Shodaigyo

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Queequeg
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Queequeg » Thu May 17, 2018 3:55 pm

Maybe its obvious... but maybe it needs to be said.

The origin, the source, the apex, the point, of Nichiren's teaching is chanting the Daimoku before the Gohonzon. That is sokushinjobutsu - buddhahood in this body. Everything else we discuss is in comparison a provisional teaching. All this we discuss, and indeed all of the Buddha's teachings, all Truth, Buddhist and non-Buddhist, are expedient to that moment of reciting the Daimoku.

If you are not practicing, then all of this discussion we have here is like thinking and talking about doing something without actually doing anything.

Honbutsu is only found in that moment of practice. Everything else is just a poetic description. The poetic descriptions are helpful to explain and understand that experience of the moment of practice, to refine it, but useless when just left as words without referent.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Minobu
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Minobu » Thu May 17, 2018 4:59 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 3:55 pm
Maybe its obvious... but maybe it needs to be said.

The origin, the source, the apex, the point, of Nichiren's teaching is chanting the Daimoku before the Gohonzon. That is sokushinjobutsu - buddhahood in this body. Everything else we discuss is in comparison a provisional teaching. All this we discuss, and indeed all of the Buddha's teachings, all Truth, Buddhist and non-Buddhist, are expedient to that moment of reciting the Daimoku.

If you are not practicing, then all of this discussion we have here is like thinking and talking about doing something without actually doing anything.

Honbutsu is only found in that moment of practice. Everything else is just a poetic description. The poetic descriptions are helpful to explain and understand that experience of the moment of practice, to refine it, but useless when just left as words with out referent.
cannot find a meaning for Honbutso , even here
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd- ... lgHidden=1


and you left us hanging here..

viewtopic.php?t=27844


Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 3:55 pm
Maybe its obvious... but maybe it needs to be said.

The origin, the source, the apex, the point, of Nichiren's teaching is chanting the Daimoku before the Gohonzon. That is sokushinjobutsu - buddhahood in this body. Everything else we discuss is in comparison a provisional teaching. All this we discuss, and indeed all of the Buddha's teachings, all Truth, Buddhist and non-Buddhist, are expedient to that moment of reciting the Daimoku.

If you are not practicing, then all of this discussion we have here is like thinking and talking about doing something without actually doing anything.
whole heartedly agree this is needed to be said ...over and over....

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Minobu
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Minobu » Thu May 17, 2018 5:00 pm

yeah i tried this as well.
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd- ... lgHidden=1


sorry i cannot edit it right away...
but to keep the point intact i post this link as well due to spelling error

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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Queequeg » Thu May 17, 2018 5:18 pm

Ignore the stuff about Nichiren as true Buddha here, and this gives a good idea:

Honbutsu/Hombutsu (the difference has to do with the peculiarity of ん which can be pronounced "n" or "m" depending on context and dialect.)
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/T/262

This is relevant:
When we come to the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra, then the belief that Shakyamuni first obtained Buddhahood during his present lifetime is demolished, and the effects of the four teachings are likewise demolished. When the effects of the four teachings are demolished, the causes of the four teachings are likewise demolished. Thus the cause and effect of the Ten Worlds as expounded in the earlier sutras and the theoretical teaching of the Lotus Sutra are wiped out, and the cause and effect of the Ten Worlds in the essential teaching are revealed. This is the doctrine of original cause and original effect. It reveals that the nine worlds are all present in beginningless Buddhahood and that Buddhahood is inherent in the beginningless nine worlds. This is the true mutual possession of the Ten Worlds, the true hundred worlds and thousand factors, the true three thousand realms in a single moment of life.
Opening the Eyes
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Minobu
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Minobu » Fri May 18, 2018 5:06 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:18 pm
Ignore the stuff about Nichiren as true Buddha here, and this gives a good idea:

Honbutsu/Hombutsu (the difference has to do with the peculiarity of ん which can be pronounced "n" or "m" depending on context and dialect.)
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/T/262

This is relevant:
When we come to the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra, then the belief that Shakyamuni first obtained Buddhahood during his present lifetime is demolished, and the effects of the four teachings are likewise demolished. When the effects of the four teachings are demolished, the causes of the four teachings are likewise demolished. Thus the cause and effect of the Ten Worlds as expounded in the earlier sutras and the theoretical teaching of the Lotus Sutra are wiped out, and the cause and effect of the Ten Worlds in the essential teaching are revealed. This is the doctrine of original cause and original effect. It reveals that the nine worlds are all present in beginningless Buddhahood and that Buddhahood is inherent in the beginningless nine worlds. This is the true mutual possession of the Ten Worlds, the true hundred worlds and thousand factors, the true three thousand realms in a single moment of life.
Opening the Eyes
ok so like words ..

words are used to express a thing..in Buddhism sometimes a non thing...and so on...

so here we go...

original cause ..Buddhahood...the Hare Kirsna's talk of Godhead., my Irish catholic Grandmother referred to the Hand of God,

look up Atman and Paramatman ..an interesting Take on that subject of Paramatman Native Americans refer to The Great Spirit, known as Wakan Tanka

So many cultures and shamans , and philosophers, all pointing to "Something"..

I've been around here long enough to see the denial of God the Creator...and lately as i said quite shockingly a similarity..

Buddhists believe that the Original Cause is Buddhahood , or just Buddha Nature , or Buddha.

i don't know why for so many years it seemed to me...that people pussy footed around this subject in Buddhism...

I think it is due to the fact that Original Cause is not anything like a supreme being at it's initial Original Cause....

the human like aspect of it came later...????....!

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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 18, 2018 5:33 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:06 pm
Buddhists believe that the Original Cause is Buddhahood , or just Buddha Nature , or Buddha.
The Original Cause is Buddhahood... but what is the Effect? The Original Effect is Buddhahood.

This Original Cause is not comparable to Godhead or Hand of God or Great Spirit.

This does not explain the origin of everything. It just explains that Buddha Wisdom is coextensive with Reality, not a proposition about how it was created.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 18, 2018 5:43 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:06 pm
So many cultures and shamans , and philosophers, all pointing to "Something"..
This is not remarkable. This is just people coming to the conclusion that this must come from something, because we look around and we observe cause and effect. The problem is they analyze and go back as far as they can, and they come to an impenetrable wall - a loss of information. The common work around is to take everything they don't know about the past and put it in a basket that they call "God" or "Brahma" or "Great Spirit" or "Big Bang".. or whatever.

What is remarkable about Buddha is that he said, "What does it matter? You've got a poison arrow in your eye. Pull it out or you're gonna die."
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Minobu
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Minobu » Fri May 18, 2018 5:52 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:43 pm
Minobu wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:06 pm
So many cultures and shamans , and philosophers, all pointing to "Something"..
This is not remarkable. This is just people coming to the conclusion that this must come from something, because we look around and we observe cause and effect. The problem is they analyze and go back as far as they can, and they come to an impenetrable wall - a loss of information. The common work around is to take everything they don't know about the past and put it in a basket that they call "God" or "Brahma" or "Great Spirit" or "Big Bang".. or whatever.

What is remarkable about Buddha is that he said, "What does it matter? You've got a poison arrow in your eye. Pull it out or you're gonna die."
i agree with you...totally...but i just want to express that this original cause was never expressed to me as it is being expressed now...

yah Buddha got it right in what He taught...but...He just made clear what others were wondering about.

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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 18, 2018 6:01 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:52 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:43 pm
Minobu wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:06 pm
So many cultures and shamans , and philosophers, all pointing to "Something"..
This is not remarkable. This is just people coming to the conclusion that this must come from something, because we look around and we observe cause and effect. The problem is they analyze and go back as far as they can, and they come to an impenetrable wall - a loss of information. The common work around is to take everything they don't know about the past and put it in a basket that they call "God" or "Brahma" or "Great Spirit" or "Big Bang".. or whatever.

What is remarkable about Buddha is that he said, "What does it matter? You've got a poison arrow in your eye. Pull it out or you're gonna die."
i agree with you...totally...but i just want to express that this original cause was never expressed to me as it is being expressed now...

yah Buddha got it right in what He taught...but...He just made clear what others were wondering about.
It was there... maybe you didn't quite catch it.

Think about the juzu. The juzu represent the human being, with 108 desires. We loop them around the middle fingers and twist it in the middle forming the infinity symbol, and then join our hands in the mudra for the closed Lotus calyx symbolizing the instantaneous original cause and original effect.

boom.

It was literally right there in your hands the whole time.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Minobu
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Minobu » Fri May 18, 2018 6:44 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 6:01 pm
Minobu wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:52 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:43 pm


This is not remarkable. This is just people coming to the conclusion that this must come from something, because we look around and we observe cause and effect. The problem is they analyze and go back as far as they can, and they come to an impenetrable wall - a loss of information. The common work around is to take everything they don't know about the past and put it in a basket that they call "God" or "Brahma" or "Great Spirit" or "Big Bang".. or whatever.

What is remarkable about Buddha is that he said, "What does it matter? You've got a poison arrow in your eye. Pull it out or you're gonna die."
i agree with you...totally...but i just want to express that this original cause was never expressed to me as it is being expressed now...

yah Buddha got it right in what He taught...but...He just made clear what others were wondering about.
It was there... maybe you didn't quite catch it.

Think about the juzu. The juzu represent the human being, with 108 desires. We loop them around the middle fingers and twist it in the middle forming the infinity symbol, and then join our hands in the mudra for the closed Lotus calyx symbolizing the instantaneous original cause and original effect.

boom.

It was literally right there in your hands the whole time.
what you take for granted...i cherish....you know what that is?
all the work you put into understanding something...correctly...lucidly...and sharing it with the world...

you have fixed so much of me....
it might have been in the palm of my hand...but NO ONE TAUGHT ME !!!!!! :broke:

(deletes gakki rant)

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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 18, 2018 7:01 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 6:44 pm
it might have been in the palm of my hand...but NO ONE TAUGHT ME !!!!!! :broke:
There's the story in the Lotus Sutra about the rich merchant who goes out drinking with his friend. In the morning, the merchant must leave on business, and not wanting to wake his friend, he takes a priceless jewel and sews it into the hem of his shirt. Years go by and the friend, penniless and destitute, wanders the streets. The merchant returns and is distressed to see his friend like that and tells him, "Look in the hem of your shirt. I left that for you because I wanted you to be taken care of while I was gone."

All that misfortune for nothing.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

illarraza
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by illarraza » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:13 am

Not a practice of Nichiren. Not found anywhere in the Gosho. Shodaigyo is Nichiren Shu practice first developed ~ 1950 ("Nichiren Shu today more often than not the practice of shikan is part of Shodaigyo meditation, though that practice only goes back to the 1950′s." - Rev. Ryuei)

Mark

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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Queequeg » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:27 pm

illarraza wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:13 am
Not a practice of Nichiren. Not found anywhere in the Gosho. Shodaigyo is Nichiren Shu practice first developed ~ 1950 ("Nichiren Shu today more often than not the practice of shikan is part of Shodaigyo meditation, though that practice only goes back to the 1950′s." - Rev. Ryuei)

Mark
I don't know what Rev. Ryuei is referring to by "shikan", but Nichiren wrote this:

"As a daily religious practice, one should recite the daimoku, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. Those persons who are able to do so should further recite a verse or a phrase of the Lotus Sutra. As a supplementary practice, if one wishes, one may offer praise for Shakyamuni Buddha, Many Treasures Buddha, or the Buddhas of the ten directions, for all the various bodhisattvas or the persons of the two vehicles, the heavenly beings, the dragon deities, or the eight kinds of nonhuman beings [who protect Buddhism]. Since we live in an age when there are many uninformed people, there is no need for believers to attempt at once to practice the meditation on the three thousand realms in a single moment of life, though if there are persons who wish to do so, they should learn how to practice this type of meditation and carry it out."
Nichiren, On Reciting the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra

Does Shodaigyo match Maka Shikan? That's might be an interesting inquiry.

From what I gather, Shodaigyo is Daimoku bookended by breath following meditation.

Your head will not be split in seven pieces nor will you fall into hell for following your breath, anymore than stretching in yoga poses will turn you into an icchantika. Breath following meditation has all sorts of beneficial effects, including enhancing Daimoku practice.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

illarraza
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by illarraza » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:03 am

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:27 pm
illarraza wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:13 am
Not a practice of Nichiren. Not found anywhere in the Gosho. Shodaigyo is Nichiren Shu practice first developed ~ 1950 ("Nichiren Shu today more often than not the practice of shikan is part of Shodaigyo meditation, though that practice only goes back to the 1950′s." - Rev. Ryuei)

Mark
I don't know what Rev. Ryuei is referring to by "shikan", but Nichiren wrote this:

"As a daily religious practice, one should recite the daimoku, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. Those persons who are able to do so should further recite a verse or a phrase of the Lotus Sutra. As a supplementary practice, if one wishes, one may offer praise for Shakyamuni Buddha, Many Treasures Buddha, or the Buddhas of the ten directions, for all the various bodhisattvas or the persons of the two vehicles, the heavenly beings, the dragon deities, or the eight kinds of nonhuman beings [who protect Buddhism]. Since we live in an age when there are many uninformed people, there is no need for believers to attempt at once to practice the meditation on the three thousand realms in a single moment of life, though if there are persons who wish to do so, they should learn how to practice this type of meditation and carry it out."
Nichiren, On Reciting the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra

Does Shodaigyo match Maka Shikan? That's might be an interesting inquiry.

From what I gather, Shodaigyo is Daimoku bookended by breath following meditation.

Your head will not be split in seven pieces nor will you fall into hell for following your breath, anymore than stretching in yoga poses will turn you into an icchantika. Breath following meditation has all sorts of beneficial effects, including enhancing Daimoku practice.
You would have to ask Ryuei but I think what he means that before the 1950s, the Nichiren Shu only chanted the Daimoku. You would have to ask him. Vippisana as well as Yoga does cause the believer to enter the Avici Hell. The Lotus Sutra practice of Nichiren is an exclusive faith and practice for a reason.

Mark

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Queequeg
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by Queequeg » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:27 am

illarraza wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:03 am
Vippisana as well as Yoga does cause the believer to enter the Avici Hell. The Lotus Sutra practice of Nichiren is an exclusive faith and practice for a reason.

Mark
Please explain these statements. Support with proof.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

markatex
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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by markatex » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:04 pm

Grooooooaaaaaan

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Re: Shodaigyo

Post by narhwal90 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:00 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:27 pm
illarraza wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:13 am
Not a practice of Nichiren. Not found anywhere in the Gosho. Shodaigyo is Nichiren Shu practice first developed ~ 1950 ("Nichiren Shu today more often than not the practice of shikan is part of Shodaigyo meditation, though that practice only goes back to the 1950′s." - Rev. Ryuei)

Mark
I don't know what Rev. Ryuei is referring to by "shikan", but Nichiren wrote this:

"As a daily religious practice, one should recite the daimoku, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. Those persons who are able to do so should further recite a verse or a phrase of the Lotus Sutra. As a supplementary practice, if one wishes, one may offer praise for Shakyamuni Buddha, Many Treasures Buddha, or the Buddhas of the ten directions, for all the various bodhisattvas or the persons of the two vehicles, the heavenly beings, the dragon deities, or the eight kinds of nonhuman beings [who protect Buddhism]. Since we live in an age when there are many uninformed people, there is no need for believers to attempt at once to practice the meditation on the three thousand realms in a single moment of life, though if there are persons who wish to do so, they should learn how to practice this type of meditation and carry it out."
Nichiren, On Reciting the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra

Does Shodaigyo match Maka Shikan? That's might be an interesting inquiry.

From what I gather, Shodaigyo is Daimoku bookended by breath following meditation.

Your head will not be split in seven pieces nor will you fall into hell for following your breath, anymore than stretching in yoga poses will turn you into an icchantika. Breath following meditation has all sorts of beneficial effects, including enhancing Daimoku practice.

I had much the same impression of shodaigyo as daimoku/recitiation with breath-following and visualization meditations to back it up. I don't get the sense its a good match for 3 Truths or ichinen sanzen meditation, more like its well-specified formal practice that can be simplified as a basis for daily individual practice. It might be more a correlate to shikan but even so the presence of daimoku brings a different focus I think.

I think the 3-truths, ichinen sanzen meditations definitely need a lot of scholarship in preparation, as Nichiren alludes.

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