How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

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bcol01
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How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by bcol01 »

I have heard many ppl say that the Lotus Sutra is not the words of the Buddha. I have heard that Nichiren's form of Buddhism isn't even Buddhism at all because it contrasts so much with early Buddhist teachings.

I'd love to hear your thoughts and insights. Btw, happy New Year to you all! My deepest gratitude and warmest wishes to you all. **Gassho**
In his writing, Hokkemongu (Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra), The Great Master Nichiren said, “If the practitioners of the Lotus Sutra wholeheartedly devote their life to the Lotus Sutra and practice according to its golden words, it is certainly needless to say that not only in the next life, but also in this lifetime they will overcome severe difficulty, prolong their life, receive the great, good fortune of unsurpassed enlightenment, and accomplish the great vow of the widespread, propagation of True Buddhism.”
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

From another often maligned tradition, patience. Think "such are his conditions" and return to your practice. 9 times out of 10, no good will come from engaging.
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

There is not a point to argue or discuss to be honest. Theravadins think whole Vajrayana and probably even most of Mahayana sutras (atleast) are fake. :D You cannot really change their opinion. Either they grow into it or they dont. Easy as that. It is better to be silent and as Monlam has said develop patience.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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For those who do non-virtuous actions,
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bcol01
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by bcol01 »

I'm trying to figure out how to respond to their objections.
Like, why should I believe that the Lotus Sutra is the teachings of the Buddha?
Monlam Tharchin wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:29 pm From another often maligned tradition, patience. Think "such are his conditions" and return to your practice. 9 times out of 10, no good will come from engaging.
In his writing, Hokkemongu (Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra), The Great Master Nichiren said, “If the practitioners of the Lotus Sutra wholeheartedly devote their life to the Lotus Sutra and practice according to its golden words, it is certainly needless to say that not only in the next life, but also in this lifetime they will overcome severe difficulty, prolong their life, receive the great, good fortune of unsurpassed enlightenment, and accomplish the great vow of the widespread, propagation of True Buddhism.”
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by Bois de Santal »

bcol01 wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:05 pm I'm trying to figure out how to respond to their objections.
Like, why should I believe that the Lotus Sutra is the teachings of the Buddha?
As Miroku indicated there has long been discussion within buddhism as to the correctness of different parts of the canon (to put it delicately.) What is undisputable is that the development of buddhist teachings came about over centuries and depended upon profound meditation and much debate. This stuff wasn't just made up.

It is true that there is no extant copy of the Lotus Sutra that can be dated from before 200 CE. On the other hand, if we take the list of the 24 successors of Shakyamuni as being valid, and that they transmitted the teachings of the Buddha correctly for their time and country then Mahayana would be a logical development of Theravada and the Lotus Sutra the pinnacle of Mahayana in India. The Lotus Sutra certainly appeared during this time. For example, Vasubandhu, the 21st patriarch, wrote a treatise on the Lotus Sutra.

Zhi Yi certainly thought the Lotus Sutra and the Mahayana was genuine and he took things one step further, organizing all the sutras into a coherent whole, identifying the Lotus Sutra as the most important of all the Buddha' teachings.

Neither Nichiren nor Zhi Yi had access to modern dating techniques so they had to initially take things on trust. But they then studied them deeply so that they understood perfectly what was intended and made the teachings their own. They then contributed this understanding to future generations. Fortunately their teachings were written down (often in his own hand, in the case of Nichiren) so we are are more solid ground there.

While writing this up I came across this link: https://tricycle.org/magazine/lotus-sutra-history/ which goes into this subject in much more detail.
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

What the Buddha taught was a dharma that leads to the end of suffering and the causes of suffering.
His words were not written down until a century after he died,
some 5,000 miles south of where he spoke them.
and in a language he never used.
There is no "proof" that he ever taught anything that has been attributed to him.

Who first struck rocks and wood together to produce sparks and fire?
Nobody knows.
Yet, even today, a common cigarette lighter works the same way, and produces the same result.
What has been handed down over the centuries are methods that produce the same result:
Meditation, chanting, visualization, and so on.

If one argues that none of these methods-as-practiced-today are valid because they can't be found in sutras,
then that's practically the same as saying only the Buddha could become enlightened.

If you or I were to somehow invent a cheese sandwich that leads to the perfect cessation of suffering and its causes
then this cheese sandwich would also be valid Buddha-Dharma
even though the historical Buddha may have never made a cheese sandwich.

Can Practicing Nichiren Buddhism lead to the perfect cessation of suffering and its causes?
I don't know. I don't follow that tradition.
If it can, then it is valid Buddhism.
.
.
.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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明安 Myoan
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

:good: :good: for both above.

Faith/confidence is the foundation that we rely upon to help ourselves and to save all beings from suffering.
Such a compassionate aspiration has nothing to do with opinions or historical guesswork.
Either we apply the teaching and see the fruits in our own lives, or we don't.

Sometimes doubts can make you stop practicing. But how will you ever know the teaching is valid if you don't see for yourself?

When someone upsets us, that's where the fruit of practice really becomes apparent.
Beings, with all their faults, are unconditionally and unceasingly loved by the buddhas.
What is our response in comparison?
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by DewachenVagabond »

There may be no physical copy of the Lotus Sutra that dates back to before 200 CE, but, really, there are hardly any copies of any sutras going back to that date. The earliest fragments of Pali suttas only go back to the 5th/6th century. Part of the reason is climate and time. Physical texts simply do not last that long.

Just because there are no physical texts that are dateable before 200 CE does not mean that it didn't exist prior to that. In order to accurately date the sutras, you have to rely on other methods, like textual analysis including of things like grammar. The composition of the Lotus Sutra is believed to have been anywhere between the 1st century BCE and the second century CE. The first Chinese translation was in the 3rd century CE. It is entirely possible (even probable) that the text was composed at least a century before then, if not two or three centuries before. This makes the Lotus Sutra potentially one of the oldest Mahayana sutras.

I'm not going to comment on the teachings of Nichiren specifically, as it isn't my tradition and I don't know enough about it, but the teachings in the Lotus Sutra itself are largely fundamental to the Mahayana as a whole, whether Sakyamuni literally spoke the sutra or not. Therefore, unless you reject the Mahayana, I don't think it is reasonable to reject the Lotus Sutra.
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by Queequeg »

bcol01 wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:09 pm I have heard many ppl say that the Lotus Sutra is not the words of the Buddha. I have heard that Nichiren's form of Buddhism isn't even Buddhism at all because it contrasts so much with early Buddhist teachings.

I'd love to hear your thoughts and insights. Btw, happy New Year to you all! My deepest gratitude and warmest wishes to you all. **Gassho**
Happy New Year!

1. Whatever is true is the Buddha's speech.
2. The Lotus Sutra is the text we have identified by that name, its also the name of the Buddha's deepest knowledge. If the Lotus Sutra is false, then the Buddha is false.
3. Whatever we have that are so-called "early Buddhist teachings" were committed to writing long after the Mahayana texts were recorded in writing. What are the words of the Buddha? No one alive can say. All we have are the reports handed down to us. Ultimately, we have to determine truth for ourselves by penetrating the teachings and knowing for ourselves. I would question whether someone questioning the authenticity of the Lotus or any Mahayana sutra has any direct knowledge and understanding of the text for themselves. If not, then they have no compelling grounds for their opinion. If they do and they still question, I'd question whether they understood the texts because such concerns with literal authenticity are actually beside the point from the Mahayana perspective.
4. As to Nichiren specifically, I'd question what they know about early Buddhist teaching and Nichiren.
5. I'd be a bit amused at the BCE cosplay.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by illarraza »

Miroku wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:47 pm There is not a point to argue or discuss to be honest. Theravadins think whole Vajrayana and probably even most of Mahayana sutras (atleast) are fake. :D You cannot really change their opinion. Either they grow into it or they dont. Easy as that. It is better to be silent and as Monlam has said develop patience.
Hi Miroku. Did Nichiren ever fail to speak out?

"Therefore if I, Nichiren, fearful of the world, should fail to speak out, I would be the enemy of the Buddha. Hence the Great Teacher Chang-an has delivered his warning to students of the latter age, saying: “One who destroys or brings confusion to the Buddha’s teachings is betraying them. If one befriends another person but lacks the mercy to correct him, one is in fact his enemy. But one who reprimands and corrects an offender . . . is acting as his parent.”

I have taken these words of Chang-an’s commentary thoroughly to heart, and therefore I risk my life to speak out in reprimand. I remember that Āryadeva, the fourteenth successor to Shakyamuni’s teachings, was murdered, and Aryasimha the twenty-fifth successor, had his head cut off."

Even at the cost of our life we must speak out. However, there are millions of disbelievers and only a few of us. Nichiren picked his fights. He couldn't save or repudiate everybody face to face. Through his writings he touched many people, both believers and apostates.
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by illarraza »

bcol01 wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:05 pm I'm trying to figure out how to respond to their objections.
Like, why should I believe that the Lotus Sutra is the teachings of the Buddha?
Monlam Tharchin wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:29 pm From another often maligned tradition, patience. Think "such are his conditions" and return to your practice. 9 times out of 10, no good will come from engaging.
Hi bcol!

Stace: Hi Mark. Did you read his article on “How the Mahayana Began”? He points out that in the essay you provide the “Corruption” of the Pali texts. The same could be applied to the Mahayana. Can you tell How this is possible: Chapter 10: The Teacher of the Law – This chapter presents the five practices of the teachers of the Lotus Sutra. These practices are accepting and upholding, reading, chanting, explaining and writing the Sutra. The Sutra begins, “Thus I Have Heard”. Ananda ,the Buddhas attendant recalling verbally, (orally) what the Buddha said. How and why would the Buddha then instruct the “hearers” of this sutra to READ and; WRITE it?

Mark: I just read it. I’m sure you are aware of one of the honorific titles of the Buddha, that of Omniscience. Gombrich disagrees with Rys David, whether “books” were mentioned in the canon. Let me say that it is probable that the Buddha who talked about the decline, not only of his teachings but of the capacities of individuals, would have realized that one day his words would be lost unless they were written down. Tientai and Nichiren taught that the Lotus Sutra was not ostensibly taught for the people of the Middle Day, let alone for the people of the Former Day. Why would anyone believe that such capable monks who could memorize thousands of lines of oral texts were incapable of keeping secret, a teaching meant for a later time? These were highly disciplined men, unlike our present day politicians and heads of state who have successfully kept secrets [documents] for hundreds or even thousands of years. This is hardly an anomally but rather a misunderstanding of the greatness of the Buddha and his followers.

Stace: Other anomalies in the sutra are the use of the term Hinayana and Mahayana. In the Buddha’s time there was only the Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. No distinction of any Yanas. How could these terms be uttered by the Buddha or his followers when they hadn’t yet been created and would have no meaning?

Mark: Nearly the entire Buddhist Canon is devoted to correcting wrong thought. It is only natural that the words “Hinayana” and “Mahayana” were inserted when these words came into being. They don’t change one iota the words, “superficial thought and its adherents” and “superior thought and its adherents”, of the Buddha. This argument that anything was added too, is not tenable.

Stace: You wrote, “By the way, what I was referring to in the original post is the contention of some that the “Nikayas” are the actual words of the Buddha while the Lotus Sutra is not.”

All he is talking about are “corruptions” of the pali. I don’t see him addressing the validity of the Lotus Sutra as the actual words of the Buddha. This is what I thought, read “How the Mahayana Began”. He doesn’t necessariy refute your position.

Mark: Not him, others. Gombrich, in many ways supports our position. That is why I cited him, even though his understanding of the mind of the Buddha and the nature of the Sangha is incomplete.

Stace: You state that my summation is in err that SGI is a legitimate form of Buddhism in accord with teachings of Nichiren. I am arguing that “Nichiren Buddhism” and any lineage born from his teaching is valid because of the arguments put forth in the article you present so long as the purpose is Liberation.

Mark: I am very sorry if anyone misconstrues that the import of citing this article in any way supports the validity of Ikedaism and Gakkaism. Of course, this was not my intent. You know Stace, I don’t consider SGI to be Buddhism even though it has borrowed extensively from Buddhism. No Buddha, no Buddhahood is my contention.

Stace: I base it off of this excerpt:

”These processes are not random (adhicca-samuppanna) but causally determined. Any empirical phenomenon is seen as a causal sequence, and that applies to the sāsana too. ‘One thing leads to another,’ as the English idiom has it. Whether or not we can see features common to the religion of Mr Richard Causton, the late leader of the UK branch of Soka Gakkai International,(we could add here Kempon Hokke or any other Nichiren based group) and that of Nāgārjuna, or of the Buddha himself, there is a train of human events which causally connects them. Buddhism is not an inert object: it is a chain of events.” PG.3

Mark: Devedatta and Shakyamuni were causally connected. That Gombrich fails to see this [that SGI is to Buddhism as Devedatta was to Shakyamuni] relates to his inability to know the mind of the Buddha.

Stace: Anyway, I do not think the article you presented puts forth the superiority of any teaching over the other but simply points out that there are things in the canon which were added and that this to be understood in an orally preserved teaching, but we can separate the wheat for the chaff and know what the buddha said.

Mark: How much harder is it to know what the Buddha meant and to know the reality of the Buddha?

Stace: I cannot, I mean physically cannot, force my brain to take most religious statement literally and therefor will never be a true believer. I love Dharma and Liberation wherever it be found, as there are so many flowers and scents to delight our senses I believe there are many pathways to liberation. I do not doubt the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren offer such a pathway but I will never believe that it is the only door.

Mark: According to the Lotus Sutra itself and Nichiren, it is the only pathway out of the burning house. Certainly, a living High Priest or mentor in the seat of the Law is not the pathway. The only living mentor in the seat of the Law is Shakyamuni Buddha.

"Modern editors of the Pali Canon, however, have generally contented themselves with trying to establish a textus receptus or ‘received text’. Let me explain. Most of our physical evidence for the Pali Canon is astonishingly recent, far more recent than our physical evidence for the western classical and biblical texts.

While talking of this, I want to take the opportunity to correct a mistake in something I published earlier this year. In Professor K. R. Norman’s splendid revision of Geiger’s Pali Grammar, published by the Pali Text Society (Geiger, 1994), I wrote an introduction called ‘What is Pali?’ (Gombrich, 1994a). In that I wrote (p. xxv) that a Kathmandu manuscript of c.800 A.D. is ‘the oldest substantial piece of written Pali to survive’ if we except the inscriptions from Devnimori and Ratnagiri, which differ somewhat in phonetics from standard Pali. This is wrong. One can quibble about what ‘substantial’ means; but it must surely include a set of twenty gold leaves found in the Khin Ba Gôn trove near Śrī Ketra, Burma, by Duroiselle in 1926-7. The leaves are inscribed with eight excerpts from the Pali Canon. Professor Harry Falk has now dated them, on paleographic grounds, to the second half of the fifth century A.D., which makes them by far the earliest physical evidence for the Pali canonical texts (Stargardt, 1995). -- Richard F. Gombrich

Therefore, according to this reliable information, the Sanskrit text of the Lotus Sutra is older than the Pali texts that the Hinayana Buddhists arrogantly claim to be the only authoritative texts of what the Buddha actually taught.

"It is now clear that none of the existing Buddhist collections of early Indian scriptures—not the Pali, Sanskrit, Chinese, nor even the Gandhari—“can be privileged as the most authentic or original words of the Buddha.” -- Linda Heuman

"Only the Lotus Sutra represents the wonderful teaching preached directly from the golden mouth of Shakyamuni Buddha, who is perfectly endowed with the three bodies." -- Nichiren Daishonin

There are various teaching methods employed by the Buddha in the Lotus Sutra: simile; metaphor; parable [of which there are seven]; skillful or expedient means; logic; historical precedent; narration [current events and prior birth stories]; questions and answers; and most importantly, a direct exposition of his Enlightenment. When studying the Lotus Sutra one can reflect, "here the Buddha is speaking of his experience in a previous existence and here the Buddha is answering the question of Sariputra", etc. Are there worlds where the Buddha actually experienced parthenogenesis as the physiological method of reproducing the species or is it a metaphor or is it something else? Is the Treasure Tower a metaphor only? Bodhisattvas 500 feet tall on other worlds? Flying cars? Some things are fruitless to question or contemplate and the Buddha was silent.

Lastly the principle of Ichinen Sanzen is unsurpassed whether theoretical, the 3000 Realms in a Momentary Existence of Life of person, society, and environment simultaneously and the reality of Actual Ichinen Sanzen [the Daimoku and the Gohonzon]. Let me expound a bit more on the Lotus Sutra and other religious faiths:

Each person, society, and environment, even the Buddha's land has a defiled and pure aspect. When the pure aspect is manifest we speak in terms of Enlightenment. When the defiled aspect manifests, we speak of delusion. Were there not the inferior teachings to contrast with the Lotus Sutra there would be no way of ascertaining the truth. Likewise, were there no deluded teachers, we could never come to know the merits and virtues of Shakyamuni Buddha and Nichiren Daishonin, teachers without peer.

Generally, those who have faith in and practice the Lotus Sutra are Bodhisattvas of the Earth. Specifically, Nichiren Daishonin is the Supreme Votary of the Lotus Sutra. Generally we are all Buddhas but specifically, from a deeper sense, Shakyamuni Buddha is the Original Eternal Buddha. From the deepest sense, we are the Three Bodied Tathagata of Original Enlightenment, Shakyamuni Buddha ourselves. Nichiren teaches that this most difficult to believe and most difficult to understand teaching should not be bandied about lightly. In our mundane thoughts and activities, it is best to think in terms of the general meaning, having gratitude for and giving praise to the Lotus Sutra [Law], Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni and Nichiren Daishonin. Similar reasonings can be given in the case of our relationship to the Law. Generally, everyone is a manifestation of the Mystic Law, even a dust mite. Specifically, Shakyamuni Buddha and Nichiren Daishonin are those who are one with the Mystic Law. There is a saying derived from the Infinite Meanings Sutra, the introduction to the Lotus Sutra: "Infinite meanings derive from the one Law." Equally, infinite phenomena derive from the one Law.

Even Nichiren Daishonin and the Buddha couldn't convert everyone. "To the best of our ability" while employing the strategy of the Lotus Sutra and the wisdom of the Buddha is the means outlined by the Buddha and Nichiren Daishonin to awaken the masses of beings. The Three Proofs, documentary, theoretical, and actual is what will capture other's attention. For example, in converting a Christian or Muslim, documentary proof is comparing and contrasting the Bible or Q'uran with the Lotus Sutra. Theoretical proof is pointing out the reasonableness and sound logic of such concepts as the Mutual Possession of the Ten Worlds and 3000 Realms in a Momentary Existence of Life [Ichinen Sanzen], and the functioning of the Law of Cause and effect. Proof of actual fact is the joy of practicing this teaching, overcoming our limitations and pointing out the hellish reality of a society based on Judeo-Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and even scientific rationalism.
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by Queequeg »

Svaha.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by dude »

In practical terms, I think the first thing to keep in mind is that people who badmouth the teachings are to be expected. When you do this practice, they always appear.
Second, as has been said above, we should have compassion for them, and some very deep compassion. The reason is that by slandering the Law they create worse karma than the human mind can fathom.
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by dude »

Sonam Tashi : Thank you very much for a very interesting post.
It is an honor to meet you.
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by dude »

Padma von Samba :
Excellent and logical. I agree with all.
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by illarraza »

dude wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:17 am In practical terms, I think the first thing to keep in mind is that people who badmouth the teachings are to be expected. When you do this practice, they always appear.
Second, as has been said above, we should have compassion for them, and some very deep compassion. The reason is that by slandering the Law they create worse karma than the human mind can fathom.
Good point!

Mark
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by illarraza »

dude wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:17 am In practical terms, I think the first thing to keep in mind is that people who badmouth the teachings are to be expected. When you do this practice, they always appear.
Second, as has been said above, we should have compassion for them, and some very deep compassion. The reason is that by slandering the Law they create worse karma than the human mind can fathom.
Yet, by the doctrine of the "poison drum", they create a relationship to the Sutra and are thus guaranteed of attaining Buddhahood (at some time in the future).

Mark
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Re: How do we respond to people who discredit Nichiren Buddhism?

Post by dude »

Also true, of course.
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