of one mind and one thought.”



The World-Honored-One again said, “There is no Buddha above and beyond the ‘original Buddha of no mind and no thought.’ There is no Buddha below and no Buddha after no mind and no thought.’ The original Buddha is in essence beyond conceptual understanding. From the beginning he/it does not go nor come, does not have the nature of the threefold body, does not have the nature of the ten destinies [from hell to Buddhahood.]


The World-Honored-One again said, “The original Buddha of no mind and no thought is by nature beyond conceptual understanding. Both the conceptually understood natures of the threefold body and sentient beings in the ten destinies, and the nature of that which is without a nature, arise from the nature that is beyond conceptual understanding.”


The World-Honored-One again said, “There is nothing that teaches or receives above and beyond the original Buddha of no mind and no thought. Moreover, this is a single Buddha, and there are not two Buddhas. You all should shut your eyes and contemplate the original Buddha that is without beginning and without end.”
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:06 pm
In the sutra I reproduced (here) The Original Buddha is identified as "no mind, no thought". I didn't reproduce Swanson's comments, but he suggested that this Original Buddha of No Mind and No Thought is jisso - True Aspect of Reality. The suggestion is that the beginningless and endless original Buddha that awakens, awakens by "hearing" the teaching of the True Aspect of Reality, in other words, coming to know reality as it is by observing reality.

I don't know if this is meant to be understood as some temporal event, or rather implies that the practitioner should likewise seek awakening by listening to the True Aspect of Reality.

As for identifying this myoho renge kyo with the True Aspect of Reality, that's probably partially true. It is also the wisdom (in the form of the Buddha) of the True Aspect, as well as the practice of it.
ok so after i turned off the computer i wanted to post this.>>>.It's not so much that the Original buddha is Nam MyoHo Renge Kyo but NMRK is the dharma with which we use to accomplish this:
The Tathagata again preached in a verse, saying,

The supreme path of all Buddhas
Has the marks of perfect light and eternal abiding.
Those who enter meditative concentration together with [the Buddha]
In the same way realized the mind of enlightenment [bodhicitta].
It's both the dharma to accomplish just that and somehow at the same time the mind of the Original Buddha with which we "enter meditative concentration together with [the Buddha]
In the same way realized the mind of enlightenment.
"
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:06 pm
In other words, I don't think that sutra aligns particularly well with what Nichiren taught.
actually it does ...perfectly and lucidly if you take in account that this appeared for us to see, exactly what Nichiren Shonin knew and experienced, and wanted us to know when we we are ready to perceive and understand..

Voila the Key

i have been trying very hard to generate wisdom, with eyes closed ,this mantra "Om Vajra Ratna Om Trah Svaha " and also using the mantra in a TM meditative way as well ..
and then chanting to what is referred to the Ichinen sanzen Gohonzon ...for me it is the gohonzon to enter Both The Womb World Mandala and Diamond Realm Mandala ...

the use of ichinen sanzen ties together the actual experience and expresses the moment for a Nichiren and Ten Dai practitioner.

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Minobu
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Re: Who/what is the Original Buddha? Split from En-no-gyoja

Post by Minobu » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:12 pm

So i guess there is Original Enlightenment and the Primordial Buddha would be the first common mortal to realize this and become one with this and thereby go unto becoming a new form of Sentient Being we refer to as a Buddha.

and I guess they bring to that table of Sentients their own traits if you will.

Sort of a left over of what they were and did before attaining Buddhahood.

i say that due to the fact we talk of so many specialities and energies such as wisdom, compassion, healing various Bodhisattvas are known for.

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Re: Who/what is the Original Buddha? Split from En-no-gyoja

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat May 05, 2018 2:17 am

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:06 pm
In the sutra I reproduced (here) The Original Buddha is identified as "no mind, no thought".
No thought?

Neither from self, nor other, nor combination of self and other, nor eschewing causality. Neither coming, nor going. Etc.

Sounds like "no thought" to me. All possible thought-trajectories exhausted.

The auspicious cessation of hypostatization.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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