Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

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Grigoris
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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Grigoris » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:02 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:25 pm
Focusing on having any form of sex for anything other than procreation is a distraction from time spent on spiritual practice.
Why would sex for procreation not be a distraction from time spent on spiritual practice?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Queequeg » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:41 pm

The consequences of sex for procreation are definitely distractions from practice!
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:21 pm

My devil's advocate answer was going to be that procreative sex can generate the possibility of creating more dharma practitioners, as well as facilitating precious human births.

Taken to extremes, this idea that procreative sex facilitates precious human births wherein there exists the possibility for dharma practice, it literally turns the entirety of the Buddhadharma into a procreative sex cult.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:00 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:21 pm
it literally turns the entirety of the Buddhadharma into a procreative sex cult.
Which is also known in the Buntra's as Bunnydharma.... :spy:
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

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Queequeg
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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Queequeg » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:47 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:21 pm
My devil's advocate answer was going to be that procreative sex can generate the possibility of creating more dharma practitioners, as well as facilitating precious human births.

Taken to extremes, this idea that procreative sex facilitates precious human births wherein there exists the possibility for dharma practice, it literally turns the entirety of the Buddhadharma into a procreative sex cult.
more Dharma practitioners? More drama practitioners more like it. Check out the sex cults that are currently burning.

As Eddie Murphy's uncle Gus says, "Now that's a fire!"
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:38 am

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:47 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:21 pm
My devil's advocate answer was going to be that procreative sex can generate the possibility of creating more dharma practitioners, as well as facilitating precious human births.

Taken to extremes, this idea that procreative sex facilitates precious human births wherein there exists the possibility for dharma practice, it literally turns the entirety of the Buddhadharma into a procreative sex cult.
more Dharma practitioners? More drama practitioners more like it.
We can misuse the Zen quotes above to call into question the difference between dharma practice and drama practice!
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Grigoris
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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Grigoris » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:50 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:21 pm
My devil's advocate answer was going to be that procreative sex can generate the possibility of creating more dharma practitioners, as well as facilitating precious human births.

Taken to extremes, this idea that procreative sex facilitates precious human births wherein there exists the possibility for dharma practice, it literally turns the entirety of the Buddhadharma into a procreative sex cult.
That would be completely deluded. I was born into a Greek Orthodox Christian family. My parents are devout (my father is a chorister) followers. I had to attend a Greek school run by the diocese where I received a religious education too. I was in the choir. I was an altar boy.

Then puberty hit and I became a rabid atheist and anarchist.

Now I am a Buddhist.

So humping for Jesus did not work. I fail to see how humping for Buddha would work either.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Tiago Simões
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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Tiago Simões » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:40 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:21 pm
My devil's advocate answer was going to be that procreative sex can generate the possibility of creating more dharma practitioners, as well as facilitating precious human births.

Taken to extremes, this idea that procreative sex facilitates precious human births wherein there exists the possibility for dharma practice, it literally turns the entirety of the Buddhadharma into a procreative sex cult.
Adopting will do the same. Actually adopting might get better results.
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by illarraza » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:48 am

The Buddha in the Lotus Sutra teaches of a world where the physiologic method of reproducing is parthenogenesis. Is it a metaphor or is it something else? Is the Treasure Tower a metaphor only? Bodhisattvas 500 feet tall on other worlds? Flying cars? Some things are fruitless to question or contemplate and the Buddha was silent. Licentiousness is admonished in the Lotus Sutra because Buddhism is the teaching of the Middle Way of moderation, between the extremes of sensual indulgence and self-denial. This would apply to heterosexuals, homosexuals, and bisexuals.

Mark

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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Ginkyo » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:10 pm

I'm gay (and man did I have to wade through some awful nasty stuff to get to feeling comfortable in my own skin). I wanted to ask about something I've always found a bit disturbing in the Lotus Sutra - what does it mean when it talks about the 'five types of unmanly men' in the Peaceful Practices section?

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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:43 pm

Ginkyo wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:10 pm
I'm gay (and man did I have to wade through some awful nasty stuff to get to feeling comfortable in my own skin). I wanted to ask about something I've always found a bit disturbing in the Lotus Sutra - what does it mean when it talks about the 'five types of unmanly men' in the Peaceful Practices section?
It means paṇḍakāḥ of the 5 varieties.
From wikipedia:

āsittakapaṇḍaka - A man who gains satisfaction from performing oral sex on another man and from ingesting his semen, and only becomes sexually aroused after ingesting another man's semen.
ussūyapaṇḍaka - A voyeur, a man who gains sexual satisfaction from watching a man and a woman having sex, and only becomes sexually aroused after that.
opakkamikapaṇḍaka - A Eunuch by-assault, testicle that are annihilated by assault or violence.[3]("still could attain ejaculation through some special effort or artifice".)
pakkhapaṇḍaka - People who become sexually aroused in parallel with the phases of the moon.
napuṁsakapaṇḍaka - A person with no clearly defined genitals, whether male or female, having only a urinary tract, one who is congenitally impotent

They are bizarre little categories, that seem altogether too specific in their descriptions.

Who only becomes sexually aroused after ingesting another man's semen? That is bizarre. It implies that when such a paṇḍaka initiates oral sex, (s)he is not horny.

The pakkhapandaka sounds like someone who got caught sneaking around, and when caught, made up a quick ad hoc excuse:

"guys, it's cool, this only happens on the full moon"
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:46 pm

According to the fourfold vinaya, āsittakapaṇḍaka & ussūyapaṇḍaka may ordain as monks. The others may not, for whatever reason.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by markatex » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:36 pm

Thanks, Coemgenu, I wasn’t sure what the specifics were, but I knew one of them was a eunuch.

Yes, they are bizarre categories, and very culturally-specific, which is one reason to not put much stock in that.

The Soto Zen teacher Rev. Master Jiyu-Kennett translated chapter 14 (from Japanese or Chinese? I’m not sure) and she translated the “five kinds of manly men” line as “hedonist,” iirc. Her translations and interpretations are idiosyncratic to say the least, but I thought that was interesting.

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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Minobu » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:02 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:02 pm
Minobu wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:25 pm
Focusing on having any form of sex for anything other than procreation is a distraction from time spent on spiritual practice.
Why would sex for procreation not be a distraction from time spent on spiritual practice?
Depends on what one considers spiritual.
Procreation in and of itself is spiritual. It's "LIFE"
Hedonistic sex is just that, hedonism.

The Dali lama frowns on masturbation, take your cue from that.

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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by markatex » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:03 am

Minobu wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:02 pm
The Dali lama frowns on masturbation, take your cue from that.
No, thanks. I'll take my cue from Nichiren Shonin. Frankly, I couldn't care less what the Dalai Lama frowns on.

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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:25 am

I would imagine Nichiren would frown on it as well

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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Queequeg » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:49 am

Nichiren never hesitated to condemn what he thought was wrong.

NICHIREN NEVER CONDEMNED WHO YOU LOVE.

The worst thing you could be in Nichiren's world was a woman:
Do not these interpretations make clear that, among all the teachings of the Buddha’s lifetime, the Lotus Sutra is first, and that, among the teachings of the Lotus Sutra, that of women attaining Buddhahood is first? For this reason, though the women of Japan may be condemned in all sutras other than the Lotus as incapable of attaining Buddhahood, as long as the Lotus guarantees their enlightenment, what reason have they to be downcast?
Nichiren did not suggest that some notion of right or wrong should be observed.

"Suffer what there is to suffer, enjoy what there is to enjoy. Regard both suffering and joy as facts of life, and continue chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo, no matter what happens. How could this be anything other than the boundless joy of the Law? Strengthen your power of faith more than ever."

I think I quite safely speak for the regular posters at this site: we don't care who you love. Do you love? That's what matters.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:18 pm

markatex wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:36 pm
Thanks, Coemgenu, I wasn’t sure what the specifics were, but I knew one of them was a eunuch.

Yes, they are bizarre categories, and very culturally-specific, which is one reason to not put much stock in that.
In the vinaya it is a separate offence for a monk to have sex with a woman, with a man, or a paṇḍaka. All three of these transgressions are functionally equivalent, but this threefold distinction is maintained nonetheless. So it's not always easy to tell what paṇḍaka really could have meant in the Buddha's time.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Minobu
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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by Minobu » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:02 pm

As per my comments:
I try to stay as close to edicts as laid down in the lotus sutra when practicing .

I ask about those edicts and think about them constantly.

In this case ,even though it is a gay sex thread, any sex should be considered .
whether it is by your self or a partner or partners ,in and out of marriage , with same sex or cross species.

My modern views of gay sex and love have nothing to do with the actual doctrines as laid out in the Lotus sutra.

I live with that.



Let's take abortion, another serious modern day concern. I view it as killing a sentient..If a man asks for a women to kill the child growing in her womb ,is it a child? i think so. People these days would flush a sentient out the womb with less thought than a tinker's toss. regardless of the american roe vs. wade debate. American law is garbage now that Trump dictates nonsense. america is now an inane institution. The president wants to ruin countries and said yesterday he stated he is in love with kim jung un ...a dictator who is a mass murderer . i digress...but we do have to put aside legal and moral and ethical american view on abortion and gay sex...the country is run by nut jobs.

So the sutra has certain criteria for a Bodhisattva and their conduct....most of which seems impossible in modern day living ...it's shockingly scary at times.

do we toss it out to appeal to more members or appease our desires?

So at this juncture i feel that the practice laid out, lets say in Shoshu and Gakki does not form to the regulations in the Sutra.

another note is if we glom over other areas of this site it becomes obvious that certain practice puts away sexual gratification to focus solely on the physical practices needed to attain full blown enlightenment.

keep in mind it was only here at this site where meditation became an obvious need as it was for Nichiren Priests at the time of the Master.

a bit of a ramble...but i am trying to clarify that talking from the Lotus sutra perspective about gay sex and sex in general and my own ideas are radically different.

i've said it before and will say it again...i see nothing wrong with gay marriage or gay dating or gay love...in fact i have always stood up for it, in spite of being told back in the day i was so wrong....

i'm heteral sexual...same sex abhors me in the sense of my own sexual desire...but i realize that does not make it wrong in any way....

unless you look towards the Lotus sutra for guidance on this matter...i think it is clear that any sex is to be avoided by Bodhisattvas on the path of the Lotus sutra...

Which leads me to believe there is a practice for householders who have no chance of following to the " T " that which is laid down for Bodhisattvas practicing the strict guidelines.....so it's like for the householders to accomplish in a future life...

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The Cicada
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Re: Question about homosexuality & life's experience...

Post by The Cicada » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:24 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:18 pm
paṇḍaka
The term "sissy" seems to be a best fit, given context of usage, in the same way that the English word "thing" is for the word "dharma." I might be very wrong, but there's my contribution. :shrug:

May this whole awakening thing spread and prosper.

:namaste:

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