if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

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Queequeg
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

Post by Queequeg »

tkp67 wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 2:22 pm First, Nichiren does discuss stages of development and points to particular sources. This would lead me to believe that he expected people to develop relative to their causes, conditions and capacities.
See Four Depths of Faith and Five Stages of Practice.

Nichiren believed that he was, on one hand, at the stage of "Hearing the Name", the second of six stages of development.

Alternatively, he also speculated that he was among the Bodhisattvas of the Earth, if not Jogyo (Visistacaritra), which would mean he was an advanced bodhisattva - far beyond development of even Manjusri, Samatabhadra, Maitreya, etc.

These two positions are not really in conflict from the perspective of the Sudden and Perfect. Just as Shakyamuni displayed birth, awakening, teaching, and then death, so too are the people who practice Dharma merely demonstrating expressions of awakening, namely the path to awakening/cause of awakening, for the benefit of beings. This makes the cause of awakening really the effect of awakening... its one of these regressing rabbit holes of logic we tend to find in Dharma demonstrating the immeasurability of reality.

Grok that. We are, as it is, in the realm of immeasurable, the boundless, the unarisen, the uncreated, the inconceivable. The limitations we perceive are arbitrary and fictional, while still carrying effect. Grokking is the point. Meditation, chanting, study, contemplation, reflection, ritual purification, etc. these are means of preparing the mind to grok. In the meantime, we accept it on faith and proceed accordingly taking real action in this life confident that what the Buddha teaches about reality is true.

But back to the stages - Nichiren also implicitly accepted the 52 stages of enlightenment at times utilized by Zhiyi. Zhiyi asserted that he wasn't even on the first stage, and was still at the second or thirds stage of preliminary purification. I don't recall where Nichiren placed himself on that measure of advancement.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

Post by LastLegend »

Queequeg wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 4:43 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 2:22 pm First, Nichiren does discuss stages of development and points to particular sources. This would lead me to believe that he expected people to develop relative to their causes, conditions and capacities.
See Four Depths of Faith and Five Stages of Practice.

Nichiren believed that he was, on one hand, at the stage of "Hearing the Name", the second of six stages of development.

Alternatively, he also speculated that he was among the Bodhisattvas of the Earth, if not Jogyo (Visistacaritra), which would mean he was an advanced bodhisattva - far beyond development of even Manjusri, Samatabhadra, Maitreya, etc.

These two positions are not really in conflict from the perspective of the Sudden and Perfect. Just as Shakyamuni displayed birth, awakening, teaching, and then death, so too are the people who practice Dharma merely demonstrating expressions of awakening, namely the path to awakening/cause of awakening, for the benefit of beings. This makes the cause of awakening really the effect of awakening... its one of these regressing rabbit holes of logic we tend to find in Dharma demonstrating the immeasurability of reality.

Grok that. We are, as it is, in the realm of immeasurable, the boundless, the unarisen, the uncreated, the inconceivable. The limitations we perceive are arbitrary and fictional, while still carrying effect.
Grokking is the point. Meditation, chanting, study, contemplation, reflection, ritual purification, etc. these are means of preparing the mind to grok. In the meantime, we accept it on faith and proceed accordingly taking real action in this life confident that what the Buddha teaches about reality is true.

But back to the stages - Nichiren also implicitly accepted the 52 stages of enlightenment at times utilized by Zhiyi. Zhiyi asserted that he wasn't even on the first stage, and was still at the second or thirds stage of preliminary purification. I don't recall where Nichiren placed himself on that measure of advancement.
It’s true and that what Buddha taught is about our mind whether suffering with wisdom or suffering without wisdom.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

Post by Minobu »

Well Golly GEEE SHAZZAM finally someone who knows
LastLegend wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 3:56 pm
It’s not simplistic. However, if you have great expectations of what actual enlightenment is you might run into disappointment. Not just you many others as well.
yeah i know it's actually no big whoop ! .
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

Post by Minobu »

:tongue: :popcorn: :tongue:
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

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Minobu wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 9:45 pm Well Golly GEEE SHAZZAM finally someone who knows
LastLegend wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 3:56 pm
It’s not simplistic. However, if you have great expectations of what actual enlightenment is you might run into disappointment. Not just you many others as well.
yeah i know it's actually no big whoop ! .
We have to take small steps...sure there will a few siddhis here and there, and that’s more of correspondence with mind of Bodhisattvas and Buddhas. We will know things naturally that we’ve never learned before.
Make personal vows.

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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

Post by tkp67 »

Queequeg wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 4:43 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 2:22 pm First, Nichiren does discuss stages of development and points to particular sources. This would lead me to believe that he expected people to develop relative to their causes, conditions and capacities.
See Four Depths of Faith and Five Stages of Practice.

Nichiren believed that he was, on one hand, at the stage of "Hearing the Name", the second of six stages of development.

Alternatively, he also speculated that he was among the Bodhisattvas of the Earth, if not Jogyo (Visistacaritra), which would mean he was an advanced bodhisattva - far beyond development of even Manjusri, Samatabhadra, Maitreya, etc.

These two positions are not really in conflict from the perspective of the Sudden and Perfect. Just as Shakyamuni displayed birth, awakening, teaching, and then death, so too are the people who practice Dharma merely demonstrating expressions of awakening, namely the path to awakening/cause of awakening, for the benefit of beings. This makes the cause of awakening really the effect of awakening... its one of these regressing rabbit holes of logic we tend to find in Dharma demonstrating the immeasurability of reality.

Grok that. We are, as it is, in the realm of immeasurable, the boundless, the unarisen, the uncreated, the inconceivable. The limitations we perceive are arbitrary and fictional, while still carrying effect. Grokking is the point. Meditation, chanting, study, contemplation, reflection, ritual purification, etc. these are means of preparing the mind to grok. In the meantime, we accept it on faith and proceed accordingly taking real action in this life confident that what the Buddha teaches about reality is true.

But back to the stages - Nichiren also implicitly accepted the 52 stages of enlightenment at times utilized by Zhiyi. Zhiyi asserted that he wasn't even on the first stage, and was still at the second or thirds stage of preliminary purification. I don't recall where Nichiren placed himself on that measure of advancement.
Another excellent post. I have recently read the goshos mentioned.

To the last paragraph with the whole of post in mind. While Nichiren "toys" with his own state of enlightenment he is sure to identify Zhiyi as Bodhisattva medicine king.

This leads me to believe that while his own enlightenment was unfolding as did Shakyamuni's, they where subliminally working in accord with the Lotus Sutra all along.
.
The profundity of this practice is such that it never ceases to impress me, and the minds in succession that have brought it thus far.

Beyond my ability to comprehend but not beyond my ability to recognize as much dedicate this existence out of respect for such benevolence without a desire for more than has already been shared.

I am a very broken and incomplete individual. Attainment, enlightement, buddhahood, bodhisattva nature and the such are the things great men and women accomplish. I am not one of them. Understanding and commitment. Well I can do that, chant and try to pay back my debt.

Maybe and most sincerely I am doing it wrong but you know I am sustained by that I am even doing it. I never really wanted anything from existence other than to help others and I was not a part of the equation. In this practice I am a central component of that equation so the "view from here" is so much better than what it was before but still it is all relative to my own causes, conditions and capacity.

:anjali:

Beautiful day out here I hope this find everyone well

NMRK
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

Post by Queequeg »

tkp67 wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 11:31 pm I am sustained by that I am even doing it.
Isn't that the definition of faith? Me, too.

:smile:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

Post by Minobu »

LastLegend wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 10:49 pm
Minobu wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 9:45 pm Well Golly GEEE SHAZZAM finally someone who knows
LastLegend wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 3:56 pm
It’s not simplistic. However, if you have great expectations of what actual enlightenment is you might run into disappointment. Not just you many others as well.
yeah i know it's actually no big whoop ! .
We have to take small steps...sure there will a few siddhis here and there, and that’s more of correspondence with mind of Bodhisattvas and Buddhas. We will know things naturally that we’ve never learned before.
Yeah I'm sure after eons of infinity Lord Buddha went ...wow it's no big whoop...
and it was all the mean people who said it was something incomprehensible .

anyway your teaching is in sync with this...it's a mirror image....your genius metaphor is everywhere...wow you are enlightened, and your mind has changed everything....

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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

Post by LastLegend »

Minobu wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 5:23 pm
LastLegend wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 10:49 pm
Minobu wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 9:45 pm Well Golly GEEE SHAZZAM finally someone who knows


yeah i know it's actually no big whoop ! .
We have to take small steps...sure there will a few siddhis here and there, and that’s more of correspondence with mind of Bodhisattvas and Buddhas. We will know things naturally that we’ve never learned before.
Yeah I'm sure after eons of infinity Lord Buddha went ...wow it's no big whoop...
and it was all the mean people who said it was something incomprehensible .

anyway your teaching is in sync with this...it's a mirror image....your genius metaphor is everywhere...wow you are enlightened, and your mind has changed everything....

I just repeat what I was told.
Are you okay? You smoke something?
Make personal vows.

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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

markatex wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 1:12 am
Queequeg wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 3:01 am In Tiantai and Tendai, this teaching is interpreted to expansively embrace the immeasurable upaya. Nichiren, however, interpreted this to say, once the Essential is revealed, there is no need for the immeasurable upaya.
I think this is the point where Nichiren and Tendai diverge. It's an important difference.
In Mappo, it is almost impossible to attain bodhi through the various provisional teachings. Not because the teachings have necessarily lost efficacy, but really because the people born in Mappo are not karmically capable of benefiting from these teachings. The people who appear in Mappo have such tenuous connection to the Buddha, or even none at all. As such, they are at a very remedial stage of spiritual development - they need the seed of Buddhahood planted in their minds. Most are not in a position to cultivate this seed, but, by embracing the Daimoku, they are bound to encounter buddhas in future existences and never be separated from the Buddha.
This relates to something that's been rattling around in my head. It's often said that chanting the Daimoku allows one to attain Buddhahood in our present lives. Then there's the image of the lotus flower containing both seed and blossom at the same time as a metaphor for the Daimoku. Is Nichiren saying essentially that we do in fact attain Buddhahood in our present lives, even though we really don't? And does this tie in to the fact that the Tendai (and, by extension, Nichiren) tradition is rooted in Madhyamaka philosophy? If I had more patience, I could put that all together in a paragraph or two.
could you explain the Essential compared to upaya, please ?
_/\_
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

Post by Minobu »

LastLegend wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 1:09 am

I just repeat what I was told.
Are you okay? You smoke something?
LastLegend wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 3:56 pm

It’s not simplistic. However, if you have great expectations of what actual enlightenment is you might run into disappointment. Not just you many others as well.
ok so i have read some stuff on this Buddhist site that is just ludicrous .

So i tried a bit of humour and sarcasm with you.

I have no idea the context this person told you such a thing.

Some so called Buddhist believe and will teach that abortion is ok .It's a woman's choice it's her body.

Some have taught that in certain cases war and killing is ok as well.

total absurdities .

We are dwelling in a burning house that makes eternity look like a day in the park.

What you do , say and think is what governs your karma.

Better to die than to kill. Better to suffer what one must than kill .

To talk of enlightenment this way , as you put it or were taught...is not upaya but absurdity and ignorance.
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

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Minobu wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 2:52 pm
To talk of enlightenment this way , as you put it or were taught...is not upaya but absurdity and ignorance.
You have the right to protest and not believing. But since there are variations of understanding from different practitioners, how do you judge your is right besides killing is not okay? Strictly speaking if you are not repeating like me!
Make personal vows.

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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

Post by tkp67 »

I think only someone who has achieved permanent buddhahood could be said to posses absolutely right view on all issues at all times. As frustrating as it sounds when attached to the hallowed and sacred practice that was shared by the Buddha himself. It seemed he used many means to correct wrong view none of which where marked by frustration.

As someone whose existence is marked with unnatural aggravation and anger due to mental illness I have become very sensitive to my own shortcomings in this regard. I get it but I can't control the emotional reaction to some stimulus. Only in reflection after the fact can I reasonably see my mistaken behavior. Sometimes I can sense the wrong reaction as it leaves my mind through my senses, if only I could have caught it in time.

That doesn't mean I am perceiving that stimulus incorrectly either. It is the lack of compassion that is part of what rises due to that stimulation that causes the issues. This is what this practice represents to me and chanting seems to facilitate me catch up with my mind so it doesn't happen as often or as intensely.

I like to remind myself "at least there is a new day to exploit this cause in the name of practice"

:anjali:
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

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mansurhirbi87 wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 2:41 pm could you explain the Essential compared to upaya, please ?
_/\_
Not sure who you are directing this question to, but here is a try at an explanation.

Upaya/Hoben is often translated as Expedient Means, or Skillful Means. Its the method applied by wise teachers to bring the student along to awakening. It is illustrated in the Lotus Sutra through various parables - the Burning House, the Rich Man and Poor Son, the Medicinal Herbs, the Phantom City, the Jewel in the Robe, the Jewel in the Top Knot, and the Skilled Doctor. Its also described as the Three Vehicles/One Vehicle teaching. Its also elaborated in various other sutras and commentaries. For example, the Four Siddhanta. Etc.

The Essential Teaching is the Buddha's wisdom/awakening.

Few people are capable of actually understanding the direct teaching of the Buddha's wisdom. So, the Buddha teaches various preparatory teachings (Hoben) that condition the listener to be receptive to the Essential Teaching.

That said, if we do not hear the Essential Teaching, we will never awaken. The Buddha from time to time teaches the Essential Teaching without regard to the listener's capacity in order to plant the seed of Buddhahood in their minds. The listener is directly presented with the Buddha's awakening itself. The listener at a subtle level at that moment of the Essential Teaching enters bodhi, but the defiled, habitual mind persists and continues to obscure bodhi. Thereafter, the practice is not a pursuit of the Essential Teaching per se, but rather the perfection of what is already there in the mind.

In reality, buddhahood is our real nature. The story about planting of buddhahood is a way to emphasize that there is work to be done, that there is a path that must be walked. It counters the view that one is presently perfected and that there is nothing to work on or improve. It tends to express as people thinking that whatever they do is OK, "Because I am a Buddha as I am." This is the danger the Buddha refers to in the 16th Chapter - that if people always saw the Buddha, they'd become lax and lazy. The Buddha therefore obscures himself (the state of Buddhahood) in order to cause people to yearn for it. The Buddha reminds us of our Buddhahood from time to time because over the course of eons, we forget the teaching. In the Lotus, even Maitreya, the next Buddha of this world who is presently a bodhisattva in the heavens waiting to be born as the next Buddha, doesn't remember the last time he heard the Lotus Sutra when he was Manjusri's disciple.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

Post by LastLegend »

Minobu wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 2:52 pm
LastLegend wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 1:09 am

I just repeat what I was told.
Are you okay? You smoke something?
LastLegend wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 3:56 pm

It’s not simplistic. However, if you have great expectations of what actual enlightenment is you might run into disappointment. Not just you many others as well.
ok so i have read some stuff on this Buddhist site that is just ludicrous .

So i tried a bit of humour and sarcasm with you.

I have no idea the context this person told you such a thing.

Some so called Buddhist believe and will teach that abortion is ok .It's a woman's choice it's her body.

Some have taught that in certain cases war and killing is ok as well.

total absurdities .

We are dwelling in a burning house that makes eternity look like a day in the park.

What you do , say and think is what governs your karma.

Better to die than to kill. Better to suffer what one must than kill .

To talk of enlightenment this way , as you put it or were taught...is not upaya but absurdity and ignorance.
I get your complaint regarding upaya. Anything we say can bring people down to fall back whether that’s intentional or not. However, that’s a karma that we accept based on the choice we make and karma will seek us. What I feel isn’t clear is stages (stages of Bodhisattva) of progress and what type of mind and signs should indicate that. Speaking the truth isn’t always upaya, and this is why sometimes it’s hard for common Mahayana to understand the practice of Vajra (example, protest against eating meats) when they actually use the karma of eating meats as their practice to progress quickly. Then this makes certain acts of enlightened Bodhisattvas ‘secret.’ When you tell others, they will fall back and you will fall back as well.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

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Upaya...Madhyamaka you don’t know I grin when people keep beating this for years when it’s only a temporary raft and ignoring the basic nature Wisdom which is essential to create merit for enlightenment.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

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LastLegend wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 4:30 pm Upaya...Madhyamaka you don’t know I grin when people keep beating this for years when it’s only a temporary raft and ignoring the basic nature Wisdom which is essential to create merit for enlightenment.
:roll:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

Post by LastLegend »

Maybe having an iron will and faith towards Bodhi despite karmic conditions is upaya!
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

Thank you, Q. i asked the question to anyone that could elaborate to me. I think there is more related to the essential teaching in the 16th chapter. I know some says that Nichiren revealed that from the Shakyamuni revelation that he was enlightened in remote past it show us that he was enlightened not by his auterities or practices but by NMHK, the law that enlighten all buddhas
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Re: if everything is upaya(means) what is daimoku ?

Post by Queequeg »

LastLegend wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 5:22 pm Maybe having an iron will and faith towards Bodhi despite karmic conditions is upaya!
:roll:

Maybe you should just stop speculating.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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