Shodaigyo

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Nyedrag Yeshe
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe » Thu May 10, 2018 7:54 pm

Here are Shodaigyo instructions as per Enkyoji Network, led by Kanjin Cederman Shonin. Anyone who is interested in delving more deeply into shodaigyo may also contact him on facebook, Sensei is a very accessible person. He also webcasts shodaigyo practice instructions on Facebook every month.
http://enkyojibuddhistnetwork.org/wp-co ... _Final.pdf
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id ... &ref=br_rs
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།

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Minobu
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Minobu » Fri May 11, 2018 5:07 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 7:14 pm

From Kanjin no Honzon Sho
The “Life Span” chapter reads, “It has been immeasurable, boundless hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of nayutas of kalpas since I in fact attained Buddhahood.” The Shakyamuni Buddha within our lives is the eternal Buddha since time without beginning, who obtained the three bodies more than numberless major world system dust particle kalpas ago.
There it is....
The Shakyamuni Buddha within our lives is the eternal Buddha since time without beginning, who obtained the three bodies more than numberless major world system dust particle kalpas ago.
what that means to me is thus....

The Historical Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is the Eternal Original Primordial Buddha one and the same as all Buddhas , who obtained the Three Bodies , and will obtain the Three Bodies in future.

The word ...word Sakyamuni Buddha in
The Shakyamuni Buddha within our lives is the eternal Buddha since time without beginning
is not necessarily only the historic buddha ?

a put a ? cause i'm trying to bend my mind around something here..the words who attained kalpas ago and beginingless time in and of themselves are not the same time frame.

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Minobu
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Minobu » Fri May 11, 2018 6:23 pm

grrrr i just read that mess of mine...the last post that is...
and.....



.


.



.

markatex
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by markatex » Fri May 11, 2018 11:40 pm

The “attained enlightenment innumerable kalpas ago” language is understood to convey eternity. Some will argue this point, but in our tradition, it signifies eternity. You might be reading it too literally.

markatex
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by markatex » Sat May 12, 2018 4:16 pm

Rev. Kanjin is great. I don’t know him well, but he co-led a retreat here in Texas several years ago that I went on and I’ve met him a couple of times since. He’s very accessible online if you’re far from a temple and are interested in Nichiren Shu.

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Minobu
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Minobu » Sat May 12, 2018 6:22 pm

markatex wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 11:40 pm
The “attained enlightenment innumerable kalpas ago” language is understood to convey eternity. Some will argue this point, but in our tradition, it signifies eternity. You might be reading it too literally.
ok so like .....here it is...

from what i read it tells me that 1 Lord sakyamuni was indeed a common mortal and jumped into a demon's mouth who he offered himself up to for one line of dharma.
2 Was a Bodhisattva who did the Bodhisattva thing in order to accumulate merit ...he did that for a very long time...and attained enlightenment a real long time ago
3 there are other Buddha's case in point as i type Buddha Maitrya is sitting on a throne and will come when there is so much war that the average age is 10...He shall bring a practice of morals and ethics...no meditation no tantra...

there were other big time buddhas like Buddha Maitreya and Buddha Sakyamuni...there is a number to their amount...

so like all this is brushed aside in order...
but in our tradition, it signifies eternity. You might be reading it too literally.
just like in other traditions they refer to Nichiren daishonin as the Primordial Buddha , or the Eternal Buddha ...or the Buddha of Kuon Ganjo...

Most Mahayana tradition debate on what exactly the Eternal Buddha is...Some would argue it is strictly speaking a Dharmakaya body ..as in Buddha MahaVairocana who is only dharmakaya body...

So i've said it ...i believe in The Eternal Buddha from which all common mortals eventually realize and purify themselves so as to be , for lack of a better use of words, one with ,and no disrespect for the use of "IT" .

"IT" is accessed through Lotus Buddhism in the degenerative age quite easily by chanting even one ODaimoku .

I think ignoring "the Language" or as you say, in your tradition one cannot read too literally ..... is it something similar to believing in the Dai gGhonzon or the Buddha of Kuon Ganjo ?...
I say similar only in the sense that one needs to jump through a hoop or not take literally a bunch of stuff written...in order to not take literraly some pretty plain in your face writings.
markatex wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 4:31 pm
The goal in chanting daimoku is “kanno dokyo,” where one approaches the Buddha with faith, and receives his enlightenment. Or something like that.
this is something i came to very early on in my introduction to this practice...my leaders thwarted it and said i should concentrate on president ikeda..

i thought i was just fantasizing ..and stopped any venture toward it even though incredible things were happening , like my father's bone marrow come back to life ....i knew gohonzon was not just inside me but part of my make up...was told no it's accessed from and is the scroll ...


no wonder i totally quit and was frustrated...

If there is anything i learned ..it is i no longer take for granted what people say...the sifter is in my hand at all times..

narhwal90
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by narhwal90 » Sat May 12, 2018 8:34 pm

Just got my copy of the Shodaigyo book today- very technical and interesting from the brief mailbox-to-kitchen-counter walk. That tri-fold brochure suggests a combined practice well aligned to my taste at the moment, looking forward to elaborations on it that the book may offer.

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Minobu
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Minobu » Sat May 12, 2018 10:58 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 8:34 pm
Just got my copy of the Shodaigyo book today- very technical and interesting from the brief mailbox-to-kitchen-counter walk. That tri-fold brochure suggests a combined practice well aligned to my taste at the moment, looking forward to elaborations on it that the book may offer.
I've always respected your ability to keep an open mind and to live true to your self.

even though you are loyal to the gakki you still keep an open mind...

if it wasn't for you i could not access the stuff you keep online for all people's to be able to see,,,,

i have not given much of my online time to take screen shots of all that you keep up...please let us know if you ever are going to let that go...

you truly are one of Nichiren's closest and loved students...

(said in my best Yoda Voice)
Image
"A true Bodhisattva of the earth this one is..hmm..yes ..."

whilst at the same time Yoda is thinking*This Minobu needs to get an offline life he does*

(Said in my not so good Count Dooku voice)
Image

"You sound like a suck up minobu!, why encourage him...best he should just give up everything"
:rolling:

narhwal90
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by narhwal90 » Sun May 13, 2018 2:33 pm

Regarding the coffeehouse, its doing fine hosted there, no plans to change that. The most popular page in the last month or so was

http://www.pounceatron.dreamhosters.com ... HowTo.html

Nichiren Shu shows up in the search report sometimes but most fetches seem to reach the site from the top level pages or the GonhonzonShu. The stats the hosting provider is spastic, no useful monthly summaries- just a week or so at the moment. It is quite interesting to watch the trends, particularly in operating system and browser counts. I would encourage all interested in the coffeehouse pages to download a copy of the zip file available here

http://www.pounceatron.dreamhosters.com ... house.net/

which contains the entire site in its current form, browseable when extracted- no internet needed, ads, tracking bugs, animations, links to dating sites and webrings etc are removed.


wrt Shodaigyo

I read the book and am grateful for the detail. The similarities and differences related to the old NSA/SGI practice forms are both interesting. I like the classical reliance on seiza, but am wondering if or where Nichiren Shu at least in the US has moved to chairs. I use seiza exclusively at home, and appreciate its continued use elsewhere. I really like the specific instructions on volume & cadence of the daimoku, on breath and posture. Where I practiced in the old days that sort of thing was taught anecdotally, less so nowadays. The book really wins when it discusses how to handle the mind during chanting, the desired focus and attitude when the discursive/dualized mind starts to quiet. The instructions for meditation pre & post daimoku are a bit brief OTOH they so cover the issues. I sure wish SGI would adopt something similar and make it part of the study rotation- I would welcome the occasional "technical" study meeting where the focus is on methods.

I like the N'Shu emphasis on Nichiren as Jogyo, with Sakyamuni as Buddha- an interpretation that seems to fit my reading of the gosho much better than the Fuji proposition. These are the surface perceptions from a 1st reading, I have not tried the specified practice yet, and a 2nd reading is certainly in order. I think shodaigyo would definitely benefit from listening to the webcasts instead of working exclusively on a DIY basis- the SGI practice is a lot simpler.

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Nyedrag Yeshe
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe » Mon May 14, 2018 4:58 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 8:34 pm
Just got my copy of the Shodaigyo book today- very technical and interesting from the brief mailbox-to-kitchen-counter walk. That tri-fold brochure suggests a combined practice well aligned to my taste at the moment, looking forward to elaborations on it that the book may offer.
If you contact Sensei and show real interest, try to join the shodaigyo and Enkyoji Network pages on facebook, there are beside the brochure there are also many videos with precious instructions. But try to present yourself to him and the moderators beforehand!
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།

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Queequeg
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Queequeg » Mon May 14, 2018 5:20 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 6:22 pm
is it something similar to believing in the Dai gGhonzon or the Buddha of Kuon Ganjo ?...
The Daigohonzon is purported to be a mandala inscribed by Nichiren and dedicated to humanity. Setting aside the question of whether the object is what it is purported to be, its supposed to be a mandala empowered with the vow to awaken all beings. If it is what it is purported to be, I don't think any Nichiren Buddhist would have a problem with it. The problem is, other than Shoshu and its offshoots, no one else accepts this claim. To others... well, without going into it, let's just say most others have a very cynical view about the motivations behind the creation of the Daigohonzon.

The Buddha of Kuon Ganjo (time without beginning) is contrasted with the language most other Nichiren sects use, Kuon Jitsujo (the inconceivably remote past, IIRC, language from the Lotus Sutra). Kuon Ganjo is just terminology to make clear that the Buddha of the Essential Section of the Lotus Sutra is eternally abiding, sidestepping the question that bothers you, whether the Buddha of the Essential Section of the Lotus Sutra attained awakening at certain point in time, albeit inconceivably long ago.

Nichiren emphasized ichinen sanzen. To understand his teaching, this is where we need to start.

Three Thousand Worlds in a Single Moment of Mind.

Three Thousand is a somewhat arbitrary number. Its just the number that comes from multiplying numbers from yet other ways to describe reality...

10 worlds - Hell, Preta, Animal, Asura, Human, Deva, Sravaka, Pratyekabuddha, Bodhisattva, Buddha.
Mutual Possession of the 10 worlds - meaning that all the worlds are dependently originated.
10 Factors - ways of analyzing and understanding any moment through categories listed in the Lotus Sutra.
3 realms - three progressively inclusive contexts - the individual, living beings, the "ecosystem" composed of living beings and their environment

Multiplying those, we get 3000, but that number is nominal and is referring to the infinity of reality.

Our mind, so the teaching goes, is the nexus point of infinity.

So, then what is a Buddha in this context? A Buddha with 32 Major and 80 Minor marks is a being exemplifying the perfection of awakening and who appears to point out the real nature of mind/reality to us. But that is a rather coarse and limited appearance.

Buddha is also an infinitely refined function. Where there is a mistaken apprehension of reality, there is a correct apprehension of reality. The Buddha is the function of showing the correct apprehension of reality, with the most refined function being the piercing of fundamental ignorance (gampon no mumyo).

Talking about the Eternal Buddha, we're talking about that function inherent in the transcendence of our mistaken apprehension of reality and awakening to the correct apprehension of reality.

This is why the practice described in Shodaigyo (presumably - I don't know for sure, but I correlate what I have observed about it thus far with what I do know about Nichiren's teachings) and other practices such as the Sandaihiho (Three Great Secret Laws) involves receiving the transmission of the Lotus Sutra (ie. wisdom about reality). The function of the Buddha works only when we have a disposition of acceptance and the corresponding transmission.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

narhwal90
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by narhwal90 » Mon May 14, 2018 5:47 pm

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:58 pm
narhwal90 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 8:34 pm
Just got my copy of the Shodaigyo book today- very technical and interesting from the brief mailbox-to-kitchen-counter walk. That tri-fold brochure suggests a combined practice well aligned to my taste at the moment, looking forward to elaborations on it that the book may offer.
If you contact Sensei and show real interest, try to join the shodaigyo and Enkyoji Network pages on facebook, there are beside the brochure there are also many videos with precious instructions. But try to present yourself to him and the moderators beforehand!

I wouldn't reactivate my long dead facebook account even if you paid me to, but thanks. :namaste: I'll dig around elsewhere...

narhwal90
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by narhwal90 » Mon May 14, 2018 9:23 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:20 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 6:22 pm
is it something similar to believing in the Dai gGhonzon or the Buddha of Kuon Ganjo ?...
The Daigohonzon is purported to be a mandala inscribed by Nichiren and dedicated to humanity. Setting aside the question of whether the object is what it is purported to be, its supposed to be a mandala empowered with the vow to awaken all beings. If it is what it is purported to be, I don't think any Nichiren Buddhist would have a problem with it. The problem is, other than Shoshu and its offshoots, no one else accepts this claim. To others... well, without going into it, let's just say most others have a very cynical view about the motivations behind the creation of the Daigohonzon.
The Nichiren Mandala Workshop folks propose that the Dai-Gohonzon is possibly a hybrid (meaning its details are transcribed from several gohonzon, they discuss a couple likely candidates identified through stylistic similarities and examination of temple records) sometime in the 1800's after a fire, that sort of "remanufacture" being reasonably commonplace. Back in the day many gohonzon were at least copied and sometimes modified by many of the lineages, some of which are the only surviving images of originals lost to time or fire. Original gohonzon were made by the seniors in the various lineages only for a couple generations after Nichiren, though copies of originals continued to be made.

markatex
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by markatex » Mon May 14, 2018 10:10 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 2:33 pm
I like the classical reliance on seiza, but am wondering if or where Nichiren Shu at least in the US has moved to chairs. I use seiza exclusively at home, and appreciate its continued use elsewhere.
No, not really. I use seiza at home as well.

Just to make sure there isn't any confusion, Nichiren Shu's typical daily practice format is gongyo/otsutome similar to that of SGI and Nichiren Shoshu. Shodaigyo doesn't replace that.

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Minobu
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Minobu » Tue May 15, 2018 5:08 pm

As per my comment on the Daigohonzon ..the context was the claim for it being a supreme gohonzon or something of that nature...the whole pilgrimage to it thing...saying it has certain significance over other Gohonzon even though they are inscribed with the same basic characters.

so to reiterate ...so to say ;
but in our tradition, it signifies eternity. You might be reading it too literally
markatex wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 11:40 pm
The “attained enlightenment innumerable kalpas ago” language is understood to convey eternity. Some will argue this point, but in our tradition, it signifies eternity. You might be reading it too literally.
signifies , reading it too literally
when the words contradict what a going concern is trying to convey...


it's the same as delving into something as important as understanding what the terms Primordial Buddha, Original Enlightenment, mean or who they might be pointing to....i am just confused and wonder what people think it is...


trust me on this....having wrong views about what we are doing has nightmare results...


the whole Shodaigyo thing for me points to the importance of actually meditating whilst doing the practice...

when i first joined ..i would take a moment or two to compose my self...and just chant and just do gongyo....hanging out with authoritarian figures who would say stuff like..."Concentrate solely on the Daimoku, who can do that !?"

the whole chant with a goal....

my approach was ...do the practice...meld with it as strongly as you can....ignore the mental noise ,,,bring yourself back to concentrating on the chant and the gongyo...over and over as much as possible....

and then returning to your daily life...it all works out eventually how you wish or better...

i became lazy and just chanted away thinking what ever i wanted to...all willy nilly...cause apparently it did not matter ....


which turned off everything cool that was happening .

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Queequeg
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Queequeg » Tue May 15, 2018 7:37 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 5:08 pm
but in our tradition, it signifies eternity. You might be reading it too literally
markatex wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 11:40 pm
The “attained enlightenment innumerable kalpas ago” language is understood to convey eternity. Some will argue this point, but in our tradition, it signifies eternity. You might be reading it too literally.
signifies , reading it too literally
when the words contradict what a going concern is trying to convey...
They're words.

If they say, "The Buddha is Eternal", you get people thinking its absolute and unchanging. If you say, "The Buddha is finite", you get people thinking that the Buddha arises and perishes. Either way, its wrong view.

Just trust us, Primordial Buddha is short hand. Its meant to convey something that words necessarily fail at.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

markatex
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by markatex » Tue May 15, 2018 9:13 pm

When I said you're reading it too literally, that was a poor choice of words.

I read something like "attained enlightenment innumerable kalpas ago" as a poetic or literary expression, not something to be analyzed closely. The Lotus Sutra contains many descriptions that make no logical sense. These descriptions are meant to explode the logical mind. A Buddha, according to pre-Lotus scriptures, attains enlightenment after arduous practice, often over many lifetimes. Along comes the Lotus Sutra, with its teaching of Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha. This Buddha is eternal, yet at some point he (being a Buddha) must have attained Buddhahood, if we go by pre-Lotus teachings. So, he must have attained it...in the infinite past? It doesn't make logical sense, but it's a beautiful idea. Just like the millions of bodhisattvas, deities, monks, nuns, lay men, and lay women gathering in a tiny space in order to hear the Buddha, a space that couldn't possibly have accommodated a small fraction of that many beings. It makes no sense, but isn't it a beautiful idea?

markatex
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by markatex » Tue May 15, 2018 10:22 pm

From the book Buddha Seed: Understanding the Odaimoku:
Shakyamuni Buddha has neither beginning nor end and has overcome birth, aging, sickness, and death...The Buddha has also gone beyond (or outside the bounds of) linear time. The ability to recall his own previous existences is indicative of this capacity. To exist without the limits of time and space indicates that the Buddha's life is everywhere and nowhere; essentially, his life is the entire universe...The Buddha's great life transcending time and space is called kuon jitsujo...Shakyamuni Buddha who attained enlightenment in India after his eight year long practice is actually a manifestation of the Original Buddha...
The Lotus Sutra was expounded by the Buddha in accordance with his own heart...Thus, the Lotus Sutra has been called the Buddha's life itself...Nichiren Shonin, the founder of our order, understood the profound and deep connection between the Lotus Sutra and the Buddha...Whenever one reads the Lotus Sutra with deep faith, each character of the Sutra is equal to the Buddha himself because each character is his true heart.

The Kaikyoge (the Verses for Opening the Sutra) includes the following:

"The letters composing this sutra are the Buddha's manifestation."

Nichiren Shonin said: "Seeing the Lotus Sutra equals seeing the living Shakyamuni Buddha" (Reply to Shijo Kingo) and "The letters of this Sutra are the Buddha's soul" (Kito-sho).

The Lotus Sutra is the Eternal Buddha himself.
However, later (and this is important):
If the Lotus Sutra is equal to the Buddha himself, and the five characters of the Odaimoku are equal to the whole Lotus Sutra, then the five characters of the Odaimoku are equal to the Buddha. The five characters...possess the entirety of the Buddha's great compassion, the power to save people, the wisdom of Buddhahood, and the Buddha's virtues. Nichiren Shonin said: "The virtue of the Odaimoku should be equal to the virtue of Shakyamuni Buddha" (Matsuno-dono Gohenji). Thus, Shakyamuni Buddha is the Eternal Buddha.
The Kaikyoge references the Trikaya:

Expounded is the Buddha's truth (dharmakaya)
Expounding is the Buddha's essence (sambhogakaya)
The letters composing this sutra are the Buddha's manifestation (nirmanakya)

The triple-bodied Eternal Shakyamuni is present when we recite the Lotus Sutra and/or the daimoku, and is present in all things, people, and situations. That is what I take the Shoho Jisso Sho (as I thought we would discuss in that thread, which turned into a low-grade flame war) to be about.

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Queequeg
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Queequeg » Wed May 16, 2018 3:13 pm

markatex wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 10:22 pm
The triple-bodied Eternal Shakyamuni is present when we recite the Lotus Sutra and/or the daimoku, and is present in all things, people, and situations. That is what I take the Shoho Jisso Sho (as I thought we would discuss in that thread, which turned into a low-grade flame war) to be about.
Nice post.

So let's get back to the previous discussion.

What does this mean?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Minobu
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Minobu » Wed May 16, 2018 4:26 pm

Welcome Mark to Q's ongoing conundrum with minobu and the Original Primordial Eternal understanding....
Queequeg wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:13 pm
markatex wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 10:22 pm
The triple-bodied Eternal Shakyamuni is present when we recite the Lotus Sutra and/or the daimoku, and is present in all things, people, and situations. That is what I take the Shoho Jisso Sho (as I thought we would discuss in that thread, which turned into a low-grade flame war) to be about.
Nice post.

So let's get back to the previous discussion.

What does this mean?
confused about the flame war...is that another thread...could not find it...


anywho....
i am grateful to mark for making clear
The triple-bodied Eternal Shakyamuni is present when we recite the Lotus Sutra and/or the daimoku, and is present in all things, people, and situations.
really takes my faith to a whole other level , even though i sort of knew this on some level...but making it lucid...that deservers a big online handshake and thank you...

SEE !!!!! if i take ya'lls advice and ignore the literal wording " Eternal " ...i just learned something very big.

so i guess if i stop throwing out the learning experience baby , with the literal wording meanderings' water...I'm much better off...and maybe one day i will know what i am confused about...

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