Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

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Queequeg
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Queequeg »

Shindoku is more or less a way to read Chinese utilizing the onyomi. Its basically kambun.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Queequeg »

dharmapdx wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:25 pm But back to my original question: does anyone know where I could find a copy of the lotus sutra in modern day spoken Japanese? Seems like an extremely on-topic question for this forum. Thanks. 🙏 (It is, of course, said that Nichiren Buddhism is the only truly Japanese form of Buddhism.)
There are translations of the Lotus Sutra into modern Japanese. They are not in spoken Japanese because formal written Japanese and spoken Japanese follow different conventions. Its hard to explain. If you really want to understand you might want to take up Japanese language study. Japanese is a very hard language to learn and master precisely because there are different modes of the language, not to mention you need to be able to read 2000+ individual characters with their onyomi and kunyomi variations, on top of all the combinations of characters. In short, a modern Japanese translation of the Lotus Sutra will not lead to Japanese language proficiency. You would in fact need to learn Japanese first for it to make sense to you.

If you want to understand what is chanted, just read an English translation. If you feel like chanting in English, do it. Many people do that. I've heard positive experiences with that.

Kanse Capon posted a recitation of the Lotus Sutra in English on the internet a while back. Just did a google search but can't locate it right now.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Queequeg »

dharmapdx wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:33 pm mutant languages
Is Latin a mutant language?

Mahayana Sutras as they are found in East Asia are generally written in classical Chinese. Reciting sutras in shindoku is comparable to Latin Mass in a Catholic Church. I took Latin in grade school. I have a feeling my teacher was not pronouncing Latin in any form that an ancient Roman would. He was pronouncing it like a New Yorker. I can't imagine that some of those Latin portions of masses I've heard were pronounced in the Roman way either. Similarly, I don't think a classical Chinese speaker would understand my recitation of the Hoben and Juryo chapters. :shrug:

If reciting in shindouk doesn't suit you, do what does.

I'm fine with it. I like that I can sit down and recite gongyo with someone who I can't actually converse with. Its a common ritual.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

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dharmapdx wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:25 pm My mother actually joined Nichiren Shōshū in the 1970s, but she became frustrated when no one could explain to her what exactly it was that she was chanting. Apparently, they said to her, “It doesn’t matter what it means….”

The Nichiren Shu booklet I shared in this thread was actually given to me by Rev. Myosho Obata at the Portland Nichiren Shu temple. I remember asking her if “kaikyoge” was shindoku or modern Japanese, and she got restless with me, if not a bit annoyed. I was given a similar answer as my mother was given back in the 1970s….

I’m sort of left scratching my head here. Why is this such a touchy topic?
It's not that it's a touchy topic. I think there are probably a few different reasons why people get this kind of reaction when they're asking questions. Part of it might be that the people who are being asked simply don't know the answers and don't want to say so. So they get testy. Or they don't know well enough to explain it. Or they don't have enough of a command of English to explain it. Or they think you won't understand.

Another part might be personality/temperament. Some people are naturally very inquisitive. Most people are not. Non-inquisitive types can become irritated by people who constantly ask questions. To the non-inquisitive, incessant questions can seem pointless and argumentative; they wish you would just shut up and do what they tell you.
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by dharmapdx »

I was paraphrasing what the author of this article wrote: https://www.patheos.com/resources/addit ... -in-hawaii


My apology. He didn’t actually refer to Shindoku as a “mutant language,” but as “mumbo-jumbo” — which actually sounds worse.

I actually fall into the category of people he calls “connoisseurs” for whom shindoku is actually QUITE appealing. I am such a connoisseur that I would like to take it even further and learn the sutra in Japanese — and then I can chant it in two ways.
Queequeg wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:13 pm
dharmapdx wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:33 pm mutant languages
Is Latin a mutant language?

Mahayana Sutras as they are found in East Asia are generally written in classical Chinese. Reciting sutras in shindoku is comparable to Latin Mass in a Catholic Church. I took Latin in grade school. I have a feeling my teacher was not pronouncing Latin in any form that an ancient Roman would. He was pronouncing it like a New Yorker. I can't imagine that some of those Latin portions of masses I've heard were pronounced in the Roman way either. Similarly, I don't think a classical Chinese speaker would understand my recitation of the Hoben and Juryo chapters. :shrug:

If reciting in shindouk doesn't suit you, do what does.

I'm fine with it. I like that I can sit down and recite gongyo with someone who I can't actually converse with. Its a common ritual.
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by markatex »

dharmapdx wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:42 pm
”Thirdly, the rituals, and especially their languages, remain aesthetically beautiful but often have no communicable meaning. Sutras written in classical Chinese are chanted with Japanese pronunciations that constitute a special language of its own, being neither Japanese nor Chinese. For many (including some priests), it is mumbo-jumbo. The texts themselves deserve better treatment than that, and need to be chanted in translation or some other more meaningful form. Ritual aestheticism has its attractions, but only to connoisseurs and seldom to younger people or strangers.”
https://www.patheos.com/resources/addit ... -in-hawaii
I find the above kind of attitude appalling. The person who wrote this probably bitches that Van Gogh's paintings of sunflowers don't look like real sunflowers. Probably went around telling his/her classmates there was no Santa Claus, too.
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Bois de Santal »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:13 pm Reciting sutras in shindoku is comparable to Latin Mass in a Catholic Church. I took Latin in grade school. I have a feeling my teacher was not pronouncing Latin in any form that an ancient Roman would. He was pronouncing it like a New Yorker. I can't imagine that some of those Latin portions of masses I've heard were pronounced in the Roman way either.
Just as a general FYI, church latin and roman latin are two different things, perhaps as much as a thousand years apart. I've also heard that latin itself was never actually spoken - it was the written language of the romans, in the same way that sanskrit was a written language. Although I do have trouble getting my head around that idea.
Similarly, I don't think a classical Chinese speaker would understand my recitation of the Hoben and Juryo chapters. :shrug:
That's for sure! But I suspect a classical Chinese speaker would not understand a modern Chinese speaker's pronunciation of the same characters, either. Here we are talking about an even greater time lapse - at least fifteen hundred years. English, by comparison, is only around five or six hundred years old.
I'm fine with it. I like that I can sit down and recite gongyo with someone who I can't actually converse with. Its a common ritual.
Agreed. I think that is an important point.

I have a vague recollection of the latin mass, which was more or less made illegal by Vatican II back in the sixties. The mass lost most of its magic once it was conducted in the local language (english in my case). Not that that was a reason for my abandoning Catholicism, but it does mean that the mass became much less catholic for travelling/migrant Catholics who didn't speak the local language.
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Queequeg »

Picking up on the issue of not understanding what is chanted... As a daily practice I personally don't like to read in English precisely because I don't want to get hung up on the words. When I recite gongyo, its not really for the purpose of reflecting on the specific words - (The portion of the Hoben we read is basically, "Shariputra, you have no idea about my wisdom" and the Juryo Chapter is, "Maitreya, you have no idea about my life span.") Reciting these texts for me is as an offering to the Buddha and about immanentizing the ceremony in the air wherein the dharma is received. I find that focusing on the sounds is helpful to neutralize chatter in the mind and get tuned into the transmission of the teaching. That said, I've read the sutra many times, these chapters in particular, many, many times, and continue to regularly read them as my study.

Sound has certain intrinsic qualities and effects - I don't know if "tuning into the universe" is a particularly articulate way to talk about it, but I'm not dismissive of it. I'm not saying that to be argumentative, but to suggest there are ways in which gongyo at the elemental level of sound has effects. Whether one finds those beneficial is what it is. The mere literal content of what is recited is, to me, incomplete in value.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:35 pm Shindoku is more or less a way to read Chinese utilizing the onyomi. Its basically kambun.
So, is it Sanskritized Chinese grammar with Sinitic pronunciations as pronounced in older Japanese accents? Or do the Japanese insert various grammatical particles (I imagine a lot would be necessary) into the text to make it more intelligible to them?
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Queequeg »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:37 am
Queequeg wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:35 pm Shindoku is more or less a way to read Chinese utilizing the onyomi. Its basically kambun.
So, is it Sanskritized Chinese grammar with Sinitic pronunciations as pronounced in older Japanese accents? Or do the Japanese insert various grammatical particles (I imagine a lot would be necessary) into the text to make it more intelligible to them?
I don't think Kumarajiva translated like that, did he? My understanding is that he translated into readable Chinese, but I don't know that first hand (ie. I don't read classical Chinese and wouldn't know if its "Sanskritized" or not.)

There's no insertions in the Kumarajiva translation used in Japan.

Pre-modern period, formal writing was in "Chinese". Many of Nichiren's important writings are in kambun, not Japanese. His letters are in Japanese, and that was actually quite progressive of him, but then his point was about making the Lotus accessible to ordinary people.

Educated people in the premodern period learned kambun. Writing in Japanese was reserved for informal contexts. Women wrote in Japanese - See Tale of Genji and Pillow Book.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Queequeg »

Some passages that might be of interest:

Zhiyi in the Lotus Samadhi
You should make the sentences distinct and enunciate the sound [of the words] clearly. [Your recitation] should be neither too lethargic nor too hurried. Fix your attention on the text of the sutra and do not stray from the passage at hand. Mistakes are not permissible. Next you should quiet your mind and [strive to] comprehend the nature of the voice as being like an echo in an empty valley. Although the sound itself cannot be apprehended, yet the mind [is able] to illumine the meaning of every line, and the words [themselves] are spoken clearly. Visualize this sound of Dharma as spreading throughout the Dharmadhatu, [spontaneously] making offerings to the Three Jewels, giving donations to sentient beings everywhere, and causing them all to enter the realm of the single reality of the Great Vehicle
MHCK, Tr. Swanson p. 1813

This is a translation from the Japanese Nichiren Shu liturgy:
おつとめの心得
Explanation
はじめに灯明を点け、香りのよい線香を立てます。
First light the votive candles and aromatic incense.
次に、いずまいを正して、背すじをのばし、あごを引き、頭で天をさえるような心持で正坐します。
Next, sit comfortably, [drawing in your stomach] and chin, extending your spine, and holding within an aspirational disposition.
この時、全身どこにも余分な緊張がないようにゆったりと、しかもどっしりと坐るように心掛けましょう。
At this time, sit firmly, with your body solidly grounded but without being tense.
この姿勢ができますと自然に正しい呼吸法が身についてきます。そして、静かに深呼吸をくり返し身心ともに落ちついてきたら合掌礼拝し、姿勢を正して読経唱題に入ります。
Sitting in this manner, you should naturally breathe smoothly. Then, raising your hands in prayer, palms together, breathe steadily and deeply. Now you should have the right bearing to begin chanting.
この時,「この道場は、久遠の本師釈迦牟尼佛をはじめ諸仏諸菩薩、諸天善神の来臨影響したもうところであり、読誦するお経の一字一字は皆、みほとけのお姿である。」とかんじて、文々句々をはっきりと、つかえたり、間違えたりしないように、またはやすぎたり、おそすぎたりしないように、程よいテンポで朗々と唱えましょう。
At this time, contemplate, “In this place of practice, the Eternal Original Teacher Shakyamuni Buddha has from the beginning already led countless buddhas, bodhisattvas and heavenly beings to achieve the goal, and each word of the sutra that I recite is the body of the Buddha.” and sentence by sentence, verse by verse, recite the sutra in a sonorous voice, at a steady tempo that is neither too fast nor too slow, striving to avoid mistakes.
また、多人数で唱和するときは一人一人がばらばらにならないように、導師(リーダー)の調子をよく聴いて合わせるように心掛けましょう。
Again, if you are reciting with others, listen carefully to the leader and match their example to avoid becoming disjointed.
日蓮聖人は法華初心成佛鈔に「口に妙法をよびたてまつれば、わが身の佛性もよばれて必ず顕われたもう。梵王帝釈の佛性はよばれて我等を守りたもう。佛菩薩の佛性はよばれてよろこびたもう。されば、若し暫くも持つ者は、我則ち歓喜す。諸佛も亦然なり。と説きたもうはこの心なり。されば三世の諸佛の出世の本懐、一切衆生皆成佛道の妙法と言うは是なり。これらの趣をよく心得て、佛になる道には、我慢偏執の心なく南無妙法蓮華経と唱えたてまつるべきものなり。」とお説きになっています。よく味わうべきお言葉だと思います。
Nichiren Shonin wrote in the gosho Hokkeshoshinjoubutsushou, “If we call out “myouhou” (Sublime Dharma) with our mouth, we also call the Buddha Nature inherent in our being (body) which without fail is opened. The Buddha Nature of Brahma and Indra are called and protect us. The Buddha Nature of the buddha-bodhisattvas are called and delighted. The Buddha is delighted if a person upholds his law even for a short while; all the Buddhas naturally also. This is what is taught and to be taken to heart. The Sublime Dharma (myouhou) is the intension of the Buddhas of the three times who appear in the world for the original purpose of causing all beings to enter the Buddha path. "Understand this well: it is imperative that one chant namumyouhourengekyou without conceit (of self) or bias (toward received views) as one treads the path of becoming a Buddha."
Some passages I've copied and kept handy:
As a daily religious practice, one should recite the daimoku, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. Those persons who are able to do so should further recite a verse or a phrase of the Lotus Sutra. As a supplementary practice, if one wishes, one may offer praise for Shakyamuni Buddha, Many Treasures Buddha, or the Buddhas of the ten directions, for all the various bodhisattvas or the persons of the two vehicles, the heavenly beings, the dragon deities, or the eight kinds of nonhuman beings [who protect Buddhism]. Since we live in an age when there are many uninformed people, there is no need for believers to attempt at once to practice the meditation on the three thousand realms in a single moment of life, though if there are persons who wish to do so, they should learn how to practice this type of meditation and carry it out.
-On Reciting the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra
To accept, uphold, read, recite, take delight in, and protect all the eight volumes and twenty-eight chapters of the Lotus Sutra is called the comprehensive practice. To accept, uphold, and protect the “Expedient Means” chapter and the “Life Span” chapter is called the abbreviated practice. And simply to chant one four-phrase verse or the daimoku, and to protect those who do so, is called the essential practice. Hence, among these three kinds of practice, comprehensive, abbreviated, and essential, the daimoku is defined as the essential practice.
-The Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra
As for the Lotus Sutra, one may recite the entire sutra of twenty-eight chapters in eight volumes every day; or one may recite only one volume, or one chapter, or one verse, or one phrase, or one word; or one may simply chant the daimoku, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, only once a day, or chant it only once in the course of a lifetime; or hear someone else chant it only once in a lifetime and rejoice in the hearing, or rejoice in hearing the voice of someone else rejoice in the hearing, and so on in this manner to the fiftieth hearer. And if one were to be at the end, even if one’s faith were weak and one’s sense of rejoicing diluted like the frailty of a child of two or three, or the inability of a cow or horse to distinguish before from after, the blessings one would gain would be a hundred, thousand, ten thousand, million times greater than those gained by persons of keen faculties and superior wisdom who study other sutras, persons such as Shāriputra, Maudgalyāyana, Manjushrī, and Maitreya, who had committed to memory the entire texts of the various sutras…

First of all, when it comes to the Lotus Sutra, you should understand that, whether one recites all eight volumes, or only one volume, one chapter, one verse, one phrase, or simply the daimoku, or title, the blessings are the same. It is like the water of the great ocean, a single drop of which contains water from all the countless streams and rivers, or like the wish-granting jewel, which, though only a single jewel, can shower all kinds of treasures upon the wisher. And the same is true of a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, or a million such drops of water or such jewels. A single character of the Lotus Sutra is like such a drop of water or such a jewel, and the hundred million characters are like a hundred million such drops or jewels…

But to return to your question. As I said before, though no chapter of the Lotus Sutra is negligible, among the entire twenty-eight chapters, the “Expedient Means” chapter and the “Life Span” chapter are particularly outstanding. The remaining chapters are all in a sense the branches and leaves of these two chapters. Therefore, for your regular recitation, I recommend that you practice reading the prose sections of the “Expedient Means” and “Life Span” chapters. In addition, it might be well if you wrote out separate copies of these sections. The remaining twenty-six chapters are like the shadow that follows one’s body or the value inherent in a jewel. If you recite the “Life Span” and “Expedient Means” chapters, then the remaining chapters will naturally be included even though you do not recite them. It is true that the “Medicine King” and “Devadatta” chapters deal specifically with women’s attainment of Buddhahood or rebirth in the pure land. But the “Devadatta” chapter is a branch and leaf of the “Expedient Means” chapter, and the “Medicine King” chapter is a branch and leaf of the “Expedient Means” and the “LifeSpan” chapters. Therefore, you should regularly recite these two chapters, the “Expedient Means” and “Life Span” chapters. As for the remaining chapters, you may turn to them from time to time when you have a moment of leisure.
-Expedient Means and Life Span Chapters
We speak of upholding the Lotus Sutra. But although there is only one sutra, the manner in which we uphold it may vary from one period to the next. There may be times when a person literally rends his flesh and offers it to his teacher, and in this way attains Buddhahood. Or at other times a person may offer his body as a couch to his teacher, or as so much firewood. At yet other times a person may bear the blows of sticks and staves for the sake of the sutra, or may practice religious austerities or observe various precepts. And there may be times when, even though a person does the things described above, he still does not attain Buddhahood. It depends upon the time and is not something fixed.

Therefore, the Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai declared, “The method chosen should be that which accords with the time.” And the Great Teacher Chang-an said, “You should let your choices be fitting and never adhere solely to one or the other.”
-Letter to Horen
“Briefly stated, all the dharmas possessed by the Thus Come One, all the Thus Come One’s supernatural powers of self-mastery, the treasure house of all the Thus Come One’s secrets, all the Thus Come One’s profound affairs are entirely proclaimed, demonstrated, revealed, and preached in this scripture.”
Lotus Sutra Chapter 21
The characters Myoho-renge-kyo are Chinese. In India, the Lotus Sutra is called Saddharma-pundarīka-sūtra. The following is the mantra concerning the heart of the Lotus Sutra composed by the Tripitaka Master Shan-wu-wei:

namah samanta-buddhānām

om a ā am ah

sarva-buddha-jna-sākshebhyah

gagana-sambhavālakshani

saddharma-pundarīka-sūtra

jah hūm bam hoh vajrārakshaman

hūm svāhā

Hail to all the Buddhas! Three-bodied Thus Come Ones! Open the door to, show me, cause me to awaken to, and to enter into the wisdom and insight of all the Buddhas. You who are like space and who have freed yourself from form! Oh, Sutra of the White Lotus of the Correct Law! Cause me to enter into, to be everywhere within, to dwell in, and to rejoice in you. Oh, Adamantine Protector! Oh, empty, aspect-free, and desire-free sutra!

This mantra, which expresses the heart of the Lotus Sutra, was found in the iron tower in southern India. In this mantra, saddharma means “correct Law.” Sad means correct. Correct is the same as myō [wonderful]; myō is the same as correct. Hence the Lotus Sutra of the Correct Law and the Lotus Sutra of the Wonderful Law. And when the two characters for namu are prefixed to Myoho-renge-kyo, or the Lotus Sutra of the Wonderful Law, we have the formula Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
Kaimoku-sho
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Queequeg wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:48 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:37 am
Queequeg wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:35 pm Shindoku is more or less a way to read Chinese utilizing the onyomi. Its basically kambun.
So, is it Sanskritized Chinese grammar with Sinitic pronunciations as pronounced in older Japanese accents? Or do the Japanese insert various grammatical particles (I imagine a lot would be necessary) into the text to make it more intelligible to them?
I don't think Kumarajiva translated like that, did he? My understanding is that he translated into readable Chinese, but I don't know that first hand (ie. I don't read classical Chinese and wouldn't know if its "Sanskritized" or not.)

There's no insertions in the Kumarajiva translation used in Japan.

Pre-modern period, formal writing was in "Chinese". Many of Nichiren's important writings are in kambun, not Japanese. His letters are in Japanese, and that was actually quite progressive of him, but then his point was about making the Lotus accessible to ordinary people.

Educated people in the premodern period learned kambun. Writing in Japanese was reserved for informal contexts. Women wrote in Japanese - See Tale of Genji and Pillow Book.
Ah, when I talked about "the Japanese insert various grammatical particles (I imagine a lot would be necessary) into the text to make it more intelligible to them," I should have offered this example:

敬宮愛子内親王
Toshi no Miya Aiko Naishinnō


There is no の written in the above writing, but it is understood implicitly because educated Japanese know to insert it into the Kanji, that's the phenomenon I meant.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:00 am
Queequeg wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:48 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:37 am

So, is it Sanskritized Chinese grammar with Sinitic pronunciations as pronounced in older Japanese accents? Or do the Japanese insert various grammatical particles (I imagine a lot would be necessary) into the text to make it more intelligible to them?
I don't think Kumarajiva translated like that, did he? My understanding is that he translated into readable Chinese, but I don't know that first hand (ie. I don't read classical Chinese and wouldn't know if its "Sanskritized" or not.)

There's no insertions in the Kumarajiva translation used in Japan.

Pre-modern period, formal writing was in "Chinese". Many of Nichiren's important writings are in kambun, not Japanese. His letters are in Japanese, and that was actually quite progressive of him, but then his point was about making the Lotus accessible to ordinary people.

Educated people in the premodern period learned kambun. Writing in Japanese was reserved for informal contexts. Women wrote in Japanese - See Tale of Genji and Pillow Book.
Ah, when I talked about "the Japanese insert various grammatical particles (I imagine a lot would be necessary) into the text to make it more intelligible to them," I should have offered this example:

敬宮愛子内親王
Toshi no Miya Aiko Naishinnō


There is no の written in the above writing, but it is understood implicitly because educated Japanese know to insert it into the Kanji, that's the phenomenon I meant.
For instance, the の would be one of those grammatical particles. While 敬宮愛子内親王 is a perfectly reasonable construction in Literary Chinese, in order to really make sense in Japanese you need this の which functions vaguely like "of" or a genitive apostrophe-S.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Bois de Santal wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:37 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:13 pm Reciting sutras in shindoku is comparable to Latin Mass in a Catholic Church. I took Latin in grade school. I have a feeling my teacher was not pronouncing Latin in any form that an ancient Roman would. He was pronouncing it like a New Yorker. I can't imagine that some of those Latin portions of masses I've heard were pronounced in the Roman way either.
Just as a general FYI, church latin and roman latin are two different things, perhaps as much as a thousand years apart. I've also heard that latin itself was never actually spoken - it was the written language of the romans, in the same way that sanskrit was a written language. Although I do have trouble getting my head around that idea.
You have accidentally said a super-wrong thing, but don't worry, it happens to everyone. Obviously myself included.

I think what you were perhaps misremembering was that for most of the Roman Empire, Greek was the language of the majority of the people, with Latin being restricted to the areas immediately around Rome and in Rome itself. The decline of the Roman Empire and the fall into the Middle Ages is accompanied by an influx of Germanic peoples who learned Latin with their various Germanic-language accents (that's how Latin turns into something as phonetically wild as French, a foreign language influencing Latin until a Romance ("Roman") child-language is formed, namely French, or Spanish, etc.), and a general decline in Greek, which flourishes in the Eastern Empire.

For instance, in The Passion of the Christ, the Roman soldiers should have been speaking Greek, not Latin.
Bois de Santal wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:37 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:13 pmSimilarly, I don't think a classical Chinese speaker would understand my recitation of the Hoben and Juryo chapters. :shrug:
That's for sure! But I suspect a classical Chinese speaker would not understand a modern Chinese speaker's pronunciation of the same characters, either. Here we are talking about an even greater time lapse - at least fifteen hundred years. English, by comparison, is only around five or six hundred years old.
To add to the above, consider this trippy fact: Venerable Kumārajīva's Chinese did not necessarily have tones!

:jawdrop:

He's right around tonogenesis.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by Queequeg »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:00 am 敬宮愛子内親王
Toshi no Miya Aiko Naishinnō


There is no の written in the above writing, but it is understood implicitly because educated Japanese know to insert it into the Kanji, that's the phenomenon I meant.
Oh, OK. I guess we are talking about Japanese language.

That's a name, isn't it? And a formal name with title... for an aristocrat? That's a special case.

But there are instances like that, but not in kambun, Japanese reading of Chinese. That example follows Japanese conventions.

Its confusing because those are all Chinese characters - but they are given Japanese readings. It depends on context whether the Japanese or Chinese reading is applicable. Some proper names can be either...

For instance, the Temple where Nichiren first studied as a boy is 清澄寺 The Chinese reading is Seichoji. The Japanese reading is Kiyosumidera. I guess in formal contexts you would use the Chinese reading. In informal contexts, it would be the Japanese reading.

Just as another simple example - 山 that means mountain. The Onyomi (Sino-Japanese reading) is "san" and is similar to the modern Chinese pronunciation "shan". The Japanese reading, or kunyomi, is "yama". The context determines whether its a Japanese or Chinese reading.

富士山 Fujisan or Mt. Fuji
岡山 Okayama - the name of a prefecture.

As I wrote - very complicated and difficult language.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Gongyo in Japanese (not shindoku/onyomi)?

Post by dharmapdx »

Not surprisingly, given the complexity of this issue, I think there have been some misunderstandings….

1. I am fully aware that there are translations in the liturgy book. I know what the sutra means in English.
2. I actually enjoy chanting in shindoku/onyomi/kambun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanbun

I think that the issue at hand is that I got delusions of grandeur. Being able to memorize the sutra gave me delusions that I could then extrapolate from that and eventually learn Japanese. For analogy, I have heard of people from Latin America who — as difficult to believe as it may be — have learned the English language from watching television. I suppose I had thought that I could learn Japanese as a result of memorizing the sutra.

It was very confusing, and in fact sort of still is, to realize that in fact I was not learning Japanese. It really doesn’t make any sense that Japanese Buddhist chant in Japan in a language that is not “Japanese.” Or, at least, it’s not linear.

So, I have decided to do exactly what you have mentioned: simply attempt to learn the Japanese language by taking classes and reading books, etc. Apparently, “extrapolation” is not possible here.

I actually did learn some Japanese words and writing when I was a little boy in Japan. So it’s interesting to go through beginners manuals now and recalled the various characters I had learned.

Queequeg wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:50 pm
dharmapdx wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:25 pm But back to my original question: does anyone know where I could find a copy of the lotus sutra in modern day spoken Japanese? Seems like an extremely on-topic question for this forum. Thanks. 🙏 (It is, of course, said that Nichiren Buddhism is the only truly Japanese form of Buddhism.)
There are translations of the Lotus Sutra into modern Japanese. They are not in spoken Japanese because formal written Japanese and spoken Japanese follow different conventions. Its hard to explain. If you really want to understand you might want to take up Japanese language study. Japanese is a very hard language to learn and master precisely because there are different modes of the language, not to mention you need to be able to read 2000+ individual characters with their onyomi and kunyomi variations, on top of all the combinations of characters. In short, a modern Japanese translation of the Lotus Sutra will not lead to Japanese language proficiency. You would in fact need to learn Japanese first for it to make sense to you.

If you want to understand what is chanted, just read an English translation. If you feel like chanting in English, do it. Many people do that. I've heard positive experiences with that.

Kanse Capon posted a recitation of the Lotus Sutra in English on the internet a while back. Just did a google search but can't locate it right now.
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