Why do we tend to care about what others think?

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bcol01
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Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by bcol01 » Mon May 21, 2018 3:50 am

Self-loathing is a real issue for many people in a society that judges us on every little thing. Why do we tend to care so much?

amanitamusc
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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by amanitamusc » Mon May 21, 2018 5:39 am

bcol01 wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 3:50 am
Self-loathing is a real issue for many people in a society that judges us on every little thing. Why do we tend to care so much?
From what i have heard the source of all of our suffering springs from
the belief in a self.

Wicked Yeshe
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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Mon May 21, 2018 6:45 am

Judging is an old habit. I think it is largely involuntary and based on confused well meaning intentions. This and that, what does it mean? The origin of all things.

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Queequeg
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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by Queequeg » Mon May 21, 2018 2:48 pm

Worrying about this just seems a perpetuation of the very thing.

Just enshrine a picture of the Honey Badger and chant his powerful mantra: The Honey Badger Don't Give a F---.

Here's a video to encourage your Honey Badger Samadhi.



Just kidding.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Queequeg
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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by Queequeg » Mon May 21, 2018 8:45 pm

Here is a more constructive answer...

Your first question -

"Why do we tend to care about what others think?"

Its important to keep in mind that the degree of care varies from person to person. Sociopaths, for instance, care little, if at all, about what others think, and recent research suggests its because their brains are not wired "normally". Setting those examples aside, we care what others think [about us] because we are social animals. We want to fit in with our peers and receive their approval. It is totally normal and natural to care what others think of us.

"Self-loathing is a real issue for many people in a society that judges us on every little thing. Why do we tend to care so much?"

1. Do people really judge us on every little thing? Maybe. Maybe not. We have a tendency of exaggerating what people think about us. In my experience I've found that people generally care a whole lot less about me than I think, sometimes depressingly so. If they're paying attention to us then at least there's that. Being invisible can be even worse.

There are some insular social groups where petty jealousies and judgment thrive, but they're pockets of unhappiness. Consider the parable of the frog in the well.

2. We care so much because, as suggested above, we are social animals.

3. Self-loathing is an issue in itself. You have to start with, why does one loathe oneself?

If you hate yourself because you are a genuinely awful person (a murderer, a rapist, a thug, a sadist, cruel, malicious, etc.) then that's great, as far as I'm concerned. You should feel awful about being an ass hole. I hope it really tortures you to your core. I hope your guilt and shame is debilitating.

If you hate yourself because you think you don't measure up to some standard, you have to ask yourself, is that standard sane? Is it based in reality? Is it reasonable? Is it realistic?

If it is not sane, reasonable, realistic, etc. then maybe you need to rethink the standards by which you measure yourself. Maybe you have no real reason to hate yourself. Maybe its just in your head. Societies that demand conformity, even ostensibly "good" standards, are generally poo.

---

Buddhism is about seeing reality as it is, not as its proposed or wished. Reality is the ultimate standard. In Buddhist practice, we strive to see reality and bring ourselves into conformity with reality. Things like pride and self loathing operate at rather coarse levels of the mind. Dedicated practice will alleviate those sorts of feelings in relatively short order. It won't completely cure you immediately, but at least soften the symptoms for the time being until they are perfectly cured.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

bcol01
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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by bcol01 » Tue May 22, 2018 1:55 am

Ty for your insights. I agree with what all you've said and your input on here has greatly helped me to understand Buddhism. I really can't thank you enough.
Gassho
Queequeg wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:45 pm
Here is a more constructive answer...

Your first question -

"Why do we tend to care about what others think?"

Its important to keep in mind that the degree of care varies from person to person. Sociopaths, for instance, care little, if at all, about what others think, and recent research suggests its because their brains are not wired "normally". Setting those examples aside, we care what others think [about us] because we are social animals. We want to fit in with our peers and receive their approval. It is totally normal and natural to care what others think of us.

"Self-loathing is a real issue for many people in a society that judges us on every little thing. Why do we tend to care so much?"

1. Do people really judge us on every little thing? Maybe. Maybe not. We have a tendency of exaggerating what people think about us. In my experience I've found that people generally care a whole lot less about me than I think, sometimes depressingly so. If they're paying attention to us then at least there's that. Being invisible can be even worse.

There are some insular social groups where petty jealousies and judgment thrive, but they're pockets of unhappiness. Consider the parable of the frog in the well.

2. We care so much because, as suggested above, we are social animals.

3. Self-loathing is an issue in itself. You have to start with, why does one loathe oneself?

If you hate yourself because you are a genuinely awful person (a murderer, a rapist, a thug, a sadist, cruel, malicious, etc.) then that's great, as far as I'm concerned. You should feel awful about being an ass hole. I hope it really tortures you to your core. I hope your guilt and shame is debilitating.

If you hate yourself because you think you don't measure up to some standard, you have to ask yourself, is that standard sane? Is it based in reality? Is it reasonable? Is it realistic?

If it is not sane, reasonable, realistic, etc. then maybe you need to rethink the standards by which you measure yourself. Maybe you have no real reason to hate yourself. Maybe its just in your head. Societies that demand conformity, even ostensibly "good" standards, are generally poo.

---

Buddhism is about seeing reality as it is, not as its proposed or wished. Reality is the ultimate standard. In Buddhist practice, we strive to see reality and bring ourselves into conformity with reality. Things like pride and self loathing operate at rather coarse levels of the mind. Dedicated practice will alleviate those sorts of feelings in relatively short order. It won't completely cure you immediately, but at least soften the symptoms for the time being until they are perfectly cured.

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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by Jesse » Tue May 22, 2018 4:53 pm

From the context of Buddhism, judgment starts with discernment, discernment is a necessary quality to have, but combine discernment with ignorance, and you have suffering.

ofc this is a very watered down version, but you could approach this question from a number of angles.. psychology is a particularly good one, which someone covered already.

Without discernment, we could not distinguish thing's apart, discern their qualities, or make decisions based on observation, but when you begin developing habits of judging things as good, and bad, clinging to, or being averse to things based on your history of encountering them, you develop a viewpoint of things which is based on the past, rather than discerning things objectively.

Now how it relates to your question, society as a whole operates within spheres of mental influence usually determined by culture, as someone else pointed out; in one culture one quality may be viewed as good, while in another it is viewed as bad.

We intuitively understand, through empathy, what others desire, need, and how they perceive us, and thing's.. we do this unconsciously all the time, and as a survival mechanism, we begin to view ourselves through the eyes of others to determine our own value, worth, and desirability.

Why? because as someone mentioned we are social animals, we can not live apart from society (not really.)

If we want thing's from society, be it love, care, nourishment of any type, acceptance, or etc; we must live by the rules of that society. Thus why you do not shit in the sink and drink from the toilet; Especially at your friends houses. :rolling:

It's a game really, we project our image of our best self for others, as to be accepted by them in exchange for the things we need/want from them, and they do the same. You could also view this as a game similar to capitalism, what qualities do I have to offer which are valued by this person/society which will buy me (__x__ desired thing.)

If we have many desires which we do not believe we have the qualities to purchase, then we become self-conscious of our lack of these qualities; and in doing so we become averse to recognizing them in ourselves (and others); thus begins another game of hiding and seeking.

The problem is that at some point, our minds become so filled with this clutter that we have contradicting ideas, cultural identities, and we also suffer from a lack of self-awareness, and our minds don't really distinguish between what we want, and what others want, we don't know when to stop worrying about things, and to stop taking them so seriously. Why are people so self-conscious when they are alone shitting? Ever tried praying while shitting? That's a fun one. :anjali:

Psychology, in particular in the field of marketing uses tactics based on this to sell their products, they push 'buttons' in people, and promise to fix or give (x thing or valued quality). (this pill will make you skinny, increase your breast/dick size, give you infinite energy, make you 10x smarter, etc.)

Well at least they used to, now through mass public manipulation via media and a public so engrossed in it that they can't see beyond it, they manipulate the cultures directly to cause mass appeal or rejection to certain ideas, qualities, and then sell products to solve the very problems they create. (Viral videos/memes/reddit posts, twitter, etc.)

As I said, it's all a game. The most powerful ability in the world is the ability to sell your reality to others, to create value, or a lack of value and have everyone else believe in it.

In fact, the USD, the reserve currency of the world, is based on that very idea; it has no inherent value what-so-ever, yet it's the most desired, and valuable commodity in the world, how'd they do that? Neat magic trick.

Anyway, rant over. Sorry. :pig:
Last edited by Jesse on Tue May 22, 2018 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

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Minobu
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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by Minobu » Tue May 22, 2018 5:11 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:45 pm

If you hate yourself because you are a genuinely awful person (a murderer, a rapist, a thug, a sadist, cruel, malicious, etc.) then that's great, as far as I'm concerned. You should feel awful about being an ass hole. I hope it really tortures you to your core. I hope your guilt and shame is debilitating.

How would this fit into Tian Tai's concept of ichinen sanzen .

should the guilt boil over into future lives?

should the person be shunned forever into future lives...

should the karma not be allowed to be purified...

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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue May 22, 2018 5:25 pm

Jesse wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 4:53 pm
From the context of Buddhism, judgment starts with discernment, discernment is a necessary quality to have, but combine discernment with ignorance, and you have suffering.
^^^

We care because about judgmental people because it must be very painful for people to be judgmental.

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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by Queequeg » Tue May 22, 2018 7:41 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 5:11 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:45 pm

If you hate yourself because you are a genuinely awful person (a murderer, a rapist, a thug, a sadist, cruel, malicious, etc.) then that's great, as far as I'm concerned. You should feel awful about being an ass hole. I hope it really tortures you to your core. I hope your guilt and shame is debilitating.

How would this fit into Tian Tai's concept of ichinen sanzen .

should the guilt boil over into future lives?

should the person be shunned forever into future lives...

should the karma not be allowed to be purified...
Not sure how it fits with anything. Its mostly my opinion. My curse for evil-doers.

Zhiyi's main practice, as I understand, was repentance. In the Lotus Repentance Samadhi he described the process of repentance, and shame is integral. This probably will not sit well with Western psychologists...
First, develop a clear understanding and belief in cause-and-effect;
Second, give rise to profound fearfulness of retribution;
Third, bring forth a deep sense of shame and dread of blame;
Fourth, seek out a method to extinguish offenses;
Fifth, reveal and confess prior offenses;
Sixth, cut off the thought of continuing the offences;
Seventh, resolve to protect the Dharma;
Eighth, make a great vow to liberate beings;
Ninth, be ever mindful of the Buddha;
Tenth, Contemplate the nature of offenses as being unproduced.
The shame and dread of blame is critical in developing the disposition that one takes their past offenses seriously and developing a desire to avoid committing the errors again.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Minobu
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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by Minobu » Tue May 22, 2018 7:51 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 7:41 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 5:11 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:45 pm

If you hate yourself because you are a genuinely awful person (a murderer, a rapist, a thug, a sadist, cruel, malicious, etc.) then that's great, as far as I'm concerned. You should feel awful about being an ass hole. I hope it really tortures you to your core. I hope your guilt and shame is debilitating.

How would this fit into Tian Tai's concept of ichinen sanzen .

should the guilt boil over into future lives?

should the person be shunned forever into future lives...

should the karma not be allowed to be purified...
Not sure how it fits with anything. Its mostly my opinion. My curse for evil-doers.

Zhiyi's main practice, as I understand, was repentance. In the Lotus Repentance Samadhi he described the process of repentance, and shame is integral. This probably will not sit well with Western psychologists...
First, develop a clear understanding and belief in cause-and-effect;
Second, give rise to profound fearfulness of retribution;
Third, bring forth a deep sense of shame and dread of blame;
Fourth, seek out a method to extinguish offenses;
Fifth, reveal and confess prior offenses;
Sixth, cut off the thought of continuing the offences;
Seventh, resolve to protect the Dharma;
Eighth, make a great vow to liberate beings;
Ninth, be ever mindful of the Buddha;
Tenth, Contemplate the nature of offenses as being unproduced.
The shame and dread of blame is critical in developing the disposition that one takes their past offenses seriously and developing a desire to avoid committing the errors again.
pretty much what i thought...it came off harsh and I wanted you to make clear your view....

I basically go along with Zhiyi ...

can you discuss the nuts and bolts of eradicating Karma...can it be dispelled...
is there a get out of jail free card to all this ?

in my early gakki days we were taught lessening of Karmic retribution ..

do we really get off lightly...or do we all have to suffer every inch of it...which is just in western eyes...

but if we can actually learn ..and know we look so down on the wrong doing ...that it's impossible to do again due to growth....

then ...is that not the best....in other words...develop for real and live to always do better...

there is a theory that with education comes less violence and domestic quarrel and so on...the need to steal is vanquished with wealth...unless of course you are sick and are compelled to do wrong....which goes well with my eradicate and grow to live a better life through dharma practice.

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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by Queequeg » Tue May 22, 2018 8:09 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 7:51 pm
pretty much what i thought...it came off harsh and I wanted you to make clear your view....
Harsh is in the eye of the beholder... Actually, murderers, rapists, and assorted terrors are bound for aeons in hell. Debilitating shame and guilt is getting off easy if that's all there is to it.
can you discuss the nuts and bolts of eradicating Karma...can it be dispelled...
is there a get out of jail free card to all this ?
Not really, not with any certainty. I don't know if anyone can really explain the nuts and bolts of karma except highly realized beings like great bodhisattvas and Buddhas.

There are no "get out of jail free cards." Causes have effects. That's point one in the repentance process. Karma cannot be effaced. It must play out.

As I understand it, Daimoku produces such inconceivable merit that it overwhelms all other karma, like a tsunami that overwhelms the ripples on the surface of the water.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Minobu
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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by Minobu » Wed May 23, 2018 5:18 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:45 pm
Here is a more constructive answer...


If you hate yourself because you are a genuinely awful person (a murderer, a rapist, a thug, a sadist, cruel, malicious, etc.) then that's great, as far as I'm concerned. You should feel awful about being an ass hole. I hope it really tortures you to your core. I hope your guilt and shame is debilitating.

Queequeg wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 8:09 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 7:51 pm
it came off harsh and I wanted you to make clear your view....
Harsh is in the eye of the beholder... Actually, murderers, rapists, and assorted terrors are bound for aeons in hell. Debilitating shame and guilt is getting off easy if that's all there is to it.

Ok I think this whole segue into segue is inline with the title of the thread....lol...

what is harsh is your volition of hoping for self torture and debilitating guilt and shame.

This is so far down the scale of compassion and understanding of the human condition for some.

A person is trapped in a life of murder and rape...Hell leading to hell...

Ours is not the role of wishing harm on anyone...avoid these thoughts like the plague...as you would jealousy, anger , greed, hatred, and anything else that is so far down the scale of ichinen sanzen.

i thought you were going to tell us something other than doubling down on the hatred ....

Instead of chanting for the whole paradigm of rape and murder to be erased from samsara...you indulge in the very cesspool it creates..you join in on the lower realms ......

it's just something i never have done...anyone who has caused me harm i thank....even before i met buddhism this time around.

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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by Queequeg » Wed May 23, 2018 6:05 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 5:18 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:45 pm
Here is a more constructive answer...


If you hate yourself because you are a genuinely awful person (a murderer, a rapist, a thug, a sadist, cruel, malicious, etc.) then that's great, as far as I'm concerned. You should feel awful about being an ass hole. I hope it really tortures you to your core. I hope your guilt and shame is debilitating.

Queequeg wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 8:09 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 7:51 pm
it came off harsh and I wanted you to make clear your view....
Harsh is in the eye of the beholder... Actually, murderers, rapists, and assorted terrors are bound for aeons in hell. Debilitating shame and guilt is getting off easy if that's all there is to it.

Ok I think this whole segue into segue is inline with the title of the thread....lol...

what is harsh is your volition of hoping for self torture and debilitating guilt and shame.

This is so far down the scale of compassion and understanding of the human condition for some.

A person is trapped in a life of murder and rape...Hell leading to hell...

Ours is not the role of wishing harm on anyone...avoid these thoughts like the plague...as you would jealousy, anger , greed, hatred, and anything else that is so far down the scale of ichinen sanzen.

i thought you were going to tell us something other than doubling down on the hatred ....

Instead of chanting for the whole paradigm of rape and murder to be erased from samsara...you indulge in the very cesspool it creates..you join in on the lower realms ......

it's just something i never have done...anyone who has caused me harm i thank....even before i met buddhism this time around.
When you're right you're right. What can be said on my account? Can't say I'm a particularly evolved being. I do wish for people to get their due.

"That's whatcha get!"

:rolling:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Minobu
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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by Minobu » Wed May 23, 2018 6:40 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 6:05 pm
Minobu wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 5:18 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:45 pm
Here is a more constructive answer...


If you hate yourself because you are a genuinely awful person (a murderer, a rapist, a thug, a sadist, cruel, malicious, etc.) then that's great, as far as I'm concerned. You should feel awful about being an ass hole. I hope it really tortures you to your core. I hope your guilt and shame is debilitating.

Queequeg wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 8:09 pm


Harsh is in the eye of the beholder... Actually, murderers, rapists, and assorted terrors are bound for aeons in hell. Debilitating shame and guilt is getting off easy if that's all there is to it.

Ok I think this whole segue into segue is inline with the title of the thread....lol...

what is harsh is your volition of hoping for self torture and debilitating guilt and shame.

This is so far down the scale of compassion and understanding of the human condition for some.

A person is trapped in a life of murder and rape...Hell leading to hell...

Ours is not the role of wishing harm on anyone...avoid these thoughts like the plague...as you would jealousy, anger , greed, hatred, and anything else that is so far down the scale of ichinen sanzen.

i thought you were going to tell us something other than doubling down on the hatred ....

Instead of chanting for the whole paradigm of rape and murder to be erased from samsara...you indulge in the very cesspool it creates..you join in on the lower realms ......

it's just something i never have done...anyone who has caused me harm i thank....even before i met buddhism this time around.
When you're right you're right. What can be said on my account? Can't say I'm a particularly evolved being. I do wish for people to get their due.

"That's whatcha get!"

:rolling:
I really did not want to come off as some sanctimonious ass ..

Thing is "It's enough we have learned everyone gets their due...let's not join in their energy fest."

someone once said somewhere even Hitler will eventually attain Buddhahood....

if that is not the way of this whole thing...then we all would be eternally in some hell...for i'm hedging my bets long ago before we became Bodhisatvas of the Earth...we have been soldiers who kill and nutsos that rape...we all have tasted the strongest of meats...at one time anyway...

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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by Queequeg » Wed May 23, 2018 7:31 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 6:40 pm
Thing is "It's enough we have learned everyone gets their due...let's not join in their energy fest."
It feels too good. Its... like... sex...

https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardc ... otainment/

:stirthepot:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: Why do we tend to care about what others think?

Post by Queequeg » Thu May 24, 2018 5:25 pm

I've apparently disappointed our friend, Minobu.

By expressing hope that evil doers suffer "debilitating shame and guilt", not punishment in kind or eons in hell, mind you, I am a failed Buddhist.

[deep breath]

There is truth to this.

The regard with which my friend holds me is both humbling and embarrassing. To disappoint means there were expectations, and in this case, its a moral failing on my part, so there was an expectation that I embody a standard of morality.

That's heavy. That's a lot of responsibility.

I don't take myself seriously. At least, I keep a laugh close to my heart to deal with how serious things are. But these are private struggles. Its embarrassing to think that my obsession with Dharma and the derivative and vain need to discuss it (bloviate) has raised expectations about me. Perhaps I ought to take my role as Queequeg more seriously. Perhaps I should play my role with greater earnestness, greater authenticity. I ought not make joking references to the sadistic streak in popular culture to deflect critique of my moral failure.

Mea culpa.

One ought not find indulgent satisfaction in the suffering of another. This is not conducive to awakening but rather cause for further perpetuation of samsara.

A more correct view, is that suffering is pitiable, more so because it was not destined, but the consequence of ignorant actions. One ought have compassion for others mired in ignorance.

This is hard to do, when one is drowning in samsara, themselves. But the offense is heightened when one knows better.

I should know better.

:broke:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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