Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

dharmapdx
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Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by dharmapdx » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:08 am

I'm really not trying to be cute here. LOL. Given that this is a Tibetan chant, I would guess it doesn't have the tangled history with Nichiren Buddhism that, say, the Nembutsu does.

Sometimes I just think I'd like to chant that. I've always had an affinity for Tibetan Buddhism.

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by Josef » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:58 am

dharmapdx wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:08 am
I'm really not trying to be cute here. LOL. Given that this is a Tibetan chant, I would guess it doesn't have the tangled history with Nichiren Buddhism that, say, the Nembutsu does.

Sometimes I just think I'd like to chant that. I've always had an affinity for Tibetan Buddhism.
It isnt a Tibetan chant. This is an Indian Buddhist mantra that can be recited by anyone.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:06 am

One can do anything they are able to do.

I can step in front of a speeding bus.

LOL

If you understood what the Gohonzon is, and what Om Mani Padme Hum is, I don't think that question would occur to you.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by narhwal90 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:06 pm

Nothing stopping you from reciting it as a practice in itself, but I don't think doing so to a gohonzon conforms to Nichiren's intent.

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by Yuren » Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:53 pm

dharmapdx wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:08 am
Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Ask the Gohonzon.

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:59 pm

Discussion of the source of Om Mani Padme Hum chant split to the Mahayana forum.

Split Thread:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29384
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by markatex » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:13 pm

From our perspective, it’s redundant at best. If all the merits of the Eternal Shakyamuni’s practice and enlightenment are contained in the daimoku, then there’s no need to chant other mantras (for lack of a better term).

Nichiren’s opposition to nembutsu recitation had nothing to do with the nembutsu itself. He rejected it because it was inappropriate for the age of mappo and because chanting it would give the appearance that one was elevating provisional teaching above the Lotus Sutra, even if that wasn’t what you were actually doing. The same could be applied to any other practice not centered on the Lotus Sutra.

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by Aryjna » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:36 pm

markatex wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:13 pm
From our perspective, it’s redundant at best. If all the merits of the Eternal Shakyamuni’s practice and enlightenment are contained in the daimoku, then there’s no need to chant other mantras (for lack of a better term).

Nichiren’s opposition to nembutsu recitation had nothing to do with the nembutsu itself. He rejected it because it was inappropriate for the age of mappo and because chanting it would give the appearance that one was elevating provisional teaching above the Lotus Sutra, even if that wasn’t what you were actually doing. The same could be applied to any other practice not centered on the Lotus Sutra.
Reciting the mantra can easily be considered to be based on the Lotus Sutra, as the Lotus Sutra explains the benefits of reciting Avalokiteshvara's name.

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:17 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:36 pm
markatex wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:13 pm
From our perspective, it’s redundant at best. If all the merits of the Eternal Shakyamuni’s practice and enlightenment are contained in the daimoku, then there’s no need to chant other mantras (for lack of a better term).

Nichiren’s opposition to nembutsu recitation had nothing to do with the nembutsu itself. He rejected it because it was inappropriate for the age of mappo and because chanting it would give the appearance that one was elevating provisional teaching above the Lotus Sutra, even if that wasn’t what you were actually doing. The same could be applied to any other practice not centered on the Lotus Sutra.
Reciting the mantra can easily be considered to be based on the Lotus Sutra, as the Lotus Sutra explains the benefits of reciting Avalokiteshvara's name.
This is true. However, a distinction is made between the practice of calling on Avalokitesvara and the main teaching/practice of the sutra. In the East Asian Lotus traditions, the Lotus has two main messages - First, the Buddha Nature of all beings including arhats, pratyekabuddhas, and icchantikas, and Second, the Buddha's life span. Calling on Avalokitesvara is an ancillary practice based on Avalokitesvara's vow to protect those who uphold the Lotus. So, its not considered the same, especially in Nichiren schools.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by markatex » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:11 am

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:17 pm
Calling on Avalokitesvara is an ancillary practice based on Avalokitesvara's vow to protect those who uphold the Lotus. So, its not considered the same, especially in Nichiren schools.
Right. It's interesting how little Avalokitesvara figures in Nichiren Buddhism. Does Nichiren ever mention him/her at all? In Nichiren Shu, chapter 25 is sometimes recited, but the practice of actually calling on Avalokitesvara is non-existent.

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by Virgo » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:44 am

markatex wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:11 am
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:17 pm
Calling on Avalokitesvara is an ancillary practice based on Avalokitesvara's vow to protect those who uphold the Lotus. So, its not considered the same, especially in Nichiren schools.
Right. It's interesting how little Avalokitesvara figures in Nichiren Buddhism. Does Nichiren ever mention him/her at all? In Nichiren Shu, chapter 25 is sometimes recited, but the practice of actually calling on Avalokitesvara is non-existent.
Nichiren seemed to emphasize the eternal Buddha Shakyamuni (enlightened in the distant past) the most, and then the other Buddha's like Taho Buddha that stretched out their toungues and came to the ceremony in the sky, and the Bodhisattva's of the Earth moreso than the other bodhisattvas, likely because they are seen to have a stronger connection with the Lotus Sutra.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by illarraza » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:19 am

Josef wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:58 am
dharmapdx wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:08 am
I'm really not trying to be cute here. LOL. Given that this is a Tibetan chant, I would guess it doesn't have the tangled history with Nichiren Buddhism that, say, the Nembutsu does.

Sometimes I just think I'd like to chant that. I've always had an affinity for Tibetan Buddhism.
It isnt a Tibetan chant. This is an Indian Buddhist mantra that can be recited by anyone.
Not a Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhist. The reason is, Namu Myoho renge kyo is the name of the Mystic Law and teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter of the Lotus Sutra (Eternal Buddha). One might come to believe that Om mani padme hum was the name of the Mystic Law. As Nichiren taught about the Nembutsu, that after chanting millions of Namu Myoho renge kyo's, it is OK to mumble to yourself a few Nembutsu, one can mumble to oneself, a few Om mani padme hums.

Mark

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by narhwal90 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:19 am

I had a look thru the Mandala Workshop books- vol 3 page 60 lists the frequencies of figures on the known gohonzon. Amida is not present on any which perhaps makes sense given the situation, OTOH Avalokitesvara is also never present- which seems a bit obscure given the presence of the Womb & Diamond figures on a few, Bhaisajyaguru on over 50 and Maitreya likewise. Aside from the top rank of notables Nichiren considerably varied the gohonzon design, not so much innovating by introducing new notables but varying the combination. There are only a few cases of new figures introduced after the 1264-1274 timeframe.

Though many dozens of gohonzon have been lost to time, extant & studied gohonzon span Nichiren's production, and likewise for many of the 1st gen disciples, so I imagine if Avalokitesvara showed up on it would have been on a limited basis. For instance Vasubandhu shows up on 3, and the Dragon King's Daughter on 1.

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by markatex » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:58 am

Avalokitesvara is not on the Gohonzon, possibly because of the association with Amitabha, and possibly because Kishimojin (who is on the Gohonzon) is sometimes identified with Avalokitesvara, so Nichiren thought it redundant.

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:33 am

Virgo wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:44 am
markatex wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:11 am
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:17 pm
Calling on Avalokitesvara is an ancillary practice based on Avalokitesvara's vow to protect those who uphold the Lotus. So, its not considered the same, especially in Nichiren schools.
Right. It's interesting how little Avalokitesvara figures in Nichiren Buddhism. Does Nichiren ever mention him/her at all? In Nichiren Shu, chapter 25 is sometimes recited, but the practice of actually calling on Avalokitesvara is non-existent.
Nichiren seemed to emphasize the eternal Buddha Shakyamuni (enlightened in the distant past) the most, and then the other Buddha's like Taho Buddha that stretched out their toungues and came to the ceremony in the sky, and the Bodhisattva's of the Earth moreso than the other bodhisattvas, likely because they are seen to have a stronger connection with the Lotus Sutra.

Kevin...
In a previous life, when Shakyamuni was the 16th son of a Buddha, one of his older brothers was a bodhisattva who would become Amitayus. (Ch. 7) Also, in the Degenerate Age, if a woman can practice the Lotus Sutra, she will be reborn in Sukhavati with Amitayus. (Ch.23)

In the essential teaching, Amitayus/Amitabha is considered an emanation of Shakyamuni of the Essential Chapter, and presumably appears as one of the Buddhas from the ten directions who gathers to witness the exposition of the Lotus (these are the buddhas who extend their tongues to the Brahma heaven).

I can't recall Avalokitesvara mentioned even once by Nichiren. For that matter, I can't recall Manjusri or Samantabhadra, either. They do appear on the Gohonzon. I believe this is because they are Shakyamuni's attendants in his provisional Mahayana form. For the same reason, Sariputra and Mahakasyapa who are Shakyamuni's attendants in his provisional Hinayana form. He also nearly never mentions Fudo Myo'o or Aizen Myo'o though they appear on nearly every Gohonzon inscribed.

The arrangement of these figures on the Gohonzon illustrates the place of the teachings they represent in Nichiren's view.

Nichiren does refer to Sadaparibhuta Bodhisattva, as well as the Bodhisattvas of the Earth, particularly the four leaders, in his writings. Sadaparibhuta does not appear on the Gohonzon - presumably because he is one of Shakyamuni's previous incarnations. The four leaders of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth, however, are depicted attending Shakyamuni to indicate that the Shakyamuni on the Gohonzon is the Shakyamuni of the Essential Teaching.

I always assumed that Nichiren did not mention Avalokitesvara because though he is associated with the Lotus Sutra, he was primarily known as one of Amitayus/Amitabha's attendants, and for people who were steeped in Pure Land as many in Japan of Nichiren's time were, Avalokitesvara would simply bring too much baggage. Same for Amitayus/Amitabha. Like outlawed milk, they could not be mentioned.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by dharmapdx » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:41 am

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:36 pm


Reciting the mantra can easily be considered to be based on the Lotus Sutra, as the Lotus Sutra explains the benefits of reciting Avalokiteshvara's name.
Thank you. This is actually what I had assumed, which is why I asked the question.

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:38 pm

dharmapdx wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:41 am
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:36 pm


Reciting the mantra can easily be considered to be based on the Lotus Sutra, as the Lotus Sutra explains the benefits of reciting Avalokiteshvara's name.
Thank you. This is actually what I had assumed, which is why I asked the question.
To be clear, your assumption is wrong as far as Nichiren teachings go.

FWIW
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

dharmapdx
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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by dharmapdx » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:54 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:38 pm
dharmapdx wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:41 am
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:36 pm


Reciting the mantra can easily be considered to be based on the Lotus Sutra, as the Lotus Sutra explains the benefits of reciting Avalokiteshvara's name.
Thank you. This is actually what I had assumed, which is why I asked the question.
To be clear, your assumption is wrong as far as Nichiren teachings go.

FWIW
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:17 pm

This is true. However, a distinction is made between the practice of calling on Avalokitesvara and the main teaching/practice of the sutra. In the East Asian Lotus traditions, the Lotus has two main messages - First, the Buddha Nature of all beings including arhats, pratyekabuddhas, and icchantikas, and Second, the Buddha's life span. Calling on Avalokitesvara is an ancillary practice based on Avalokitesvara's vow to protect those who uphold the Lotus. So, its not considered the same, especially in Nichiren schools.
Incorrect? Or a distinction?

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by Virgo » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:53 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:33 am
Virgo wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:44 am
markatex wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:11 am


Right. It's interesting how little Avalokitesvara figures in Nichiren Buddhism. Does Nichiren ever mention him/her at all? In Nichiren Shu, chapter 25 is sometimes recited, but the practice of actually calling on Avalokitesvara is non-existent.
Nichiren seemed to emphasize the eternal Buddha Shakyamuni (enlightened in the distant past) the most, and then the other Buddha's like Taho Buddha that stretched out their toungues and came to the ceremony in the sky, and the Bodhisattva's of the Earth moreso than the other bodhisattvas, likely because they are seen to have a stronger connection with the Lotus Sutra.

Kevin...
In a previous life, when Shakyamuni was the 16th son of a Buddha, one of his older brothers was a bodhisattva who would become Amitayus. (Ch. 7) Also, in the Degenerate Age, if a woman can practice the Lotus Sutra, she will be reborn in Sukhavati with Amitayus. (Ch.23)

In the essential teaching, Amitayus/Amitabha is considered an emanation of Shakyamuni of the Essential Chapter, and presumably appears as one of the Buddhas from the ten directions who gathers to witness the exposition of the Lotus (these are the buddhas who extend their tongues to the Brahma heaven).

I can't recall Avalokitesvara mentioned even once by Nichiren. For that matter, I can't recall Manjusri or Samantabhadra, either. They do appear on the Gohonzon. I believe this is because they are Shakyamuni's attendants in his provisional Mahayana form. For the same reason, Sariputra and Mahakasyapa who are Shakyamuni's attendants in his provisional Hinayana form. He also nearly never mentions Fudo Myo'o or Aizen Myo'o though they appear on nearly every Gohonzon inscribed.

The arrangement of these figures on the Gohonzon illustrates the place of the teachings they represent in Nichiren's view.

Nichiren does refer to Sadaparibhuta Bodhisattva, as well as the Bodhisattvas of the Earth, particularly the four leaders, in his writings. Sadaparibhuta does not appear on the Gohonzon - presumably because he is one of Shakyamuni's previous incarnations. The four leaders of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth, however, are depicted attending Shakyamuni to indicate that the Shakyamuni on the Gohonzon is the Shakyamuni of the Essential Teaching.

I always assumed that Nichiren did not mention Avalokitesvara because though he is associated with the Lotus Sutra, he was primarily known as one of Amitayus/Amitabha's attendants, and for people who were steeped in Pure Land as many in Japan of Nichiren's time were, Avalokitesvara would simply bring too much baggage. Same for Amitayus/Amitabha. Like outlawed milk, they could not be mentioned.
Thanks.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

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Re: Can Nichiren Buddhists chant "Om mani padme hum" to the Gohonzon?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:13 pm

dharmapdx wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:54 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:38 pm
dharmapdx wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:41 am


Thank you. This is actually what I had assumed, which is why I asked the question.
To be clear, your assumption is wrong as far as Nichiren teachings go.

FWIW
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:17 pm

This is true. However, a distinction is made between the practice of calling on Avalokitesvara and the main teaching/practice of the sutra. In the East Asian Lotus traditions, the Lotus has two main messages - First, the Buddha Nature of all beings including arhats, pratyekabuddhas, and icchantikas, and Second, the Buddha's life span. Calling on Avalokitesvara is an ancillary practice based on Avalokitesvara's vow to protect those who uphold the Lotus. So, its not considered the same, especially in Nichiren schools.
Incorrect? Or a distinction?
Depends on the perspective.

For Nichiren, calling on Avalokitesvara is not an appropriate practice for the Degenerate Age.

Hairs can be split all day, but what you are proposing, chanting Om Mani Padme Hum to the Gohonzon would be proscribed by Nichiren in the strictest terms. As I wrote above, if you understood what these things mean, this question would not occur to you.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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