Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

dharmapdx
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Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by dharmapdx » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:24 pm

It took me the longest time to figure out what exactly I was chanting while doing gongyo. At first I thought it was Japanese, and I was excited by the prospect of actually learning another language, hoping that maybe I would have another skill to add to my resume eventually (“languages spoken: Japanese”)…. Then I came to believe that it was ancient Japanese…. Then ancient Chinese…. Then a combination of the two…. For a period I thought that maybe it was even an ancient Indian language…. I now have a grasp of what gongyo is.

Today, the thought occurred to me: does anyone do gongyo in Japanese? Not onyomi. Not shindoku. But MODERN SPOKEN JAPANESE!

I know this may sound like a weird question, but I have actually recited gongyo in english at a Nichiren Shu temple (see service manual in English, below), so I don’t think it’s too far-fetched to think that it is possible to recited in Japanese.

If anyone has a link or any info please pass it on. Would love to learn gongyo in Japanese.
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Nyedrag Yeshe
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:27 pm

dharmapdx wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:24 pm
It took me the longest time to figure out what exactly I was chanting while doing gongyo. At first I thought it was Japanese, and I was excited by the prospect of actually learning another language, hoping that maybe I would have another skill to add to my resume eventually (“languages spoken: Japanese”)…. Then I came to believe that it was ancient Japanese…. Then ancient Chinese…. Then a combination of the two…. For a period I thought that maybe it was even an ancient Indian language…. I now have a grasp of what gongyo is.

Today, the thought occurred to me: does anyone do gongyo in Japanese? Not onyomi. Not shindoku. But MODERN SPOKEN JAPANESE!

I know this may sound like a weird question, but I have actually recited gongyo in english at a Nichiren Shu temple (see service manual in English, below), so I don’t think it’s too far-fetched to think that it is possible to recited in Japanese.

If anyone has a link or any info please pass it on. Would love to learn gongyo in Japanese.
If this is the modern Nichiren Shu standard service, it has a mix of both modern Japanese and some Shindoku (which is classical Chinese with Japanese pronunciation). Usually the prayers are done in Japanese while the actual Sutra recitation and Daimoku are in Shindoku.
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།

dharmapdx
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by dharmapdx » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:41 pm

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:27 pm

If this is the modern Nichiren Shu standard service, it has a mix of both modern Japanese and some Shindoku (which is classical Chinese with Japanese pronunciation). Usually the prayers are done in Japanese while the actual Sutra recitation and Daimoku are in Shindoku.
So is this — “Kaikyoge” from the Nichiren Shu service book — actually modern-day spoken Japanese?
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Queequeg
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:42 am

dharmapdx wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:41 pm
Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:27 pm

If this is the modern Nichiren Shu standard service, it has a mix of both modern Japanese and some Shindoku (which is classical Chinese with Japanese pronunciation). Usually the prayers are done in Japanese while the actual Sutra recitation and Daimoku are in Shindoku.
So is this — “Kaikyoge” from the Nichiren Shu service book — actually modern-day spoken Japanese?
No. Not spoken Japanese. But it is modern Japanese.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by markatex » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:57 am

Yes, I assumed that was modern Japanese. We sometimes use that in English services, I assume because it’s somewhat shorter than the English translation of Kaikyoge, which is a bit too verbose, IMO.

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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by dharmapdx » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:25 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:42 am
dharmapdx wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:41 pm
Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:27 pm

If this is the modern Nichiren Shu standard service, it has a mix of both modern Japanese and some Shindoku (which is classical Chinese with Japanese pronunciation). Usually the prayers are done in Japanese while the actual Sutra recitation and Daimoku are in Shindoku.
So is this — “Kaikyoge” from the Nichiren Shu service book — actually modern-day spoken Japanese?
No. Not spoken Japanese. But it is modern Japanese.
The Japanese language never fails to confuse me…. I remember being a little boy in Japan and being confused by the fact that apparently there were three written forms of the Japanese alphabet.

May I ask … how can it be modern Japanese if it isn’t also spoken Japanese? These are of course one-and-the-same in English. Thanks. 🙏

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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:36 am

Formal written Japanese and spoken Japanese are different. Its hard to explain. Conjugation, grammar, vocabulary... different. But spoken Japanese - there are different modes - formal with the different forms for when you address people of higher, equal or lower station; conversational depending on whether you are addressing strangers, friends, family.

Its not an easy language to learn, let alone master. Few Japanese know all this stuff. Few can speak formally, properly. I'm far from fluent. I speak conversationally.

Not really a subject for this forum.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

dharmapdx
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by dharmapdx » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:25 pm

My mother actually joined Nichiren Shōshū in the 1970s, but she became frustrated when no one could explain to her what exactly it was that she was chanting. Apparently, they said to her, “It doesn’t matter what it means….” My mother left shortly thereafter. Maybe some things run in the family, as I tend to think that it actually DOES matter what one says in the practice of a religion. In Catholic school, for example, we said “Pater Noster” — and we were taught what it meant.

The Nichiren Shu booklet I shared in this thread was actually given to me by Rev. Myosho Obata at the Portland Nichiren Shu temple. I remember asking her if “kaikyoge” was shindoku or modern Japanese, and she got restless with me, if not a bit annoyed. I was given a similar answer as my mother was given back in the 1970s….

I’m sort of left scratching my head here. Why is this such a touchy topic? I really don’t think it’s ultimately that complicated (e.g., “the Nichiren liturgy consists of the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese characters”), and I am actually of the opinion that understanding the words one says — or even merely knowing WHAT LANGUAGE one is speaking — is important in one’s religious practice.

It’s a little reminiscent of the few times I have attempted to speak French to people from France. Everyone gets all touchy. Is it possible that some Japanese people may think that it is beneath them to teach Westerners the basics of Japanese, or at least to simply give a description of what type of Japanese one is speaking? I really don’t think it’s too much to ask for some understanding of what one is saying when one is practicing of religion that is based on SAYING SOMETHING: “nam-Myoho-Renge-kyo.”

This is a linguistically-based religious practice.

This is a religious practices that requires you to learn Japanese.

I am also reminded of the reception I am sometimes given when I go into stores that sell Buddhist statuary. Despite the fact that I am good looking, well educated, and always well dressed and could afford anything in the store, I always get the feeling that I’m being watched as if I may steal something…. I’ve come to believe that many people from Asia who own such stores feel a deep ambivalence about “selling” a part of their culture to Westerners. The store owners are suspicious of the motives of the Westerners — which of course makes one wonder why they have a store to begin with.

But back to my original question: does anyone know where I could find a copy of the lotus sutra in modern day spoken Japanese? Seems like an extremely on-topic question for this forum. Thanks. 🙏 (It is, of course, said that Nichiren Buddhism is the only truly Japanese form of Buddhism.)

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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by justsomeguy » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:33 pm

dharmapdx wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:25 pm
My mother actually joined Nichiren Shōshū in the 1970s, but she became frustrated when no one could explain to her what exactly it was that she was chanting. Apparently, they said to her, “It doesn’t matter what it means….” My mother left shortly thereafter. Maybe some things run in the family, as I tend to think that it actually DOES matter what one says in the practice of a religion.
I think this is just another example of how Japanese Buddhism simply has not been 'translated' very well to make sense in Western culture. Linguistics is a huge part of this, but I think it goes beyond that even. And translations often seem.. "off". The priests that bring Nichiren Buddhism here (referring to Shoshu and Shu) don't always seem well-equipped to explain things. From what I have observed, I'm not sure that it's that they are unwilling. I just don't know if they are able to explain things in a manner that would make sense to us. I take that with a grain of salt. What I do find disturbing though is the amount of Western people who seem uninterested in what they are saying/chanting/reciting and are content with "it doesn't matter what it means, just do it" It makes the practice seem so .. superficial.

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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by narhwal90 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:32 pm

I was bothered by the same thing back in the NSA days. Eventually the Watson translation of the Lotus Sutra came out which was a big improvement, but before that I met with similar explanations. Its somewhat better now with a number of translations available, and SGI gongyo books now include a translation of the two chapters.

OTOH very often when a newcomer asks what it is that we're reciting or chanting they often get the same old "in tune with the vibrations of the universe" type of answer. At least we can point to translations now.

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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by dharmapdx » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:30 pm

justsomeguy wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:33 pm

I think this is just another example of how Japanese Buddhism simply has not been 'translated' very well to make sense in Western culture. Linguistics is a huge part of this, but I think it goes beyond that even. And translations often seem.. "off". The priests that bring Nichiren Buddhism here (referring to Shoshu and Shu) don't always seem well-equipped to explain things. From what I have observed, I'm not sure that it's that they are unwilling. I just don't know if they are able to explain things in a manner that would make sense to us. I take that with a grain of salt. What I do find disturbing though is the amount of Western people who seem uninterested in what they are saying/chanting/reciting and are content with "it doesn't matter what it means, just do it" It makes the practice seem so .. superficial.
Maybe it’s difficult for Japanese teachers to admit when they don’t know something. Maybe they feel that is beneath their dignity.

This is something I tried to touch upon in this thread: viewtopic.php?t=27570 Confucianism, which apparently is obsessed with social status, is the hidden ingredient in most Buddhist organizations. I have absolutely no interest in Confucianism.

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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by justsomeguy » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:42 am

narhwal90 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:32 pm
OTOH very often when a newcomer asks what it is that we're reciting or chanting they often get the same old "in tune with the vibrations of the universe" type of answer.
I would seriously walk the F out of any meeting that started talking about vibrations of the universe. I've read some 'interesting' interpretations of Daimoku out there and why Nichiren Buddhism and chanting is beneficial, and the ones that go on about the 'magic' of sound really get me. This, though, is why we need better translation from authentic sources.

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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Caoimhghín » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:47 am

dharmapdx wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:25 am
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:42 am
dharmapdx wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:41 pm


So is this — “Kaikyoge” from the Nichiren Shu service book — actually modern-day spoken Japanese?
No. Not spoken Japanese. But it is modern Japanese.
The Japanese language never fails to confuse me…. I remember being a little boy in Japan and being confused by the fact that apparently there were three written forms of the Japanese alphabet.

May I ask … how can it be modern Japanese if it isn’t also spoken Japanese? These are of course one-and-the-same in English. Thanks. 🙏
"modern", in linguistics is a very vague term. Shakespeare is "modern" English, for instance.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

dharmapdx
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by dharmapdx » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:25 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:47 am
dharmapdx wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:25 am
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:42 am


No. Not spoken Japanese. But it is modern Japanese.
The Japanese language never fails to confuse me…. I remember being a little boy in Japan and being confused by the fact that apparently there were three written forms of the Japanese alphabet.

May I ask … how can it be modern Japanese if it isn’t also spoken Japanese? These are of course one-and-the-same in English. Thanks. 🙏
"modern", in linguistics is a very vague term. Shakespeare is "modern" English, for instance.
You knew what I meant though.

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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:50 pm

justsomeguy wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:42 am
narhwal90 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:32 pm
OTOH very often when a newcomer asks what it is that we're reciting or chanting they often get the same old "in tune with the vibrations of the universe" type of answer.
I would seriously walk the F out of any meeting that started talking about vibrations of the universe. I've read some 'interesting' interpretations of Daimoku out there and why Nichiren Buddhism and chanting is beneficial, and the ones that go on about the 'magic' of sound really get me. This, though, is we need better translation from authentic sources.
lol, yeah its kind of disheartening to hear that kind of stuff. Generally its from old-timers who have not done the homework- that kind of thing was more common in the old days but its still around. Sadly modern SGI deflects the question into considerations of individuals capacity for compassion, which is fine I guess but there is a profound lack of instruction in scholarship. The go-to response for technical questions is exclusively the Gosho and the SGI study pubs which don't go very deep.

I do have an interesting meeting coming up- I was doing toban at the local community center with my district leader who shows some signs of study outside the SGI canon. We talked a lot about such things, he invited me to a men's study group he's organizing this month and wants to bring in perspectives aside from the usual Mr. Ikeda Human Revolution material. The usual discussion meeting topics around here conform to the study pubs so I'm quite interested in how people respond.

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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Caoimhghín » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:28 pm

dharmapdx wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:25 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:47 am
dharmapdx wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:25 am

The Japanese language never fails to confuse me…. I remember being a little boy in Japan and being confused by the fact that apparently there were three written forms of the Japanese alphabet.

May I ask … how can it be modern Japanese if it isn’t also spoken Japanese? These are of course one-and-the-same in English. Thanks. 🙏
"modern", in linguistics is a very vague term. Shakespeare is "modern" English, for instance.
You knew what I meant though.
Consider modern vernacular English vs formal English. I just got hired at a court transcriptionist office, and the difference is striking. Right down to simple differences like "yup" vs "yes", which we have to "correct". Also "going to" vs "gonna", etc.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

dharmapdx
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by dharmapdx » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:33 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:28 pm
dharmapdx wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:25 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:47 am


"modern", in linguistics is a very vague term. Shakespeare is "modern" English, for instance.
You knew what I meant though.
Consider modern vernacular English vs formal English. I just got hired at a court transcriptionist office, and the difference is striking. Right down to simple differences like "yup" vs "yes", which we have to "correct". Also "going to" vs "gonna", etc.
But shindoku was never a spoken language.

“Yes” may be far more formal than “yep,” but all English speakers will understand both.

To my knowledge, only Nichiren Buddhists in Japan will understand what you mean when you say “niji seson ju san mai,” etc.

That’s the point I was making.

Shindoku has never been a spoken language.

Both “yes” and “yep” are spoken daily in the English-speaking world.

(I remember reading an article written by an Asian-American man living in Hawaii. His article was about the dwindling enrollment in Hawaiian Buddhist temples. He theorized that the younger generation is not interested in these mutant languages that are used in Buddhist temples, languages which are “neither Japanese nor Chinese.” He wrote that this sort of thing is for the conneseur, not the everyday Hawaiian.)
Last edited by dharmapdx on Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

dharmapdx
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by dharmapdx » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:42 pm

”Thirdly, the rituals, and especially their languages, remain aesthetically beautiful but often have no communicable meaning. Sutras written in classical Chinese are chanted with Japanese pronunciations that constitute a special language of its own, being neither Japanese nor Chinese. For many (including some priests), it is mumbo-jumbo. The texts themselves deserve better treatment than that, and need to be chanted in translation or some other more meaningful form. Ritual aestheticism has its attractions, but only to connoisseurs and seldom to younger people or strangers.”
https://www.patheos.com/resources/addit ... -in-hawaii

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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:55 pm

I've visited and participated in Soto and Tendai services where various sutra chapters were recited in a similar fashion to SGI and NSA before. Since they were reciting different sutras the words where all new but the cadence and pronunciation were familiar. OTOH breaths during the recitation were sometimes awkward, I get used to where to breathe.

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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Caoimhghín » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:49 pm

dharmapdx wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:33 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:28 pm
dharmapdx wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:25 am


You knew what I meant though.
Consider modern vernacular English vs formal English. I just got hired at a court transcriptionist office, and the difference is striking. Right down to simple differences like "yup" vs "yes", which we have to "correct". Also "going to" vs "gonna", etc.
But shindoku was never a spoken language.

“Yes” may be far more formal than “yep,” but all English speakers will understand both.

To my knowledge, only Nichiren Buddhists in Japan will understand what you mean when you say “niji seson ju san mai,” etc.

That’s the point I was making.

Shindoku has never been a spoken language.

Both “yes” and “yep” are spoken daily in the English-speaking world.

(I remember reading an article written by an Asian-American man living in Hawaii. His article was about the dwindling enrollment in Hawaiian Buddhist temples. He theorized that the younger generation is not interested in these mutant languages that are used in Buddhist temples, languages which are “neither Japanese nor Chinese.” He wrote that this sort of thing is for the conneseur, not the everyday Hawaiian.)
Is sindoku Chinese with antique Japanese pronunciation?
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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